Praying to the Saints in Heaven

[journeyman]

Would you further explain your last sentence?

Hello jaybo.
Not at all. I believe Protestants have taken mainly Pauls' teachings concerning the gospel and twisted them into heresy.
I don't want to change the subject here, but it's seems to me Catholic believers teach repentance for the forgivness of sins, which the Bible agrees with entirely.
It seems Protestants believe our Father was pleased that his Son was horse whipped, being punished in place of sinners.

 

[jaybo]

Hello jaybo.
Not at all. I believe Protestants have taken mainly Pauls' teachings concerning the gospel and twisted them into heresy.
I don't want to change the subject here, but it's seems to me Catholic believers teach repentance for the forgivness of sins, which the Bible agrees with entirely.
It seems Protestants believe our Father was pleased that his Son was horse whipped, being punished in place of sinners.

Catholics believe that they must contonually confess their sins to a priest and perform some act of penance for forgiveness. That is the ritual of the Old Testament priesthood.

God's Son took the punishment for all sins for all time.

"horse whipped"??? That is so nonsensical that there is nothing more to be said.

 

[Mungo]

I don't have a problem with other believers praying for us, but answering prayer is what God alone does. Even when they need wine at the wedding in Cana, Mary brought the request to her Son. She didn't make the wine.
With this in mind, Heb.7:25 & 1Cor.11:1 would never be coupled together, as Hebrews is teaching on the intercession of the High Priest, the forgiveness that God alone grants.
I would like for you to know that I believe in certain ways, Catholicism is much closer to what our Lord taught than Protestantism is.

I've looked through my posts in this thread and I do not see where I have suggested that Mary answers our requests, only that we ask her to pray (intercede) for us.
For example the most well known prayer is the "Hail Mary".
All that asks of Mary is that she "Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death".

Regarding the wedding at Cana she did exactly that - intercede for the couple to Jesus.

 

[journeyman]

Catholics believe that they must contonually confess their sins to a priest and perform some act of penance for forgiveness. That is the ritual of the Old Testament priesthood.

It's also what someone who is truly remorseful does. Jesus commending Zacchaeus (Lk.19:19.) Not because he was trying to buy forgiveness (which can't be done (Sng.8:7), but because he was following what the law and the Messiah said to do,

first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Mt.5:24

I agree that confession may be told to any believer, not only a priest and that no human can forgive us of sin, except sin against that person.

God's Son took the punishment for all sins for all time.

No. Gods' Son suffered in the sense of chastisement, or correction, as all of Gods' sons do.
Our great Savior allowed himself to be horribly sinned against, without bringing immediate judgement on them. The "correction" is that we need to ne more like our Father, loving toward our enemies, patient in the times of adversity, etc.
And no, Jesus isn't really the One who needed correction. We do.

"horse whipped"??? That is so nonsensical that there is nothing more to be said.

It's an expression, like "beat him like a dog." It's like mistreating people like animals.
In fact ancient Romans used whips called flagrums, which were studded with metal, so our Lord was whipped worse than a horse.

 

[journeyman]

I've looked through my posts in this thread and I do not see where I have suggested that Mary answers our requests, only that we ask her to pray (intercede) for us.
For example the most well known prayer is the "Hail Mary".
All that asks of Mary is that she "Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death".

Regarding the wedding at Cana she did exactly that - intercede for the couple to Jesus.

I'm sorry Mungo. Again I didn't mean to imply that you personally believe that Mary supplies the request. I know a Catholic woman who does pray to Mary to supply needs. She also prays to St Anthony when she loses things.
Again, I apologize for not getting the official Catholic reason of a certain belief right. It's just that building doctrine on a belief that's in error can only lead to more error.

 

[Mungo]

I'm sorry Mungo. Again I didn't mean to imply that you personally believe that Mary supplies the request. I know a Catholic woman who does pray to Mary to supply needs. She also prays to St Anthony when she loses things.
Again, I apologize for not getting the official Catholic reason of a certain belief right. It's just that building doctrine on a belief that's in error can only lead to more error.

I'm not offended. I just want to express what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
Sometimes, some prayers, sound a bit like we are expecting the Saint we pray to to directly supply what we ask for. But in reality we are asking them for their intercession. When they do ask Jesus or the Father for something for us and the request is answered it can seem like they are actually supplying it. I would be careful about judging what a person really understands when they pray to a Saint for help.

 

[jaybo]

I'm not offended. I just want to express what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
Sometimes, some prayers, sound a bit like we are expecting the Saint we pray to to directly supply what we ask for. But in reality we are asking them for their intercession. When they do ask Jesus or the Father for something for us and the request is answered it can seem like they are actually supplying it. I would be careful about judging what a person really understands when they pray to a Saint for help.

What is wrong with a person praying to God directly? Why is there any need at all for a saint -- all Christians are saints (sanctified) -- to be an intermediary?

When Jesus was asked "how should we pray?", He replied “Pray, then, in this way:

Our Father in heaven,
may your name be revered as holy.
May your kingdom come.
May your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one."

Matthew 6:9-13

There is no mention of any intercessors!

 

[journeyman]

I'm not offended. I just want to express what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
Sometimes, some prayers, sound a bit like we are expecting the Saint we pray to to directly supply what we ask for. But in reality we are asking them for their intercession. When they do ask Jesus or the Father for something for us and the request is answered it can seem like they are actually supplying it. I would be careful about judging what a person really understands when they pray to a Saint for help.

Thanks for explaining. I understand what you're saying and have no problem with it. Though it's good to know we can go right to our Savior himself, ad he's on the Throne (Heb.4:16.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for explaining. I understand what you're saying and have no problem with it. Though it's good to know we can go right to our Savior himself, ad he's on the Throne (Heb.4:16.)

I've never heard a priest say we should pray to saints. In the 23 years I've been here, at least.
The priests and one monk I know do use saints as examples. There's a culture here regarding saints. Maybe because so many were martyrs and died terrible deaths that the church felt they were due some special consideration.

I don't know why a person would pray to a saint. Only God is omnipresent. Could they even hear prayer? OTOH, who could be sure? Jesus never mentioned this.

 

[Mungo]

What is wrong with a person praying to God directly?

Nothing wrong with at all. Indeed we should, and do, pray directly to God. But that doesn't preclude asking others to pray for us.

Why is there any need at all for a saint -- all Christians are saints (sanctified) -- to be an intermediary?

When Jesus was asked "how should we pray?", He replied “Pray, then, in this way:

Our Father in heaven,
may your name be revered as holy.
May your kingdom come.
May your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one."

Matthew 6:9-13

There is no mention of any intercessors!

So according to your logic:

1. the only prayer we are allowed to pray is the "Our Father". No other prayer is allowed.

2. We must only pray directly to the Father. We are not allowed to pray to Jesus.

3. Paul was wrong to ask other people to pray for him.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
And from Hebrews
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)

 

[Mungo]

I've never heard a priest say we should pray to saints. In the 23 years I've been here, at least.
The priests and one monk I know do use saints as examples. There's a culture here regarding saints. Maybe because so many were martyrs and died terrible deaths that the church felt they were due some special consideration.

At Mass on Sundays and Feast days we confess our sins with this prayer:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

On the feast of St. Blaise the priest blesses peoples throats with the words:
“Through the intercession of St. Blaise, Bishop and Martyr, may God deliver you from every disease of the throat and from every other illness. In the name of the Father, † and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

I don't know why a person would pray to a saint. Only God is omnipresent. Could they even hear prayer? OTOH, who could be sure? Jesus never mentioned this.

You asked that before. Here is my answer (post #6)

We don't know the exact mechanism but we believe that it is by God’s will that they are allowed to hear our prayers to them. God makes things known to people as he wills and makes possible.

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." (Acts 9:10-12)

God communicates to Ananias that Paul is praying and that he (Ananias) must go and lay hands on Paul. God communicates to Paul that Ananias will come to him and lay hands on him to receive his sight. Neither are omniscient yet they know things that only God can know. They know because God wills that they know and makes it known to them.

God has only given us glimpses of what goes on in heaven. Paul was taken up into heaven “and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” (2Cor 12:4). We cannot expect to understand God’s ways in any detail. Yet we do know some things, if not in details.

We know that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
"I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." (Lk 15:7)
"And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I [the angel Raphael] brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One." (Tobit 12:12)

We are also told:
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)

If the Saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).

This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).

So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect.

Moreover the Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.

 

[GodsGrace]

At Mass on Sundays and Feast days we confess our sins with this prayer:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

On the feast of St. Blaise the priest blesses peoples throats with the words:
“Through the intercession of St. Blaise, Bishop and Martyr, may God deliver you from every disease of the throat and from every other illness. In the name of the Father, † and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”




You asked that before. Here is my answer (post #6)

Are you saying my husband can see me from heaven? Does how I'm doing here where he left me, affect how he feels?
It brings up too many questions.
I must say that I'm not sure about everything Catholic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing wrong with at all. Indeed we should, and do, pray directly to God. But that doesn't preclude asking others to pray for us.



So according to your logic:

1. the only prayer we are allowed to pray is the "Our Father". No other prayer is allowed.

2. We must only pray directly to the Father. We are not allowed to pray to Jesus.

3. Paul was wrong to ask other people to pray for him.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
And from Hebrews
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)

In no. 3, paul was alive.

 

[Highway54]

evenifigoalone asked in another thread "what can you tell me about praying to the saints?"
This is a big topic and I think deserves a separate thread.
I'll cover this briefly and then expand if there are any questions.

I believe the practice of praying to Mary and Saints in heaven is reasonable and scripturally valid. I want to make three propositions and demonstrate them from scripture.

But first, what do we mean by pray to them?
At it's root the word pray means to ask or entreat, so we are asking them for their intercession just as we ask others here on earth to interceded for us.

1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
This is biblical. Paul asks people to pray for him
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20).
See also , Col 4:3, Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1.

Paul writes to Timothy "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men…" (1Tim 2:1)

2. The Saints in heaven are validly included in that
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.

“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)

When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.

3. They can and do intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Then consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Best to take Jesus' advice in my opinion Mungo and pray to God. Mat 6:9,10; following his example Jn 17

 

[Mungo]

Are you saying my husband can see me from heaven? Does how I'm doing here where he left me, affect how he feels?
It brings up too many questions.
I must say that I'm not sure about everything Catholic.

We know from scripture that those who are in heaven are aware of what is going on on earth.

 

[Mungo]

In no. 3, paul was alive.

The Saints in heaven are alive.
But the point is that Paul asked others to pray for him.

 

[Mungo]

Best to take Jesus' advice in my opinion Mungo and pray to God. Mat 6:9,10; following his example Jn 17

See post #70 above.
Also see the OP.

 

[journeyman]

I've never heard a priest say we should pray to saints. In the 23 years I've been here, at least.
The priests and one monk I know do use saints as examples. There's a culture here regarding saints. Maybe because so many were martyrs and died terrible deaths that the church felt they were due some special consideration.

I don't know why a person would pray to a saint. Only God is omnipresent. Could they even hear prayer? OTOH, who could be sure? Jesus never mentioned this.

The way Mungo explained it, it's a request for another saint (living or dead) to agree on a request. God knows our needs before any request is made.
The believers who were persecuted to death showed conformity to the image of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

The way Mungo explained it, it's a request for another saint (living or dead) to agree on a request. God knows our needs before any request is made.
The believers who were persecuted to death showed conformity to the image of Christ.

Yes J.
I understand.
But could persons in heaven hear us?
If I were in heaven I wouldn't want to know what's going on down here.

 

[Mungo]

Yes J.
I understand.
But could persons in heaven hear us?
If I were in heaven I wouldn't want to know what's going on down here.

Consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

The angels in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents - Lk 15:7 & 10 -so they must know that a sinner on earth has repented.

The souls under the altar know that the time of their vindication has not yet come on the earth (Rev 6:10)

If they know what is going on on earth it is because God wills that they know and He will make it possible.