Potter's Freedom!

[stranger]

JM wrote/quoted:

Romans 9:21-22 YLT hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour? (22) And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,

In v. 22 we see vessels of wrath, in v. 23 we see it contrasted with vessels of kindness. Two vessels both made by the potter with different purposes.

Hi JM,

Does the analogy from Romans 5 'in Adam' - vessels for menial use and 'in Christ' vessels 'for noble use' hold? Without pressing things too far - both vessels are a work of the potter (God).

A further thought arises from the illustration: while the potter makes two discrete types of vessels - A potter can also elect to leave some of the initial (same) lump 'unfashioned'?

It is only an illustration - the projected ramifications are interesting without discerning any change of intention of the potter for vessels of noble use.

blessings: stranger

 

[mutzrein]

Hi JM,

Does the analogy from Romans 5 'in Adam' - vessels for menial use and 'in Christ' vessels 'for noble use' hold? Without pressing things too far - both vessels are a work of the potter (God).

A further thought arises from the illustration: while the potter makes two discrete types of vessels - A potter can also elect to leave some of the initial (same) lump 'unfashioned'?

It is only an illustration - the projected ramifications are interesting without discerning any change of intention of the potter for vessels of noble use.

blessings: stranger

And thoughts worthy of consideration indeed. Thankyou stranger.

The Lord bless you

 

[Dave...]

I agree, (if I read you correctly) with both your estimations that this parable is not what the OP purposes. The parable doesn’t even claim to be in regard to salvation, but election to certain privileges and honors, even dishonors.

Romans 9 demands more than a superficial understanding.

Here are my questions for you concerning Romans 9.

Doesn't "harden" interfere with man's libertarian free will?

How would you define "harden"?

Define "Glory", as in vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for Glory.

And..."Wrath" and "destruction", as in vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

1 thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us [believers] to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 11:7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


Peace

 

[MarkT]

I agree with much of this, but we are described as clay, not finished pots.

The clay refers to the 'cup'. This has nothing to do with pottery. The 'cup' or the 'vessel' has both an 'outside' and an 'inside'. It's a useful analogy. Just look at a coffee cup. It has an inside and an outside. The 'inside' refers to the nature of the cup. So man is a vessel. However way you want to look at it, man is both a physical and a spiritual creature, made so that he can see and hear. This ability allows us to understand God and by understanding God gives growth.

As far as election goes, I think Calvinists have a better hold of it but it can be improved. In effect, if you believe in predestination, then the condition of being human is what allows us to seek for the knowledge of God. For example, a 'name' written in the 'Book of Life', known to God, is given life - born into the world and then reborn into the 'name' of God. This is a spiritual understanding. Before we were born, we were sons of God. In the beginning, the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Genesis 6:4

When we were born, as children, we were baptised and made clean and prepared for election. Through reading, we came to understand and know our Father. God has given us knowledge and insight. So it is written, 'the eagles will gather'. Nice to hear from you.

 

[unred typo]

Romans 9 demands more than a superficial understanding.

Here are my questions for you concerning Romans 9.

Doesn't "harden" interfere with man's libertarian free will?

How would you define "harden"?

Define "Glory", as in vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for Glory.

And..."Wrath" and "destruction", as in vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

1 thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us [believers] to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 11:7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Peace

You apparently are having trouble understanding this because of your own imposed definitions on words in scripture. God has appointed all believers to love and good works and on to glory. Not all believers will attain to what God has appointed for them. Just as in the parable of the talents, some will use and increase what he has given to them while others will bury theirs. Go to the parable and see what their excuse is. See what their ‘glorious end’ is. Matthew 25:13-46 ‘Appointed’ means that he had prearranged that believers would have a chance to earn the rewards he has laid up for those who use the talents and gifts that he has given them to do good works for him.

This chance is open to everyone but if you don’t even believe in God, and believe in doing evil things instead, you are not even going to want to do good. You’re going to be living according to your own fleshly lusts and doing deeds against God and good. Therefore it is ‘those who believe’ that God has appointed to do these good works. Just because he appoints them, doesn’t mean they must do them. Just because unbelievers were not appointed doesn’t mean they can’t repent and believe.

Doesn't "harden" interfere with man's libertarian free will? Sure. God can harden you to do something dumb because you need to learn a lesson. Maybe you have judged another person harshly. God can use his sovereign control over your will to do something that will cause you to be in the same position of the person you judged. You may get a mile of walking in his shoes. When you have been judged, you can see things from a different perspective.

Even Pharaoh was taught a lesson. If you read Jasher, you will see that even though the Israelites “saw those Egyptians any more forever†as Moses predicted, he didn’t die but watched his army and his power perish in front of his eyes. He was washed up on the shores of Nineveh where he became king there for a long time after. Which was a blessing for him, since he was no doubt all washed up in Egypt.

How would I define "harden"? It would be the forcing of our own wills into action or resolve against our better judgment, I suppose. You may have lust for someone else’s possessions, but reason and common sense may keep you from stealing them, not obedience to God or love of neighbor. God could harden you to the consequences and allow you the opportunity to show that it was in your heart to covet or steal. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites in subjection but he might have lost his nerve in the display of power against him. God strengthened his backbone to stand against him. God had already determined to punish the Egyptians for their sins against Israel. They were going to pay for their idolatry, cruelty, oppression and murder. Some paid with their lives. God punishes sin.
:o

 

[MarkT]

The analogy seems very simple, the potter does whatever he likes with a lump of clay and the clay can say nothing about it. [Romans 9] What the clay becomes the potter has formed it before hand to it's end. Analogy is important to teaching what is already assumed as I've stated before, it doesn't prove a point, but gives the reader a different persecptive so using analogy from the scripture is very powerful. This analogy begins with assuming that God has all the power over the clay, to make it whatever He wants it to be, for whatever His purpose is, for glory or for wrath and destruction.

God made each one of us out of the same lump, speaking of the physical body, for his purpose, which he determined beforehand. He made us a vessel for his spirit. We already know man was made from the dust of the earth. So Paul is talking about the physical living body. So Paul is saying this living body of clay was made for God's purpose, to use as he wills. Man is a vessel for God's spirit - if he made some for wrath, to be destroyed, if he made some for righteousness, to be saved. Who can argue with the Creator? There's a reason for it. The rest is vanity. In their vain imaginings some think they can will themselves to do what is right without God; like Saul, in his imagining, thought he would do God an honor and sacrifice the cattle. He was wrong. We know it is the Spirit of God that leads us to righteousness.

What we look for is truth. The temple makes the 'gold' sacred. If we are born again, if we are the temple, then our 'gold' will be sacred - our 'knowledge of God' will be true.

 

[Dave...]

Don't forget about these. the scripture that I provided with them gives some insight.

Define "Glory", as in vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for Glory.

And..."Wrath" and "destruction", as in vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

-----------------------

Doesn't "harden" interfere with man's libertarian free will? Sure. [/b]God can harden you to do something dumb because you need to learn a lesson.[/b] Maybe you have judged another person harshly. God can use his sovereign control over your will to do something that will cause you to be in the same position of the person you judged. You may get a mile of walking in his shoes. When you have been judged, you can see things from a different perspective.

But I thought you believed in libertarian free will?

How would I define "harden"? It would be the forcing of our own wills into action or resolve against our better judgment, I suppose.

Gil Rugh says "To harden our hearts means to close our hearts and minds to what God has to say." I agree.