pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Randy]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Jesus Christ warns in matt 24 mark 13 & luke 21 of false Christs coming claiming to be Him prior to the 2nd advent rapture


paul never says Jesus Christ parousia is prior to the tribulation, men claim paul does,
paul teaches the same post trib parousia as Jesus Christ in II thess 2 and warns believers to let no man deceive us for the Lord's Day (matt 24:29-31) is not "at hand" and shall not come except a falling away first and satan is revealed to be worshiped.
I see adding "pre trib" to pauls words leading many astray


Matthew 24:21-31

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


the saved dead rise as He rose, no need for a Christian to remain in the graves when the First resurrection started in matt 27 when Jesus gave up the ghost and rose again, the graves opened and the saints walked into the streets proving HE has defeated death. Christians continue to partake in the first resurrection till Jesus returns with them jude 1:14-15,rev 19



15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


prevent=precede them, we can't precede them because they are already there, the Lord says in matt 24:29-31 His parousia is after the tribulation not before the tribulation. paul quotes matt 24:30-31:



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


AER=breath g109 =spiritual bodies g4151 , paul never said the rapture is pre trib

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

when Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation the heavens and earth will be on fire and the elements melt II pet 3 so of course we ALL change in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

In Matt 13:30 Jesus tells believers the tares are gathered first. when satan and his false Christs come they will be gathering tares , because of a teaching that Jesus parousia is before HE said it will be.

You can also use Rev 16:15 which is certainly a coming of the Lord and is consistent with what Paul taught in 2 Thess 2:8 and the (at that time) in Daniel 12. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods wrath. Rev 15:1 (I am one who doesn't think Gods wrath has even begun) And the Bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. Rev 16:10

Rev 11 two witnesses are killed after their testimony (1260 days) by the beast. The beasts reign is 42 months. Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. Scripture suggests the beast is released at the 5th trump Rev 9:1 so there appears to be overlap of the 5th to 7th trump with the bowl judgments.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

=jasoncran;832560]so jesus is coming back to start another church?

* no the church is a group of believers assembled together, we are members of His body already established

if isreal , of which I am a PART of. is to believe then How cant it be that a lot of saved jews are removed to save another group of sinning jews and gentiles in the millennium.


*Jesus Christ died for all nations tongues and kindred allowing salvation for the Judeans, Israel and all gentiles. there's no difference in Jews or Gentiles now only believers and unbelievers. Jesus tells us in matt 13:30 the tares are gathered first and rev 7 names all 12 tribes of the 144000 and includes the great multitude of gentiles also who make it out of the tribulation.

I disagree with the I've come to fly you away and many will be deceived because of mistiming the Lord's parousia as if before the trib when He said after.
\



isreal isn't land btw,. its the people. even the jews teach this. my jewish family isn't considered non-Jewish because they live in America.

*sure is and there's several tribes coming home besides Judah

I a preterist. I don't deny his return at all. I don't take scriptures out of context to make an eschatological argument.


*amen then you believe Jesus Christ when He says His return is after the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

if isreal is just land then why doesn't paul it call that? if he isn't saying isreal like I am show me why im wrong?

jesus died for land? I didn't know that. uhm if there is isreal in any millennium they will be doing what for GOD. reconciling the nations unto him. if they are then that makes them what? a nudder body of beleivers to be priests. a church. that cant be. the cross is enough, there is NO need for a levite in Christ. my lineage means NOTHING to jesus NOW.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive


Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hey Jason
Israel is not "just land",it's God's favorite place as HE married Israel and divorced Israel. Jesus Christ came and died for all who believe On Him and ask for forgiveness.Israel today is believers in Christ Jesus as the veil has been torn and all are allowed in now according to God's will for the gentiles.That doesn't mean heritege doesn't matter or has it's place in God's will .

As you know race doesn't matter anymore as far as salvation, no difference in Jew or Gentile anymore. All land,cars,houses all this will dissolve and the heavens and earth will be on fire when Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation according to 2 pet 3. However we do see in rev 7 12000 from each tribe of Israel and the great multitude of all nations kindred and tongues who make it out of the great tribulation of false Christs many are mistakenly calling a pre trib rapture of Jesus Christ.

We as believers look for a new heaven and earth amen!?


We as believers in Jesus Christ also know either one is a believer in Jesus Christ the Lord or they refuse Him, no back doors in heaven

the Post trib harvest/rapture/gathering of the elect/believers/saints/martyrs/saved dead returning with Christ, etc is for All who believe on Jesus and refuse to worship satan during his coming "unholy event" prior to the 2nd advent & rapture of the church

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Where is the rapture in the Old Testament?

[MENTION=69809]n2thelight[/MENTION]: Where is the church in the Old Testament?

In 1 Thess. 4, it's the church in view.

Believers agree I thess 4 is concerning believers, and as believers we know believers make up the body of Jesus Christ, amen? yet where we must draw concern is the timing of I thess 4. Jesus Christ says His 2nd advent parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation in matt 24:29-31 and Jesus warns believers prior to His 2nd advent false Christs come claiming to be Him and for us not to follow after them.
paul warns believers also the Lord's parousia shall not come except the falling away 1st and satan be revealed to be worshiped (purging of the tares 1st matt 13:30)

We agree I thess 4 is concerning we believers/the church/saints/the congregation, where we may differ is the timing, no verse exists in scripture that says Christ Jesus is returning before the tribulation, men teach that not scriptures and certainly not Jesus Christ(matt 24:21-31,mark 13:19-28,luke 21:8,19-29,II thess 2:1-12,rev 19)

satan has invented the perfect cover for his coming, he has false prophets teaching a mistiming of the Lord's coming to confuse and deceive many into following after the false Christs claiming to be Jesus when believers should be refusing to follow after them as Jesus Christ warned us not to. good talking to you by the way.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Israel was the Church in the Old Testament.....

This is that Moses, which . . . was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina. (Acts 7:37, 38)

That's one reason why one cannot seperate the two

Any gathered company prior to Pentecost wasn't a church in the New Testament sense.

It's the church in the New Testament sense that is in view in 1 Thess. 4.

Not sure Im understanding you.....

Since the New Testament church by definition began at Pentecost, anything that came before, which might be describable as a gathering or a 'church' wasn't a New Testament church by definition. And the Rapture of 1 Thess. 4 is linked with the New Testament church.

Yes I thess 4 is connected with the church,believers,saints etc Jesus sets the timing of I thess 4 as post trib which is why paul quotes matt 24:30-31 and also teaches post trib parousia in 2 thess 2

the church is the body of Jesus Christ, Christ said He built His church on the rock when talking to peter so if the church didn't begin till Pentecost then how did the thief go to paradise with Jesus and how did the graves open up and many walked out into the street with Jesus Christ? what I's saying is the church is the multi-membered body of Jesus Christ, it began with Him through God's grace seeing Christ is the cornerstone & first fruits.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

and yet your idea says that the church will be only gentile in heaven!

I am NOT gentile nor was most of the early church.

you forget that neither was abel,noah, nahor, enoch, and all those up to Abraham who died in faith. where are they in this resurrection.

 

[lecoop]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Not sure Im understanding you.....

Since the New Testament church by definition began at Pentecost, anything that came before, which might be describable as a gathering or a 'church' wasn't a New Testament church by definition. And the Rapture of 1 Thess. 4 is linked with the New Testament church.

Yes I thess 4 is connected with the church,believers,saints etc Jesus sets the timing of I thess 4 as post trib which is why paul quotes matt 24:30-31 and also teaches post trib parousia in 2 thess 2

1 Thes. 4 is ALL about the church. PAUL set the timing of this event as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Jesus never talked about the rapture, for Paul writes that it was a mystery. Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament with revelation knowledge of the rapture. it is 100% Pauline doctrine. Paul did not quote Matthew! It is almost certain that 1 Thes. was written before Matthew was written.

Paul does NOT teach a posttrib rapture in 2 Thes, as he would be contradicting Himself in his first letter. Paul explains HOW someone can know for certain they are IN the day of the Lord. IF they see the man of sin revealed, then they KNOW the day has begun and they are in it. But before the man of sin can be revealed, FIRST the one restraining his revealing must be taken out of the way. So when the church has departed or is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin is revealed and THEN one can know they are IN the day of the Lord. It is not postrib at all; in fact it is very PREtrib.

Lecoop

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

=lecoop;833263]

1 Thes. 4 is ALL about the church. PAUL set the timing of this event as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Jesus never talked about the rapture, for Paul writes that it was a mystery. Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament with revelation knowledge of the rapture. it is 100% Pauline doctrine. Paul did not quote Matthew! It is almost certain that 1 Thes. was written before Matthew was written.


no paul says BY THE WORD OF THE LORD in I thess and paul NEVER says the rapture is pre tribulation, if so please show us where. Yes Jesus Christ did teach the rapture is after the tribulation of false Christs/satan in matt 24:21-31,mark 13:19-28,luke 21:19-29 and paul in II thess 2. yeah it was a mystery to the Corintians who never heard about it the same as it's still a mystery to many today who haven't heard about the lord, yet paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is pre trib, men lie and add that timing to the scriptures.


LOL, paul the only one who knew about the rapture, have you never read ,matt 13 concerning the gathering of tares first (pre trib rapture to satan) and the harvest being the end of the world otr have you never read where God says HE will gather back His people to Israel.?


paul didn't quote matt? thank God the massorah used as the appendix in the KJV makes sure believers know paul did quote matt 24:30-31. The Lord and paul warned believers NOT to be deceived for false Christs come claiming to be Jesus, satan comes claiming to be God PRIOR to HIS parousia

pre trib rapture= purging of tares
after the trib
post trib rapture=matt 24:29-31


Paul does NOT teach a posttrib rapture in 2 Thes, as he would be contradicting Himself in his first letter.


* good try, paul DOES teach post trib contradicting false teachers who try to add pre trib to I thess 4, paul NEVER once says Jesus Christ parouisa is before the tribulation of false Christs as that would make paul teaching the opposite of Christ. What verse does paul teach the Lord's parousia is pre trib?

paul warns in II thess 2 the Lord's Day is NOT "at hand" shall NOT come except the falling away 1st and revealing of satan to be worshiped so false teachers make out as if the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ is multiple Days.


Paul explains HOW someone can know for certain they are IN the day of the Lord. IF they see the man of sin revealed, then they KNOW the day has begun and they are in it. But before the man of sin can be revealed, FIRST the one restraining his revealing must be taken out of the way.

* yes michael will kick satan out of heaven to earth



So when the church has departed or is taken out of the way,


* you add "church" to the scripture, the church can't be taking out nor the Holy Spirit because Jesus Christ tells we believers that we will be betrayed beaten and delivered up to synagouges and death yet for us not to meditae on what we will say for He will give us what to say by the Holy Spirit..., and hoiw can satan make war with saiunts that already flew away?


THEN the man of sin is revealed and THEN one can know they are IN the day of the Lord. It is not postrib at all; in fact it is very PREtrib.

Lecoop[/QUOTE]

:biglol Lets see what Jesus says:


24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?


29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.


30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;



39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

some don't understand these things because they refuse to believe Jesus Christ



Matthew 24:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Mark 13:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Mark 13:19-29

King James Version (KJV)

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


sadly here's what false teachers seduce many into "thinking" is a pre trib rapture:


21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


the tares "fall away" to satan's event above (taken 1st) while the wheat remains faithful and refuses to follow after the false Christs,worship satan/his image, or take his mark:



24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.


Luke 21:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Matthew 24:21-31

21-28 is what pre tribbers think is a pre trib rapture:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Jesus warns of those who claim HE comes before HE really does:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

the post trib rapture taught by Jesus Christ and paul in 2 th2:1-12:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus Christ teaches His parousia is after the tribulation of false Christs, Jesus Christ says the tares are gathered first NOT the church, I'll stick with what Jesus actually says not what men try to make out what paul says by adding "pre trib" to pauls words to lead many to be deceived into falling for matt 24:21-28

 

[Deborah13]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

who is in view? the church or Israel

Who is in view? The Messianic body if Christ, Jew and Gentile are one, there is no difference in Christ.

The original olive tree, the root and Christ. Some of the original olive tree accepted the Messiah, some did not they were cut off, but if they accept the Messiah (born again) they will be grafted back in. We are from the wild tree, we were grafted in. Into one body of Christ.

Jacob = Israel = Jesus

Abraham's Seed = Jesus "The Promise was made to the Seed"

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The Messianic body of Christ (jew and gentile) is the seed of Christ.

"Not all those of Israel are Israel" per Paul
"All Israel will be saved" who does Paul say is Israel?

This whole understanding changed my view of the rapture, the tribulation, etc. I don't pretend to understand it all.
But I'm pretty sure that no temple built in Jerusalem will be holy. So how could (the antichrist) be standing in a holy place? Jesus is the temple, no evil in Him.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

who is in view? the church or Israel

Who is in view? The Messianic body if Christ, Jew and Gentile are one, there is no difference in Christ.

The original olive tree, the root and Christ. Some of the original olive tree accepted the Messiah, some did not they were cut off, but if they accept the Messiah (born again) they will be grafted back in. We are from the wild tree, we were grafted in. Into one body of Christ.

Jacob = Israel = Jesus

Abraham's Seed = Jesus "The Promise was made to the Seed"

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,†as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,†that is, Christ.
Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The Messianic body of Christ (jew and gentile) is the seed of Christ.

"Not all those of Israel are Israel" per Paul
"All Israel will be saved" who does Paul say is Israel?

This whole understanding changed my view of the rapture, the tribulation, etc. I don't pretend to understand it all.
But I'm pretty sure that no temple built in Jerusalem will be holy. So how could (the antichrist) be standing in a holy place? Jesus is the temple, no evil in Him.

Deb the goats muddy up the water by trying confuse with Israel/the church , the Day of the Lord/the Day of Christ and pre trib flyaway then the 2nd advent.

Good post above as there is NO difference between Jew and Gentile as rev 7 makes clear both 144000 AND a great multitude of gentiles makes it OUT of the tribulation. We are the temple, IF one allows satan into the temple God destroys them:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


1 Corinthians 3:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.




2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?






glad to see your ready to stand FOR Jesus instead of flying away with false Christs matt 24:21-31

 

[Deborah13]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Israel is not "just land",it's God's favorite place as HE married Israel and divorced Israel. Jesus Christ came and died for all who believe On Him and ask for forgiveness.Israel today is believers in Christ Jesus as the veil has been torn and all are allowed in now according to God's will for the gentiles.That doesn't mean heritege doesn't matter or has it's place in God's will .

Please use scripture. The promise was made to the Seed. Jesus. What was the promise? It still stands. The covenant under the Law of Moses has been done away. All that stands, is the promise made through Abraham to the Seed.
If I am wrong, which is the same thing [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] believes, I think. Then please provide scripture that shows something else.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Israel is not "just land",it's God's favorite place as HE married Israel and divorced Israel. Jesus Christ came and died for all who believe On Him and ask for forgiveness.Israel today is believers in Christ Jesus as the veil has been torn and all are allowed in now according to God's will for the gentiles.That doesn't mean heritage doesn't matter or has it's place in God's will .

Please use scripture. The promise was made to the Seed. Jesus. What was the promise? It still stands.

Ephesians 3:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.




The covenant under the Law of Moses has been done away.
*are the ten commandments done away with or still in effect and please give a short explanation as to why

All that stands, is the promise made through Abraham to the Seed.
If I am wrong, which is the same thing @jasoncran believes, I think. Then please provide scripture that shows something else.


no difference between the Jew and gentile anymore, the promise is for gentiles as it is for Jews.

rev 7 makes it clear 144000 Judeans /Israel AND a great multitude of gentiles makes it out of the tribulation of false Christs aka the purging of tares by claims of pre trib rapture. Gentiles also wash their garments in the blood of Jesus Christ and partake of the promise

good talking with you

 

[gr8grace]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Jesus Christ warns in matt 24 mark 13 & luke 21 of false Christs coming claiming to be Him prior to the 2nd advent rapture


paul never says Jesus Christ parousia is prior to the tribulation, men claim paul does,
paul teaches the same post trib parousia as Jesus Christ in II thess 2 and warns believers to let no man deceive us for the Lord's Day (matt 24:29-31) is not "at hand" and shall not come except a falling away first and satan is revealed to be worshiped.
I see adding "pre trib" to pauls words leading many astray


Matthew 24:21-31

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


the saved dead rise as He rose, no need for a Christian to remain in the graves when the First resurrection started in matt 27 when Jesus gave up the ghost and rose again, the graves opened and the saints walked into the streets proving HE has defeated death. Christians continue to partake in the first resurrection till Jesus returns with them jude 1:14-15,rev 19



15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


prevent=precede them, we can't precede them because they are already there, the Lord says in matt 24:29-31 His parousia is after the tribulation not before the tribulation. paul quotes matt 24:30-31:



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


AER=breath g109 =spiritual bodies g4151 , paul never said the rapture is pre trib

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

when Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation the heavens and earth will be on fire and the elements melt II pet 3 so of course we ALL change in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

In Matt 13:30 Jesus tells believers the tares are gathered first. when satan and his false Christs come they will be gathering tares , because of a teaching that Jesus parousia is before HE said it will be.

The truth of the Pre trib does not harm anyone. In fact it saves people from deception.....example:

If one believes in the pre trib rapture not one person or thing is going to walk up to them and say ,"I am the Christ" and have that person believe it. Why? Because we are poof, just gone. Even if the devil himself came up to one who believes in the Pre trib rapture and said," I am Here for you, come with me I will rapture you out." That believer won't go, because it is not described that way in the Scriptures. No person or thing Gets to deceive that believer because that believer knows that it Just HAPPENS, in the twinkle of an eye.

But if you are Mid trib or post trib you are open to the idea of Going through certain things that God will not have His believers go through. So they are watching for things that they are not going to go through,but think they are. And that leaves them open to all sorts of deception before Christ comes to rapture his Church out.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Jesus Christ warns in matt 24 mark 13 & luke 21 of false Christs coming claiming to be Him prior to the 2nd advent rapture


paul never says Jesus Christ parousia is prior to the tribulation, men claim paul does,
paul teaches the same post trib parousia as Jesus Christ in II thess 2 and warns believers to let no man deceive us for the Lord's Day (matt 24:29-31) is not "at hand" and shall not come except a falling away first and satan is revealed to be worshiped.
I see adding "pre trib" to pauls words leading many astray


Matthew 24:21-31

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


the saved dead rise as He rose, no need for a Christian to remain in the graves when the First resurrection started in matt 27 when Jesus gave up the ghost and rose again, the graves opened and the saints walked into the streets proving HE has defeated death. Christians continue to partake in the first resurrection till Jesus returns with them jude 1:14-15,rev 19



15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


prevent=precede them, we can't precede them because they are already there, the Lord says in matt 24:29-31 His parousia is after the tribulation not before the tribulation. paul quotes matt 24:30-31:



16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


AER=breath g109 =spiritual bodies g4151 , paul never said the rapture is pre trib

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

when Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation the heavens and earth will be on fire and the elements melt II pet 3 so of course we ALL change in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

In Matt 13:30 Jesus tells believers the tares are gathered first. when satan and his false Christs come they will be gathering tares , because of a teaching that Jesus parousia is before HE said it will be.

The truth of the Pre trib does not harm anyone. In fact it saves people from deception.....example:

* no pre trib is added to the words of paul, paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is pre trib and how can paul change the words of the Lord in matt 24:21-31?


If one believes in the pre trib rapture not one person or thing is going to walk up to them and say ,"I am the Christ" and have that person believe it. Why? Because we are poof, just gone.

* not according to Jesus Christ:

Matthew 13:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 13:36-43

King James Version (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 13:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.



Matthew 24:21-31

King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mark 13:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Mark 13:19-28

King James Version (KJV)

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:


Luke 21:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


Even if the devil himself came up to one who believes in the Pre trib rapture and said," I am Here for you, come with me I will rapture you out." That believer won't go, because it is not described that way in the Scriptures. No person or thing Gets to deceive that believer because that believer knows that it Just HAPPENS, in the twinkle of an eye.

*the devil won't be wearing a red jumpsuit with a pitchfork and his false Christs won't have horns, they disguise themselves as Christ and God leading many to be deceived because false prophets add "pre trib to the scriptures instead of believing what Jesus Christ says and take heed.



But if you are Mid trib or post trib you are open to the idea of Going through certain things that God will not have His believers go through. So they are watching for things that they are not going to go through,but think they are. And that leaves them open to all sorts of deception before Christ comes to rapture his Church out.

* Christ Jesus says the tares are gathered first and HE comes after the tribulation , I'll stick with Jesus.

please post the verse that you say claims Jesus Christ comes pre trib? Because Jesus says His coming and our gathering is after the trib as does paul in II thess 2:1-12 who warns believers to let no man DECEIVE them for the Lord's Day (matt 24:29-31) shall NOT come except the falling away first and satan be revealed to be worshiped, paul repeats in vs.8-9 the Lord is him who's parousia is AFTER the working of satan.

pre trib rapture=purging of tares who fall away to false Christs claiming to be Jesus and satan claiming to be God
after the trib matt 24:29 mark 13 luke 21 rev 19
post trib rapture= the gathering of wheat to Jesus Christ returning to earth with saved dead

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Timing is critical which is why Jesus Christs warns believers to take heed least we be deceived

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" , as men claim he does. men lie and claim paul says that leading many to fall away as tares to the false Christs claiming to be Jesus

 

[jasoncran]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

[MENTION=96743]Watchmen for Christ[/MENTION] , what is the purpose of the millennial reign of Christ. I am not saying that land isn't promised to the Hebrew just that the Hebrews will NOT be doing the torah as under moses.

 

[gr8grace]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Timing is critical which is why Jesus Christs warns believers to take heed least we be deceived

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" , as men claim he does. men lie and claim paul says that leading many to fall away as tares to the false Christs claiming to be Jesus

Just curious,

What are the specific ramifications for Christians for believing the Pre trib?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

@Watchmen for Christ , what is the purpose of the millennial reign of Christ. I am not saying that land isn't promised to the Hebrew just that the Hebrews will NOT be doing the torah as under moses.

the Millennial reign is a time of teaching the hard way for those who didn't make it in the first resurrection's grace. satan is bound 1000yrs so truth can not be confused till satan is released for his last and final call to eternal death rev 20.

we who refuse to worship satan will reign with Christ Jesus, see eze 37 to the end of the book for there's more written about the millennium here than anyother book in the bible. ;)

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Timing is critical which is why Jesus Christs warns believers to take heed least we be deceived

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" , as men claim he does. men lie and claim paul says that leading many to fall away as tares to the false Christs claiming to be Jesus

Just curious,

What are the specific ramifications for Christians for believing the Pre trib?

Because Jesus Christ told us His parousia is after the tribulation so why would a real believer think different?

ramifications:

false Christs comes claiming to be Jesus with signs and lying wonders to seduce away from HIS wedding and to satan claiming to be God.

sadly many will follow them thinking it's really Jesus come to fly them away when Jesus Christ warned us believers to take HEED and not be deceived.

Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first and that's just what the false Christs will be doing, harvesting tares away from the Lord's wheat

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

paul tells us why so many fall away to the working of satan:


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


God makes sure HIS Son has a virgin bride by sending the seducer to see who has read and believed the actual words of Jesus Christ and who has believed a lie, satan and his false Christs will gather the whores of babylon from among the lord's Virgins (spiritually) first then the Lord comes for we who remain faithful till the end.AMEN!

 

[gr8grace]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy of satan to deceive

Timing is critical which is why Jesus Christs warns believers to take heed least we be deceived

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" , as men claim he does. men lie and claim paul says that leading many to fall away as tares to the false Christs claiming to be Jesus

Just curious,

What are the specific ramifications for Christians for believing the Pre trib?

Because Jesus Christ told us His parousia is after the tribulation so why would a real believer think different?

ramifications:

false Christs comes claiming to be Jesus with signs and lying wonders to seduce away from HIS wedding and to satan claiming to be God.

sadly many will follow them thinking it's really Jesus come to fly them away when Jesus Christ warned us believers to take HEED and not be deceived.

Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first and that's just what the false Christs will be doing, harvesting tares away from the Lord's wheat

Yeah, so you didn't read my post. Pre trib believers wont fall for that. no one has a chance to try to convince us that "they are here for us" we are just GONE. No one has a chance to explain things. Its in the twinkle of an eye.

Mid trib or post trib people have a chance at that deception though, before the rapture happens.