Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-Tribulation?

[JLB]

You have a contradiction in your own post. How can God bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus if He hasn't already come to get them? How do you reconcile the many signs given for His second coming but we aren't given any signs for the rapture. Also, in Mathew 24 we are told at His second coming it will be like the days of Noah. Who where left on the earth in the days of Noah? In the days of Noah men where eating and drinking and marrying as Noah preached of God's judgement for 120 years. The righteous were left after the flood. The rapture you see in Mathew 24 is a rapture of the unrighteous unto judgement. The tribulation saints are left on earth to enter into the millennium.

You have a contradiction in your own post. How can God bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus if He hasn't already come to get them?

Those who come with Him to earth at the end of the age on the last Day, at the resurrection/Rapture are the dead in Christ.

The dead in Christ...

That means they have died, and are with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13


...those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring with Him, those who sleep in Jesus.


Thats who are coming with Him!


these who are coming with Jesus, precede those who are alive and remain.

...they precede, they rise before, they are resurrected, they come out of the grave, they are gathered just before those who are alive and remain.

alive and remain are caught up together with them.

together with them...

...with them!


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus[. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

sleep in Jesus, means they died.

...sleep in Jesus does not mean they were "previously" Raptured and now are returning with Him.


Those who God brings with Jesus are those who "sleep"...

Those who are alive and remain, are caught up together, with them.


Please let me know if you agree with what Paul writes to the Church?


Blessings to you, JLB

 

[Ricko]

Those who come with Him to earth at the end of the age on the last Day, at the resurrection/Rapture are the dead in Christ.

The dead in Christ...

That means they have died, and are with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13


...those who sleep in Jesus.

God will bring with Him, those who sleep in Jesus.


Thats who are coming with Him!


these who are coming with Jesus, precede those who are alive and remain.

...they precede, they rise before, they are resurrected, they come out of the grave, they are gathered just before those who are alive and remain.

alive and remain are caught up together with them.

together with them...

...with them!


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus[. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

sleep in Jesus, means they died.

...sleep in Jesus does not mean they were "previously" Raptured and now are returning with Him.


Those who God brings with Jesus are those who "sleep"...

Those who are alive and remain, are caught up together, with them.


Please let me know if you agree with what Paul writes to the Church?


Blessings to you, JLB

Thanks for working thru this with me JLB and I apologize for coming across a little rough. We'll eventually come to an agreement on this. My question is this. When do those who sleep in Christ get their glorified bodies and what is the time difference between those who sleep and those that remain? Are you saying that the dead kinda just jump up and come right back down? It is my understanding that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by those who remain. Also, who do you interpret the 24 elders are in Revelation? Thanks and God Bless

 

[jasonc]

None of this is disclosed in the Bible and speculation is counterproductive. There are several imaginary scenarios.

ok so ignore it for ones favorite doctrine? think about it, how will they know what happened if they don't ever know then how will god not use the bible to tell them? if they do read the bible they WILL know the exact day he returns.

Daniel 9 is used for the aod, why would jesus tell one to read it and then tell them no man knows the hour?

 

[JLB]

Thanks for working thru this with me JLB and I apologize for coming across a little rough. We'll eventually come to an agreement on this. My question is this. When do those who sleep in Christ get their glorified bodies and what is the time difference between those who sleep and those that remain? Are you saying that the dead kinda just jump up and come right back down? It is my understanding that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by those who remain. Also, who do you interpret the 24 elders are in Revelation? Thanks and God Bless

No measurable time difference.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

... we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...


...together with them.


One event.


JLB

 

[Ricko]

No measurable time difference.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

... we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...


...together with them.


One event.


JLB

I agree with what you've said about 1 Thes 4, but the events described in Matthew 24 are very different.

 

[Dewey]

[I hope that everyone understands what I am about to say. I didn't get this from a commentary, a preacher, or a movie; it came from years of waiting for God to give me the answer, and not just an answer.]

Please read slowly. I will be using strictly the KJV.

First, the wrath of God is called "the day of the LORD" and detailed accounts that match the trumpets/vials are found in Isaiah 13:6-14, Joel 1:15-2:11, Amos 5:18-20.

"Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate...I will punish the world for their evil...I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:6,9,11,13)

So why does it matter that you know God's wrath is called "the day of the LORD?" Because the "tribulation" that every one talks about is not God's wrath. I'll say it again; the wrath of God (trumpet/vials) are not the tribulation spoken of in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21. How can we know that the day of the LORD and the tribulation are two different events? God gave us a sign:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." (Matt.24:29)

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come." (Joel 2:31)

The sign of the sun, moon, and stars distinctly divides these two events, they cannot be the same. So what is the tribulation if it isn't God's wrath? For the Jews it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 AD, with the slaughter of countless Jews. For us Gentile believers it will be a time of persecution that will include the antichrist and his mark.

I'll stop here. I know I've only scratched the surface and have perhaps created more questions; but it needs to start somewhere.

 

[Deborah13]

[I hope that everyone understands what I am about to say. I didn't get this from a commentary, a preacher, or a movie; it came from years of waiting for God to give me the answer, and not just an answer.]

Please read slowly. I will be using strictly the KJV.

First, the wrath of God is called "the day of the LORD" and detailed accounts that match the trumpets/vials are found in Isaiah 13:6-14, Joel 1:15-2:11, Amos 5:18-20.

"Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate...I will punish the world for their evil...I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isa 13:6,9,11,13)

So why does it matter that you know God's wrath is called "the day of the LORD?" Because the "tribulation" that every one talks about is not God's wrath. I'll say it again; the wrath of God (trumpet/vials) are not the tribulation spoken of in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 21. How can we know that the day of the LORD and the tribulation are two different events? God gave us a sign:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." (Matt.24:29)

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come." (Joel 2:31)

The sign of the sun, moon, and stars distinctly divides these two events, they cannot be the same. So what is the tribulation if it isn't God's wrath? For the Jews it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 AD, with the slaughter of countless Jews. For us Gentile believers it will be a time of persecution that will include the antichrist and his mark.

I'll stop here. I know I've only scratched the surface and have perhaps created more questions; but it needs to start somewhere.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

 

[JLB]

For the Jews it was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 AD, with the slaughter of countless Jews.

70 AD has nothing to do with the Day of the Lord.


JLB

 

[Nintentacle]

70 AD has nothing to do with the Day of the Lord.

JLB

When Jesus was talking about the signs involving the Abomination of Desolation, he was speaking both of the Destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. & the tribulation.

Matthew 24:2-3 says, "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

First, they ask what the signs of the destruction of the Temple is, and then what the signs of his coming and the end of the world, and Jesus gives one answer, and doesn't answer them separately.

In Matthew 24, they ask of the signs of the Temple's destruction and the last days.
In Mark 14 & Luke 21, it is exclusively the signs of the Temple's destruction.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus was talking about the signs involving the Abomination of Desolation, he was speaking both of the Destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. & the tribulation.

No sir!

70 AD has nothing to do with the Abomination of Desolation.

The Olivet Discourse is describing the passage of scripture found in Zechariah 14.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-6


Same city, Jerusalem.

Definitely not 70 AD.

• Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

• That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; Mark 13:24

Do you think that Zechariah 14 is describing the events of 70 AD?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

When Jesus was talking about the signs involving the Abomination of Desolation, he was speaking both of the Destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. & the tribulation.

Matthew 24:2-3 says, "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

First, they ask what the signs of the destruction of the Temple is, and then what the signs of his coming and the end of the world, and Jesus gives one answer, and doesn't answer them separately.

In Matthew 24, they ask of the signs of the Temple's destruction and the last days.
In Mark 14 & Luke 21, it is exclusively the signs of the Temple's destruction.

I agree with you about 70 AD but what verses cause you to believe that He is also talking about a future tribulation?
Thanks

 

[ezrider]

JLB, Let me ask you a question.

In the Olivet discourse, the disciple begin by asking Jesus was was the sign of his coming. But what coming were they referring to?
I ask you this because when the disciples ask Jesus this question, they still did not understand that Jesus was to be crucified. They would have had not a thought or idea about a second coming as as you suppose it to be at that time. The disciples at that time still thought that Jesus would ascend to the throne of David and take his place as the King of Israel. We read in Luke 24:21 that even after the death of Jesus, the disciples were still bewildered and beside themselves because they did not understand, for they trusted that it was He would have redeemed Israel.

So since the disciples had not a thought about a second coming, and they believed that He would judge and redeem Israel when they asked this question, then what was the coming that the disciples were actually asking about when they asked him what would be the signs?

 

[JLB]

JLB, Let me ask you a question.

In the Olivet discourse, the disciple begin by asking Jesus was was the sign of his coming. But what coming were they referring to?
I ask you this because when the disciples ask Jesus this question, they still did not understand that Jesus was to be crucified. They would have had not a thought or idea about a second coming as as you suppose it to be at that time. The disciples at that time still thought that Jesus would ascend to the throne of David and take his place as the King of Israel. We read in Luke 24:21 that even after the death of Jesus, the disciples were still bewildered and beside themselves because they did not understand, for they trusted that it was He would have redeemed Israel.

So since the disciples had not a thought about a second coming, and they believed that He would judge and redeem Israel when they asked this question, then what was the coming that the disciples were actually asking about when they asked him what would be the signs?

The only coming mentioned in the scriptures.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB

 

[reba]

Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Here, after the Cross we read Jesus appeared to Simon... and He appeared to the guys on the Emmaus road.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
reading this we see He says dont touch Me now... and when we read this, we can/or not conclude He had ascended ( some do some dont)
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
So He appeared
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

 

[Sinthesis]

JLB, Let me ask you a question.

In the Olivet discourse, the disciple begin by asking Jesus was was the sign of his coming. But what coming were they referring to?
I ask you this because when the disciples ask Jesus this question, they still did not understand that Jesus was to be crucified. They would have had not a thought or idea about a second coming as as you suppose it to be at that time. The disciples at that time still thought that Jesus would ascend to the throne of David and take his place as the King of Israel. We read in Luke 24:21 that even after the death of Jesus, the disciples were still bewildered and beside themselves because they did not understand, for they trusted that it was He would have redeemed Israel.

So since the disciples had not a thought about a second coming, and they believed that He would judge and redeem Israel when they asked this question, then what was the coming that the disciples were actually asking about when they asked him what would be the signs?

You're making a good point.

 

[ezrider]

The only coming mentioned in the scriptures.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB

You quote this scripture an awful lot as if you think you are saying something, end then cleverly ignore the premise of the question I asked you. As to the disciples, they were not looking for a second coming: HE WAS ALREADY THERE.

So since you don't want to address that question, but rather saw fit to mask your response by quoting this particular scripture, then maybe you could enlighten us all by what this scripture actually means. It is more than just a second coming. He will appear apart from sin. What do you think this means: to appear apart from sin?