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Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-Tribulation?

so what is the other trees in that parable? learn ye the parable of the fig tree ..the Lord did say that. if were to take that chapter literally then Jerusalem falls and doesn't come back, it doesn't say twice it shall be trampled upon until the time of the gentiles ends. but once. so what part is to be said fulfilled.
I take the bible as literal as possible, in that chapter all is all. all these things, so does Jerusalem fall again? yes or no.
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Let's just focus on Jerusalem, and what Christ prophesied regarding His beloved city:
1. Luke 13:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Here Christ prophesies that (1) Jerusalem and the Temple will be left desolate (because they would be destroyed in 70 AD) and (2) when He returns again to Jerusalem at His Second Coming, Israel will say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord. This Scripture itself tells us that Jerusalem will be in existence once again after its destruction and Christ will return to believing Israel.

2. Luke 19:
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Here Christ prophesies about five things which would happen in 70 AD: (1) the Romans would "cast a trench" around the city; (2) they would totally surround the city; (3) they would prevent the inhabitants of Jerusalem from escaping; (4) they would level Jerusalem and the Temple to the ground; and (5) they would destroy all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Everything came true as predicted, but that was not the end of Jerusalem altogether.

3. Luke 21:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
This is a prophecy for those living in 32 AD that in 70 AD they would see Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies and desolated by them.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
This is an explanation of why Jerusalem would be destroyed. God would bring judgment on Israel for their unbelief and disobedience when God sent Messiah to them.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Here Christ tells us that (1) the Jews would be led away captive, (2) Jerusalem would be occupied and desecrated by Gentiles, and (3) there would be a limit to the "times of the Gentiles", meaning that God would once again resume His gracious dealings with Israel and Jerusalem This is confirmed in Rom 9-11.

Now when we go to the book of Revelation, we find that Jerusalem will once again be surrounded by its enemies (Rev 16):
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Armageddon (Heb Har Megiddo = hill of slaughter) is located about 50 miles north of Jerusalem in the valley of Jezreel and the plain of Esdraelon. Once again Jerusalem will be under seige and the Lord Jesus Christ will come in power and great glory to deliver Jerusalem and redeem Israel (Rev 19:11-21).

Will there be a Millenium after this? Absolutely (Rev 20:1-6). Is Matthew 24 all there is regarding this subject? Absolutely not.
 
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Kathi said:
The Bible teaches that the 1000 year Kingdom will be literal.How to you interpret(255, 0, 0)] Zechariah 14:4,9;Jeremiah 23:5-8;Daniel 7:13-14,27?
(0, 0, 0)]To read the Bible other than the way God intended is dangerous because of
(255, 0, 0)]Revelation 22:18-19
A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
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so I should take that chapter in zeke where it says literally about the temple being built? uhm so god doesn't have control. satan is so powerful that we don't have any way of getting any thing from god? so its like that. are you god? so what is sun to you? is it some literal object that looses its heat in thirds? one third of the loose of heat does what to life. the average temp of the state of hawai yearly at the coast is 70, drop that by one third.
if I were to take that literally.zecheriah 14?

you cherry picked that make that doctrine. when will this happen? zechariah 14 in full context, the city falls and the LORD not the enemy did it. sounds like a judgement as before with Egypt and also babylon

14 Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst.
2 And I have gathered all the nations unto Jerusalem to battle, And captured hath been the city, And spoiled have been the houses, And the women are lain with, Gone forth hath half the city in a removal, And the remnant of the people are not cut off from the city.
3 And gone forth hath Jehovah, And He hath fought against those nations, As in the day of His fighting in a day of conflict.
4 And stood have His feet, in that day, On the mount of Olives, That [is] before Jerusalem eastward, And cleft hath been the mount of Olives at its midst, To the east, and to the west, a very great valley, And removed hath the half of the mount towards the north. And its half towards the south.
5 And ye have fled [to] the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones [are] with Thee.
6 And it hath come to pass, in that day, The precious light is not, it is dense darkness,
7 And there hath been one day, It is known to Jehovah, not day nor night, And it hath been at evening-time -- there is light.
8 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Go forth do living waters from Jerusalem, Half of them unto the eastern sea, And half of them unto the western sea, In summer and in winter it is.
9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.
10 Changed is all the land as a plain, From Gebo to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, And she hath been high, and hath dwelt in her place, Even from the gate of Benjamin To the place of the first gate, unto the front gate, And from the tower of Hananeel, Unto the wine-vats of the king.
11 And they have dwelt in her, And destruction is no more, And Jerusalem hath dwelt confidently.
12 And this is the plague with which Jehovah Doth plague all the peoples who have warred against Jerusalem, He hath consumed away its flesh, And it is standing on its feet, And its eyes are consumed in their holes, And its tongue is consumed in their mouth.
13 And it hath come to pass, in that day, A great destruction [from] Jehovah is among them, And they have seized each the hand of his neighbour, And gone up hath his hand against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And also Judah is fought with in Jerusalem, And gathered hath been the force of all the nations round about, Gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so is the plague of the horse, of the mule, Of the camel, and of the ass, And of all the cattle that are in these camps, As this plague.
16 And it hath come to pass, Every one who hath been left of all the nations, Who are coming in against Jerusalem, They have also gone up from year to year, To bow themselves to the King, Jehovah of Hosts, And to celebrate the feast of the booths.
17 And it hath come to pass, That he who doth not go up of the families of the land unto Jerusalem, To bow himself to the King, Jehovah of Hosts, Even on them there is no shower.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, nor come in, Then not on them is the plague With which Jehovah doth plague the nations That go not up to celebrate the feast of booths.
19 This is the punishment of the sin of Egypt, And the punishment of the sin of all the nations, That go not up to celebrate the feast of booths.
20 In that day there is on bells of the horse, `Holy to Jehovah,' And the pots in the house of Jehovah Have been as bowls before the altar.
21 And every pot in Jerusalem, and in Judah, Have been holy to Jehovah of Hosts, And all those sacrificing have come in, And have taken of them, and boiled in them, And there is no merchant any more in the house of Jehovah of Hosts in that day!
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

note the last verse is that to be taken literally?
you said to take ONLY chapter 9 and 4 literally. how come? the last one says the law is in effect!
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NO I will not, and is there an and is what? where is the and all trees being fulfilled? what nations ? Egypt? modern Egypt isn't ancient Egypt. ancienct Egyptians of moses day dindnt speak Arabic, they didn't speak greek either which they would have done in Pauls day. the Ptolemaic dynasty was central to that.

I don't if I can help it pick and choose what is to be taken literaly . the plain language unless otherwise said by the bible is to be taken in context per zecheriah it says in that day. what day and how many days of that prophecies aren't the same? when is the destruction of Jerusalem to occur? how long will the captivity be before he returns? or is it but one day?
 
jasonc said:
so I should take that chapter in zeke where it says literally about the temple being built? uhm so god doesn't have control. satan is so powerful that we don't have any way of getting any thing from god? so its like that. are you god? so what is sun to you? is it some literal object that looses its heat in thirds? one third of the loose of heat does what to life. the average temp of the state of hawai yearly at the coast is 70, drop that by one third.
if I were to take that literally.zecheriah 14?

you cherry picked that make that doctrine. when will this happen? zechariah 14 in full context, the city falls and the LORD not the enemy did it. sounds like a judgement as before with Egypt and also babylon
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Zeke?I do not believe in giving books of the Bible nicknames out of respect for the Bible.
 
Kathi said:
Zeke?I do not believe in giving books of the Bible nicknames out of respect for the Bible.
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.sometimes I say zeke rather then argue with the machine when my laptop wants to self correct then negate that and does it all the time.

read Ezekiel chapters 40-48 it mentions a third temple to be built. its taken as a prophecy by most in the church today, rather then the context of a conditional promise of if isreal repents I will do this.
 
I will address luke 13, matthew 24 and luke 21 when kathi responds. she brought up my amil view. I also will say given the times of the gentiles and its meaning. I don't fully get that modern isreal doesn't occupy Jerusalem fully. if isreal is to be it will be a church and a bunch of Hebrews following Christ. that is why I say what I say and I believe that is what Justin martyr's version of the chialism is to him. the rapture or resurrection of the saints was after the 1000 year reign., there was no removal of the church in his views. he quote to trypho reign in Jerusalem per Ezekiel.

on isreal.
read up why god made them the torah and gave them that land its Deuteronomy 6:4
 
JLB said:
The Resurrection and Rapture which are one event are mentioned, along with the those who are Christ's.

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

The Church saints who are in heaven, and the Church saints who are on earth will be gathered, at His Coming.

This is the Resurrection, which happens just before the Rapture as One event!


The Resurrection and Rapture can not be separated.



JLB
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The church has already been raptured so this has nothing to do with the church or rapture. Also, he doesn't send angels to gather the church, Jesus Himself comes for His church. Here, He sends His angels to gather His elect, the nation Israel,l to bring them back to their land.
 
Ricko said:
The church has already been raptured so this has nothing to do with the church or rapture. Also, he doesn't send angels to gather the church, Jesus Himself comes for His church. Here, He sends His angels to gather His elect, the nation Israel,l to bring them back to their land.
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The Church has not already been raptured because I am still here
 
you cherry picked that make that doctrine.
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Really? The Scriptures quoted and explained were precisely about Jerusalem and were the words of Christ. There was absolutely no "cherry picking", and anyone who reads that post will agree.

However, when people discover that there are Scriptures which refute their mistaken beliefs they have two choices (a) believe God or (b) find an excuse not to believe Him. Your excuse is "cherry picking".

There is no doubt that the Bible teaches (1) the physical and real return of the Lord Jesus Christ at His second coming, (2) the physical and real battle of Armageddon which involves Jerusalem, (3) the physical and real deliverance of Jerusalem and Israel from its enemies, by Christ at that battle, and (4) a physical and real Millenium on earth in the future, in which Christ takes full control of this earth, and Satan has no influence whatsoever.
 
Ricko said:
The church has already been raptured so this has nothing to do with the church or rapture. Also, he doesn't send angels to gather the church, Jesus Himself comes for His church. Here, He sends His angels to gather His elect, the nation Israel,l to bring them back to their land.
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That is correct. Each thing in its sequence.
 
Malachi said:
Really? The Scriptures quoted and explained were precisely about Jerusalem and were the words of Christ. There was absolutely no "cherry picking", and anyone who reads that post will agree.

However, when people discover that there are Scriptures which refute their mistaken beliefs they have two choices (a) believe God or (b) find an excuse not to believe Him. Your excuse is "cherry picking".

There is no doubt that the Bible teaches (1) the physical and real return of the Lord Jesus Christ at His second coming, (2) the physical and real battle of Armageddon which involves Jerusalem, and (3) the physical and real deliverance of Jerusalem and Israel from its enemies, by Christ at that battle.
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read zechariah 14 in context. she mentions three verses.
in that day is when to you?the bible is ylt. when is that part about isreal going to be saved and freed from that verse?

, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst.
2 And I have gathered all the nations unto Jerusalem to battle, And captured hath been the city, And spoiled have been the houses, And the women are lain with, Gone forth hath half the city in a removal, And the remnant of the people are not cut off from the city.
3 And gone forth hath Jehovah, And He hath fought against those nations, As in the day of His fighting in a day of conflict.
4 And stood have His feet, in that day, On the mount of Olives, That [is] before Jerusalem eastward, And cleft hath been the mount of Olives at its midst, To the east, and to the west, a very great valley, And removed hath the half of the mount towards the north. And its half towards the south.
5 And ye have fled [to] the valley of My mountains, For join doth the valley of the mountains to Azal, And ye have fled as ye fled before the shaking, In the days of Uzziah king of Judah, And come in hath Jehovah my God, All holy ones [are] with Thee.
6 And it hath come to pass, in that day, The precious light is not, it is dense darkness,
7 And there hath been one day, It is known to Jehovah, not day nor night, And it hath been at evening-time -- there is light.
8 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Go forth do living waters from Jerusalem, Half of them unto the eastern sea, And half of them unto the western sea, In summer and in winter it is.
9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.
10 Changed is all the land as a plain, From Gebo to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, And she hath been high, and hath dwelt in her place, Even from the gate of Benjamin To the place of the first gate, unto the front gate, And from the tower of Hananeel, Unto the wine-vats of the king.
11 And they have dwelt in her, And destruction is no more, And Jerusalem hath dwelt confidently.
12 And this is the plague with which Jehovah Doth plague all the peoples who have warred against Jerusalem, He hath consumed away its flesh, And it is standing on its feet, And its eyes are consumed in their holes, And its tongue is consumed in their mouth.
13 And it hath come to pass, in that day, A great destruction [from] Jehovah is among them, And they have seized each the hand of his neighbour, And gone up hath his hand against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And also Judah is fought with in Jerusalem, And gathered hath been the force of all the nations round about, Gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so is the plague of the horse, of the mule, Of the camel, and of the ass, And of all the cattle that are in these camps, As this plague.
16 And it hath come to pass, Every one who hath been left of all the nations, Who are coming in against Jerusalem, They have also gone up from year to year, To bow themselves to the King, Jehovah of Hosts, And to celebrate the feast of the booths.
17 And it hath come to pass, That he who doth not go up of the families of the land unto Jerusalem, To bow himself to the King, Jehovah of Hosts, Even on them there is no shower.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, nor come in, Then not on them is the plague With which Jehovah doth plague the nations That go not up to celebrate the feast of booths.
19 This is the punishment of the sin of Egypt, And the punishment of the sin of all the nations, That go not up to celebrate the feast of booths.
20 In that day there is on bells of the horse, `Holy to Jehovah,' And the pots in the house of Jehovah Have been as bowls before the altar.
21 And every pot in Jerusalem, and in Judah, Have been holy to Jehovah of Hosts, And all those sacrificing have come in, And have taken of them, and boiled in them, And there is no merchant any more in the house of Jehovah of Hosts in that day!
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

half the city is taken and half isn't. what does that mean and well the army is so fearful that attacks isreal that It uses mules,horses and camels and cattle? some battle. on bomb or a few would wipe out that army.

see verse 15.

what exactly happens to technology that quickly. but I shouldn't take things literally on what few verses literally. that is what I meant re read my response. I address only this chapter I said on some things which I stated that was Idk. I also haven't addressed the others what that is to me yet. I can but I already know you wont bother with that view. the references to Jeremiah's verses.
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continued.
have you actually done sukhot? do you really know what jews say? I do. they say that its feast where god comes in dwells with you in that sukhot. mm the Holy Spirit told me that was the imagery of jesus. God dwelling with man and in a fleshly form.i didn't read that until last sukhot from a reformed rabbi. I intend to do all the feasts. to include sukhot, peshac, purim, and others.in sukhot there is in the law a sin offering. this context doesn't say its for some memorial.
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the Lord, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the Lord.
19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest.
21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord.
35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.
39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.
41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord
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the offerings there are for worship but also have the idea of an altar which must be cleansed daily per the law by offering a lamb daily. this is the first offering. its for the sins of the priest.in Hebrew the idea of sacrifice is also to draw near and to atone at the same time.make note of that. we have the blood for that
 
The raoture and the reasurection is the same event, they happen on the Day of the Lord as revealed in Matthew 24. It is simply a case that people wanting the pre-trib rapture to be true so they hold onto it as hard as they can. But reality shall not be denied forever. When great persecution strikes people will have to just bare it and keep keeping on.
 
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