Predestination and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

Only those who choose to believe/obey Christ, are saved.

It's all about choice.



JLB

WHY does one choose to believe..obey?

Im understand if God grants you the ability you will choose Jesus. No grant from God, no choice for Jesus.

 

[JLB]

WHY does one choose to believe..obey?

Im understand if God grants you the ability you will choose Jesus. No grant from God, no choice for Jesus.

Because they heard the Gospel and received faith... for the Gospel is the power of God, unto salvation.

However, not everyone who has faith, obeys.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

and again

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?... Romans 10:14


Now comes the another will to choose, and that of the one whom God sends to preach, that the lost may hear and receive faith, for the one who preaches must choose to go and preach.

Just another choice.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I like this point!!

Does Satan believe according to the word translated "believe" in John 3:16?

Of course I have seen this said before, but I think our translation into English might have let us down. The word believe used in "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" does not mean a simply belief that God exists. It mean and is often translated "trust" or puts trust in. Satan does not put His trust in Jesus Christ!

From my Strong's Concordance:

piateuo - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to , a person or thing) credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ): -- to believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Satan comes nowhere near putting his trust in Christ. Those that serve Him and especially those that seek the get instructions from the Lord and do them, put their trust in Christ. And it is that type of belief or trust that saves us, as James explains

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?


So I have enjoyed the cleaver little statement said by many about even Satan believing, but the that type of belief or faith will not save him, and obviously that applies to others.

In the Greek language everything means more. So believe means more, to hear means more, to love is more specific, as there are different meanings, and so on.

And yes, that type of belief, as satan believes, does not save.

So your faith, piateuo, is what is going to save you because you're putting your spiritual well-being in Christ,
THEN Belief is what keeps you saved -- more on that in ivdavid's post.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace is a gift....not meant for all.

Unless you are chosen by God...you will not receive the gift of saving faith.

John 6:44 helps us understand...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Hey Cygnus,
I think I could safely assume that YOU are one of the lucky chosen few.

Upon what do you suppose God based His decision? The timing of your birth? Your good looks? Your fitting in nicely to this theatrical play He's got going?

And what about those He predestined to hell? Was He in a really bad mood that day? And how did He pick them?

Does your side of the fence ever stop to consider how silly it all sounds. I don't say this in a mean spirited way, but to get you to think about what you're saying.

Here's just one verse for you:
Revelation 3:20
If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door..
That's Jesus speaking.
Do you think He meant what He said?
Did He KNOW what He was saying?
Do you think He used the wrong words?

Do you suppose John 6:44 has anything to do with Romans 2:19-20?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That is true..."you had no choice in the matter."...you had nothing to do with your salvation. It's all God.

The conflict occurs when you think it is your choice. The question is, what do you base your choice upon?

We've been through this Cygnus. Apparently you don't remember my answer and it was VERY recent - so I won't repeat.

So, let's see. Your mom, father, wife, husband (take your pick, as applies) is not saved.

This is because the God you are serving has decided to purposefully send them to be with demons in a horrible place. And not because of anything they're responsible for. Now, would you say that's a JUST and LOVING God you are serving? Have you made any sacrifices for Him? Are they worth it for such a whimsical God?

Mathew 7:13-14
The wide gate and the narrow gate.
Jesus says that few are they that find the narrow gate.
And many that enter through the wide gate.

So here we have two words to consider:
Find
Enter

If I'm predestined by God for either salvation or damnation, why would Jesus tell me to look for and find the narrow gate?

Those who ENTER the wide gate seem to be doing it of their own volition. I don't hear Jesus say that they are being pushed through, but they are ENTERING. When I enter a building, I walk in through the door all by myself; it's my choice to enter that building.

That's a mean God you're serving there, Cygnus.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd like to first state my motivations behind this line of discussion. I've noticed that whenever 2 people are unable to agree upon the same belief, it's usually due to differences in the 3Ls - Language, Logic or Laws (root First Premises). The first 2 Ls should be technically easy to sort out (but rarely is!), while we have the objective Scriptures for the First Premises (though with our subjective Interpretations). If we proceed with defining all ambiguous terms, avoid logical fallacies and adopt the Scripture-interprets-Scripture principle, we should be able to find more common ground.

I couldn't agree with you more - so we're off to a good start.

This thread essentially asks the basic question of whether our salvation is monergistic (all God's work alone with no cooperation from man) or synergistic (all God's work in cooperation with man). I've worded this in the most common form, but to be more precise we need to elaborate on what we mean by cooperation of man. For in one sense, when we say that something was done without another's cooperation, we quickly assume that it was done against the will of that person, or at least in indifference to his will. But that is not the sense in which this must be used - it simply contemplates whether man co-Operated or not - ie whether man did something as a causative contribution towards his salvation or not. Therefore technically, salvation could be monergistic with no causative cooperation from man and yet within his will.

Again, I could not agree more, but will add to what you've said. There are two other words we must explain here, just to make it easier for us to undersand each other. They are:
Justification
Sanctification

I'm sure you're familiar with both, but let's clarify.
You're saying that salvation is monergistic- God doing all the work. The only causative cooperation on the part of man would be his desire to know God and to serve God. He must be looking for God in order to find Him, and in order to hear His voice. Other than this, I'd say that Justification (initial salvation) is totally the work of God. Man can do nothing to deserve this - he is lost at birth, and God is Almighty, so what could we possibly do for Him?
And herein is our will demonstrated. We WILL to know God.

Then we get to the synergistic.
Sanctification.

Although God gives us the grace to do works, we become sanctified by cooperating with God in this work of His to make us holy, separate. Separate for service to God. So sanctification requires our cooperation since God cannot do the work for us: God - who sends the Holy Spirit to be our paraclete, and Us, who do the works with the help of the Holy Spirit. All this to finish a good work in us - Philippians 1:6

The current discussion on the two words "faith" and "to believe in" addresses this very issue. Both sides agree to the fact that Faith is given by God alone and man is a passive recipient. The ones who hold both words to amount to the same then derive an easy conclusion for monergism. And the ones who do not hold them to be the same derive "Believing in" to be the cooperative work of man in response to God's giving of Faith. Hence, this line of discussion over these words in order to conclude in part on the thread topic.

I believe in monergism and synergism - so where do I fit in?
FAITH: Hebrews 11:1
Faith is a noun. It's a "thing." It's something I have: an assurance that I will eventually have the things I hope for. A conviction, or a being sure of, things I cannot see. I know principalities exist, even though I cannot see them.

God gives us faith, but we also have to want it. It is, however, a supernatural gift - we don't fabricate faith, it comes to us from God. Of course, there are also other types of faith; I could have faith in my car, in an escalator, etc. That faith lets me MOVE to get into my car, or to get on the escalator. My God Faith, lets me move toward God.

Believe is a verb. To believe in Jesus means to understand what He intends, to agree with it, to adhere to His teachings, to be ready to follow them, and Him. It's more of what WE are willing to do for HIM.

The "believe" in your no. 2 below is a lesser belief. It's more of that belief like satan had in Jesus. Satan believed in Him too and His ability to keep His promises on the basis of Jesus' nature and abilities, but satan did not believe in the sense of what I wrote above. So that has to be the "believe" as expressed biblically and which is the correct translation from the Greek.

Actually, the English translation has been pretty faithful to the original words here. I suppose it is us who aren't making the appropriate distinctions between the base word "believe" and the phrasal word "believe in/on/upon". To begin with some working definitions :
1. to Believe : is to hold a premise as True.
2. to Believe in/on/upon somebody : is to hold as True, the sufficiency of that person to fulfill what is expected of him or what he has promised, on the basis of that person's nature and abilities.

Therefore, the devil 1.believes that there is one God - but does not 2.believe in Christ for redemption and salvation.


I think the greek dictionary makes it quite clear that to "believe in/upon a person" is grammatically the same as to "have faith".

Although I understand the two words to have different meanings, I do agree with you that to believe in a person, you must also have faith in that person. If you have "faith" in the person, then you can also "believe" in them.

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Because they heard the Gospel and received faith... for the Gospel is the power of God, unto salvation.

However, not everyone who has faith, obeys.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

and again

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?... Romans 10:14


Now comes the another will to choose, and that of the one whom God sends to preach, that the lost may hear and receive faith, for the one who preaches must choose to go and preach.

Just another choice.



JLB

I'm reading it...but I don't see how it supports your claim. You didn't support that they evr had faith.

 

[Cygnus]

wondering, post:

Upon what do you suppose God based His decision? The timing of your birth? Your good looks? Your fitting in nicely to this theatrical play He's got going?

The bible is silent on why God decides to rescue some from justice and deliver them with mercy. Why are you mocking Gods reasons?

And what about those He predestined to hell? Was He in a really bad mood that day? And how did He pick them?

Do you not know every person is deserving of hell? God, that is sovereign God. has the right to have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. In fact God wasn't required to have mercy on anyone.

Does your side of the fence ever stop to consider how silly it all sounds. I don't say this in a mean spirited way, but to get you to think about what you're saying.

God choosing to have mercy on people is silly? You really think so?

Here's just one verse for you:
Revelation 3:20
If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear....not all people have ears. You do realize that? If you hear Christ voice..you will be saved. Only
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him.
Thoise that are not Jesus sheep will refuse to believe.

That's Jesus speaking.

That's right. It's Jesus speaking...and you putting words into Jesus' mouth.

Do you think He meant what He said?
Did He KNOW what He was saying?
Do you think He used the wrong words?

Do you suppose John 6:44 has anything to do with Romans 2:19-20?

Not particularly

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 2:19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in theLaw the embodiment of knowledge and truth —

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

"wondering, post:We've been through this Cygnus. Apparently you don't remember my answer and it was VERY recent - so I won't repeat.

So, let's see. Your mom, father, wife, husband (take your pick, as applies) is not saved.

This is because the God you are serving has decided to purposefully send them to be with demons in a horrible place. And not because of anything they're responsible for. Now, would you say that's a JUST and LOVING God you are serving? Have you made any sacrifices for Him? Are they worth it for such a whimsical God?

Not responsible for? Have you NEVER read Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
...are you saying people don't deserve hell?

Mathew 7:13-14
The wide gate and the narrow gate.
Jesus says that few are they that find the narrow gate.
And many that enter through the wide gate.

Few are chosen...few will find it...and ebter through it.

So here we have two words to consider:
Find
Enter

If I'm predestined by God for either salvation or damnation, why would Jesus tell me to look for and find the narrow gate?

He's speaking to His sheep. His sheep hear Him, his sheep hear his voice....If your not a sheep...you won't hear His voice.

Those who ENTER the wide gate seem to be doing it of their own volition. I don't hear Jesus say that they are being pushed through, but they are ENTERING. When I enter a building, I walk in through the door all by myself; it's my choice to enter that building.

Have you not read John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned,

Sounds like everyone has already entered through that gate.

That's a mean God you're serving there, Cygnus.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Only
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him.
Thoise that are not Jesus sheep will refuse to believe.

Please post the scripture, and context for this statement, and we can discuss it.

The sheep in the context of what He said, are His disciples who heard Him and followed Him throughout Jerusalem.

They knew Him, which is the definition of eternal life.

If you hear Christ voice..you will be saved.

Those who hear have faith... as faith comes by hearing.

Those who obey, are saved by faith and will received the salvation of their soul in reality and the end of their faith.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


....with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This is the action [work] of obedience, to confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord is your believing act that activates your salvation to produce the diving result of salvation by faith.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Please post the scripture, and context for this statement, and we can discuss it.

The sheep in the context of what He said, are His disciples who heard Him and followed Him throughout Jerusalem.

They knew Him, which is the definition of eternal life.





Those who hear have faith... as faith comes by hearing.

Those who obey, are saved by faith and will received the salvation of their soul in reality and the end of their faith.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


....with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This is the action [work] of obedience, to confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord is your believing act that activates your salvation to produce the diving result of salvation by faith.


JLB

You keep posting verses in an ad-hoc manner....pretty hard to follow tour thoughts.

 

[JLB]

You keep posting verses in an ad-hoc manner....pretty hard to follow tour thoughts.

Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him.
Thoise that are not Jesus sheep will refuse to believe.

Please post the scripture, and context for this statement, and we can discuss it.

The sheep in the context of what He said, are His disciples who heard Him and followed Him throughout Jerusalem.

They knew Him, which is the definition of eternal life.

 

[childeye]

I'm sorry I can't respond Childeye.
There are too many misunderstandings to fix and it would take too long to get back to the fundamental discussion.

I understand how that goes. It's okay.

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR CYGNUS

Wondering says:
Upon what do you suppose God based His decision? The timing of your birth? Your good looks? Your fitting in nicely to this theatrical play He's got going?

Cygnus says:
The bible is silent on why God decides to rescue some from justice and deliver them with mercy. Why are you mocking Gods reasons?

Wondering replies:
I'd say YOU are the one mocking God. Making Him to be an unjust God who does NOT love His very creation and does not offer them the possibility of salvation based on their free will and has instead made them to be puppets in a play, or the proverbial robots, if you prefer.
And you say God is silent on this matter? SILENT. On such an important matter that involves all of humanity?

And what about those He predestined to hell? Was He in a really bad mood that day? And how did He pick them?

Do you not know every person is deserving of hell? God, that is sovereign God. has the right to have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. In fact God wasn't required to have mercy on anyone.

Why did He make us? And regarding everyone deserving hell - Is this not why Jesus came to atone for our sins? Is this not why He is called the Savior?
2 Corinthians 5:17-18

Does your side of the fence ever stop to consider how silly it all sounds. I don't say this in a mean spirited way, but to get you to think about what you're saying.

God choosing to have mercy on people is silly? You really think so?

I think it would be nice if He had mercy on EVERYONE. You disagree?
2 Peter 3:9
Not wishing that ANY SHOULD PERISH
But for ALL to come to repentence

God wishes that none should perish but that all come to repentence. If He wanted to, He could save everyone. Do you know why He doesn't? Because it's up to US to CHOOSE to believe and follow Jesus for salvation.


Here's just one verse for you:
Revelation 3:20
If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear....not all people have ears. You do realize that? If you hear Christ voice..you will be saved. Only
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him.
Thoise that are not Jesus sheep will refuse to believe.

Those who do NOT have ears to hear are those who think they know everything, like the Pharisees, and have thus shut their ears to the truth.
Mathew 13:15-17

And regarding His sheep. How about posting some scripture...


That's Jesus speaking.

That's right. It's Jesus speaking...and you putting words into Jesus' mouth.

Do you think He meant what He said?
Did He KNOW what He was saying?
Do you think He used the wrong words?

Jesus doesn't need me to speak for Him. I'll repeat what He said in
Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYONE hears my voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in to HIM and will dine with HIM and he with Me."

Do you suppose John 6:44 has anything to do with Romans 2:19-20?

Not particularly

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 2:19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in theLaw the embodiment of knowledge and truth —

Sorry. I meant to compare John 6:44 with Romans 1:19-20
John 6:44 says that God draws man to Jesus.
Romans 1:19-20 tells us how. From since the creation of the world His attributes, eternal power and divine nature have been known by man, through what has been made and clearly seen. God is evident to man and has revealed Himself to man. In this way, God draws all men to Him - some will choose to accept His plan of salvation and some will choose to refuse it.

Wondering[/QUOTE]

 

[GodsGrace]

"wondering, post:We've been through this Cygnus. Apparently you don't remember my answer and it was VERY recent - so I won't repeat.

So, let's see. Your mom, father, wife, husband (take your pick, as applies) is not saved.

This is because the God you are serving has decided to purposefully send them to be with demons in a horrible place. And not because of anything they're responsible for. Now, would you say that's a JUST and LOVING God you are serving? Have you made any sacrifices for Him? Are they worth it for such a whimsical God?

Not responsible for? Have you NEVER read Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
...are you saying people don't deserve hell?

Mathew 7:13-14
The wide gate and the narrow gate.
Jesus says that few are they that find the narrow gate.
And many that enter through the wide gate.

Few are chosen...few will find it...and ebter through it.

So here we have two words to consider:
Find
Enter

If I'm predestined by God for either salvation or damnation, why would Jesus tell me to look for and find the narrow gate?

He's speaking to His sheep. His sheep hear Him, his sheep hear his voice....If your not a sheep...you won't hear His voice.

Those who ENTER the wide gate seem to be doing it of their own volition. I don't hear Jesus say that they are being pushed through, but they are ENTERING. When I enter a building, I walk in through the door all by myself; it's my choice to enter that building.

Have you not read John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned,

Sounds like everyone has already entered through that gate.

That's a mean God you're serving there, Cygnus.

Wondering

Cygnus,
The above is so elementary, I cannot respond in a serious manner.

I'll only respond to this:
I said:
Mathew 7:13-14
The wide gate and the narrow gate.
Jesus says that few are they that find the narrow gate.
And many that enter through the wide gate.

You say:
Few are chosen...few will find it...and ebter through it.

I say:
So here we have two words to consider:
Find
Enter

If I'm predestined by God for either salvation or damnation, why would Jesus tell me to look for and find the narrow gate?

You say:
He's speaking to His sheep. His sheep hear Him, his sheep hear his voice....If your not a sheep...you won't hear His voice.

What do sheep have to do with entering through the narrow gate or the wide gate??
Where are sheep spoken of in Mathew 7? I might have missed it, please provide the verse.

Wondering
(the quote feature would work better...)

 

[childeye]

WHY does one choose to believe..obey?

Because they can't choose to not believe the Truth (when they see it). Who can deny 1+1=2 (when they see it)?

If to some the cross is foolishness and to others it's the power and wisdom of God, then that's a significant difference. Lest we be vain, God must reveal such things.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[Cygnus]

Please post the scripture, and context for this statement, and we can discuss it.

The sheep in the context of what He said, are His disciples who heard Him and followed Him throughout Jerusalem.

They knew Him, which is the definition of eternal life.

You may try to narrow it down to those in Jerusalem....but I think the scripture is much bigger than that. In your line of thinking the commandmenst of Christ...John 3:16 and beyond really are not meant for us but specifically for those Jesus spoke to.

Now, if you wish to interpret the bible that way....so be it.
...for now on any time you quote from the 4 gospels I have the right to say to you...Jesus was speaking to so and so...and not us.

 

[childeye]

The understanding is not in four verses, but the Lord gives understanding not our reasoning.

Proverb 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom, from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Rom 3: 10 THERE IS NON RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

1 Jn 1:8 Is we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth in not in us.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Now as far as predestination and freewill go, God has predetermined, and He has also given us freewill. None of us used that freewill to seek Him, but He said to seek Him, and made it possible for some to seek Him, despite all being rebellious. All have chosen a sinful way with their freewill, but some our saved by God. All were of the devil and had to be born again or born of God. And that did not mean they no longer had a problem and battle with sin, so as to be doing every thing right. It meant they became aware of sin and so chose God, because He chose and had it in His plan. They, we, still choose. and we always had the ability to do so, but we didn't. Not even one of us did. So when God entered in and manifested Himself in our lives, some have chosen God, but not all, and some seem to go back to as they were before after hearing His call.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ.

The Galatians had hear, and went back away from God. And are you not saying that can't happen? But it did and does.

So the question Paul asked the Galatians was,

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

And also

Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

I am not a "Freewiller", nor am I hung up on predestination. It seems to me that God's choosing me goes perfect with me choosing Him after He choose me. And I choose to hear from Him everyday, and He chooses to talk to me every day. We have a relationship! And that gives me great joy and a zealousness that others should have that also. They can. They can choose Him, and the fact that they won't until He intervenes does not mean they can't choose Him. If He intervenes in their life, perhaps they will choose to listen to Him, and then He will treat them like His children and will love them, teach them, and reprove them. The offer is out there with the encouragement to repent and choose Him.

Rev 3:19,20 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

For mankind, every moment of life, we are inevitably making choices. But those choices are already pre-determined as we develop according to God's forknowledge.

The prodigal son is the perfect example. The son, in vanity, thinks he knows better than his Father. So he takes his inheritance and leaves from under his Father's authority. The Father will not stop him, because he knows that if he does, it will only increase the doubt that the son already has in him. The son needs to find out for himself the way things are. The son returns, now not in vanity, but humbled and hopeful, and with a new and true appreciation for his Father, that he did not have before. Romans 8:20. He is now wiser and a willing trusting servant. God knew and has always known from eternity how to create children of God. Such is His power and perfect are His ways. Praise be unto Him and His Christ forever and ever.

You said you are not a "freewiller". Then you recognize that the fact that we can make choices, does not mean we control the circumstances of why we choose the way we do. The prodigal son had an impure image of His Father in his mind, which prompted him to want to leave. He returns because he now has a pure image of his Father in his heart, whom he is pleased and honored to serve. 2 Corinthians 4:6. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[JLB]

You may try to narrow it down to those in Jerusalem....but I think the scripture is much bigger than that. In your line of thinking the commandmenst of Christ...John 3:16 and beyond really are not meant for us but specifically for those Jesus spoke to.

Let's look at the language of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes... is clear.


Now let's look at another scripture that get's misapplied.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

Jesus was not speaking to everyone, but to His disciples that He Himself spent 3 1/2 years working with and teaching.

These were qualified to represent Him with authority and power, and to make disciples.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

This refers to His disciples, specifically.

If this was a blanket statement that refers to all of those who are His, then who are the other sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

His disciples heard His Voice and followed Him wherever He went, and they knew Him.



JLB

 

[childeye]

Let's look at the language of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes... is clear.


Now let's look at another scripture that get's misapplied.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

Jesus was not speaking to everyone, but to His disciples that He Himself spent 3 1/2 years working with and teaching.

These were qualified to represent Him with authority and power, and to make disciples.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

This refers to His disciples, specifically.

If this was a blanket statement that refers to all of those who are His, then who are the other sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

His disciples heard His Voice and followed Him wherever He went, and they knew Him.



JLB

What about this scripture?
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.