Predestination and Calvinism

[ivdavid]

There MUST be a more complicated way of asking whatever it is you wish to know...

Haha! Let's just chalk it up to my experience on these forums so far.

When I ask in simple words, I am either not precise enough or I haven't cited factual Scriptural or external sources.
When I ask in precise terms, they are not simple enough.
Bear with me until I get better at communicating effectively.

I just wanted to point out that deriving "Those who hear the Gospel have faith" from Rom 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing" is not a logically valid conclusion, unless I'm missing something.

 

[ivdavid]

And please post the scripture that teaches us not all people are given the faith to believe.

Without a comprehensive explanation of what we each mean by certain words, and how we connect them to each other, we'd only end up prooftexting. For example: without knowing what you mean by the phrase "given the faith to believe", and considering that faith is a gift of God alone(Eph 2:8), I could end up citing Heb 4:2 to show some people are not given the faith with which the Gospel which was preached and which they heard could be mixed with.

But that doesn't do justice to how we each may understand these concepts and each others' belief systems. We'd have to start elsewhere at the root of these beliefs and work our way up for a better understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

Haha! Let's just chalk it up to my experience on these forums so far.

When I ask in simple words, I am either not precise enough or I haven't cited factual Scriptural or external sources.
When I ask in precise terms, they are not simple enough.
Bear with me until I get better at communicating effectively.

I just wanted to point out that deriving "Those who hear the Gospel have faith" from Rom 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing" is not a logically valid conclusion, unless I'm missing something.

I see your dilemma ivdavid!
But simple is always good - especially for those of us reading along who are not very good at math!

I wouldn't presume to answer for JLB, I'll just say that you bring up two words, Faith and Believe. In my opinion, they have different meanings. Also, Believe is a very important word in understanding Christianity and how we are to follow Christ. Even satan BELIEVES in Jesus, so it must mean something else for us. Since the bible was written in the Greek language, we have to look to the Greek meaning.

Wondering

 

[childeye]

Let's take the above example because I find it interesting and good for examining.

Now we did agree that perhaps we have a different definition of freewill, and we obviously do. Because I see where a person has been given the ability and freedom to choose based upon their want/will/desire, and even the ability to choose to beat the beggar with a baseball bat and take his few dollars. That has been done.

Freewill means self determined. When applied to the moral/immoral purview the term becomes an equivocation between two opposing higher powers of good and evil. But it is not self determined even because these are higher powers. I suggest that you consider that there are children of God and children of the devil. The child of the devil would beat the beggar and take his dollars, the child of God would give the beggar some money.

The freewiller is saying that I choose who my Father will be as my prerogative, equivocating back and forth between two masters. This type of a freewill is a form of vanity called double mindedness, that supposes that a person can change his moral/immoral characteristics by his own ability to choose back and forth in an equivocation. It is contrary to scripture. Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree brings forth bad fruit. John warns us not to be deceived by anyone teaching otherwise.
1 John 3:7-10King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Freewill means self determined. When applied to the moral/immoral purview the term becomes an equivocation between two opposing higher powers of good and evil. But it is not self determined even because these are higher powers. I suggest that you consider that there are children of God and children of the devil. The child of the devil would beat the beggar and take his dollars, the child of God would give the beggar some money.

The freewiller is saying that I choose who my Father will be as my prerogative, equivocating back and forth between two masters. This type of a freewill is a form of vanity called double mindedness, that supposes that a person can change his moral/immoral characteristics by his own ability to choose back and forth in an equivocation. It is contrary to scripture. John warns us not to be deceived by anyone teaching otherwise.
1 John 3:7-10King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The understanding is not in four verses, but the Lord gives understanding not our reasoning.

Proverb 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom, from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Rom 3: 10 THERE IS NON RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

1 Jn 1:8 Is we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth in not in us.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Now as far as predestination and freewill go, God has predetermined, and He has also given us freewill. None of us used that freewill to seek Him, but He said to seek Him, and made it possible for some to seek Him, despite all being rebellious. All have chosen a sinful way with their freewill, but some our saved by God. All were of the devil and had to be born again or born of God. And that did not mean they no longer had a problem and battle with sin, so as to be doing every thing right. It meant they became aware of sin and so chose God, because He chose and had it in His plan. They, we, still choose. and we always had the ability to do so, but we didn't. Not even one of us did. So when God entered in and manifested Himself in our lives, some have chosen God, but not all, and some seem to go back to as they were before after hearing His call.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ.

The Galatians had hear, and went back away from God. And are you not saying that can't happen? But it did and does.

So the question Paul asked the Galatians was,

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

And also

Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

I am not a "Freewiller", nor am I hung up on predestination. It seems to me that God's choosing me goes perfect with me choosing Him after He choose me. And I choose to hear from Him everyday, and He chooses to talk to me every day. We have a relationship! And that gives me great joy and a zealousness that others should have that also. They can. They can choose Him, and the fact that they won't until He intervenes does not mean they can't choose Him. If He intervenes in their life, perhaps they will choose to listen to Him, and then He will treat them like His children and will love them, teach them, and reprove them. The offer is out there with the encouragement to repent and choose Him.

Rev 3:19,20 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I see your dilemma ivdavid!
But simple is always good - especially for those of us reading along who are not very good at math!

I wouldn't presume to answer for JLB, I'll just say that you bring up two words, Faith and Believe. In my opinion, they have different meanings. Also, Believe is a very important word in understanding Christianity and how we are to follow Christ. Even satan BELIEVES in Jesus, so it must mean something else for us. Since the bible was written in the Greek language, we have to look to the Greek meaning.

Wondering

Yes, I like this point!!

Does Satan believe according to the word translated "believe" in John 3:16?

Of course I have seen this said before, but I think our translation into English might have let us down. The word believe used in "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish" does not mean a simply belief that God exists. It mean and is often translated "trust" or puts trust in. Satan does not put His trust in Jesus Christ!

From my Strong's Concordance:

piateuo - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to , a person or thing) credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ): -- to believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Satan comes nowhere near putting his trust in Christ. Those that serve Him and especially those that seek the get instructions from the Lord and do them, put their trust in Christ. And it is that type of belief or trust that saves us, as James explains

James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

So I have enjoyed the cleaver little statement said by many about even Satan believing, but the that type of belief or faith will not save him, and obviously that applies to others.

 

[JLB]

In this context, you seem to have defined the word "believe" differently from the word "faith"

Yes, most definitly.

Faith is a noun, it is substance. It is what we receive

Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:8-10,17

Believe, on the other hand is what we do, which is a verb.

Believe and obey are synonymous, with what we are to do, to activate the faith we receive from God, when we hear His word,
[Voice; Rhema]

Believe/Obey is what we do, with the faith from God we receive, when we hear.



JLB

 

[childeye]

Being God's children means we have God's character?
So do we become God?

Yes being His children means they are like their Father. God is Spirit. Spirit begets Spirit.

We were speaking of men, now you're speaking of Jesus. And Adam. Adam was made in the IMAGE of God. An image of something is not the real thing. A picture is an image, it's not the actual person.

I don't know what I have said that would make you think I thought that Adam was God. Adam didn't create himself. I simply said that as a son of God Adam had the same character as God, which is what image implies. And we know this because Jesus is the Image of God also, the second Adam. I said this because you had said that to be made in God's image meant Adam had a freewill.

We are obedient to God, we are not God.
Philippians 2:5-8

I never said we are God. I said that God's children have the same character traits as their Father. Good children are obedient.

BTW, IF we were innocent and not able to be wicked -
WHAT made Eve eat the forbidden fruit??

She was beguiled, she wasn't wicked. 2 Corinthians 11:3 .

 

[ivdavid]

two words, Faith and Believe. In my opinion, they have different meanings.....Even satan BELIEVES in Jesus, so it must mean something else for us.

I'd like to first state my motivations behind this line of discussion. I've noticed that whenever 2 people are unable to agree upon the same belief, it's usually due to differences in the 3Ls - Language, Logic or Laws (root First Premises). The first 2 Ls should be technically easy to sort out (but rarely is!), while we have the objective Scriptures for the First Premises (though with our subjective Interpretations). If we proceed with defining all ambiguous terms, avoid logical fallacies and adopt the Scripture-interprets-Scripture principle, we should be able to find more common ground.

This thread essentially asks the basic question of whether our salvation is monergistic (all God's work alone with no cooperation from man) or synergistic (all God's work in cooperation with man). I've worded this in the most common form, but to be more precise we need to elaborate on what we mean by cooperation of man. For in one sense, when we say that something was done without another's cooperation, we quickly assume that it was done against the will of that person, or at least in indifference to his will. But that is not the sense in which this must be used - it simply contemplates whether man co-Operated or not - ie whether man did something as a causative contribution towards his salvation or not. Therefore technically, salvation could be monergistic with no causative cooperation from man and yet within his will.

The current discussion on the two words "faith" and "to believe in" addresses this very issue. Both sides agree to the fact that Faith is given by God alone and man is a passive recipient. The ones who hold both words to amount to the same then derive an easy conclusion for monergism. And the ones who do not hold them to be the same derive "Believing in" to be the cooperative work of man in response to God's giving of Faith. Hence, this line of discussion over these words in order to conclude in part on the thread topic.

Since the bible was written in the Greek language, we have to look to the Greek meaning.

I think our translation into English might have let us down.

Actually, the English translation has been pretty faithful to the original words here. I suppose it is us who aren't making the appropriate distinctions between the base word "believe" and the phrasal word "believe in/on/upon". To begin with some working definitions :
1. to Believe : is to hold a premise as True.
2. to Believe in/on/upon somebody : is to hold as True, the sufficiency of that person to fulfill what is expected of him or what he has promised, on the basis of that person's nature and abilities.

Therefore, the devil 1.believes that there is one God - but does not 2.believe in Christ for redemption and salvation.

[Strong's G4100] pisteuo - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to , a person or thing)

I think the greek dictionary makes it quite clear that to "believe in/upon a person" is grammatically the same as to "have faith".

 

[GodsGrace]

...
I am not a "Freewiller", nor am I hung up on predestination. It seems to me that God's choosing me goes perfect with me choosing Him after He choose me. And I choose to hear from Him everyday, and He chooses to talk to me every day. We have a relationship! And that gives me great joy and a zealousness that others should have that also. They can. They can choose Him, and the fact that they won't until He intervenes does not mean they can't choose Him. If He intervenes in their life, perhaps they will choose to listen to Him, and then He will treat them like His children and will love them, teach them, and reprove them. The offer is out there with the encouragement to repent and choose Him.

Rev 3:19,20 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

K2CHRIST

I hope you rethink all your positions.
You say you're not a "freewiller" but then you say you believe you have free will.
You say you are not hung up on predestination, but then you say that God chooses you.

If by this you mean that God loved us first, 1 John 4:19, and then we are also able to love, you are correct.
God loves every single, individual person and wishes that person to know Him and to be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4

As far as predestination -- God DOES predestine us, but not for salvation. He desires for ALL to be saved. I like John 3:16 the best: WHOSOEVER (not just some). God predestines us, since He knew from the beginning of the world WHO would come to accept his plan of salvation, to be conformed to the image of His Son. Romans 8:29

The predestination is not unto salvation, but unto a BECOMING, in nature, after we choose to follow Jesus.

Anyone who quotes Revelation 3:20, and even highlights "anyone" (as you have done) must necessarily believe that God invites all, and that it is OUR CHOICE to open the door upon which Jesus is knocking.
(have you ever noticed that the door does not have a handle on all the images of Jesus knocking? And can only be opened from the inside).

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes being His children means they are like their Father. God is Spirit. Spirit begets Spirit.

I don't know what I have said that would make you think I thought that Adam was God. Adam didn't create himself. I simply said that as a son of God Adam had the same character as God, which is what image implies. And we know this because Jesus is the Image of God also, the second Adam. I said this because you had said that to be made in God's image meant Adam had a freewill.

I never said we are God. I said that God's children have the same character traits as their Father. Good children are obedient.

She was beguiled, she wasn't wicked. 2 Corinthians 11:3 .

I'm sorry I can't respond Childeye.
There are too many misunderstandings to fix and it would take too long to get back to the fundamental discussion.

I'll say this: If you say that we have the character of God, I'll disagree.
If you say that we have some TRAITS of the character of God, I agree and have even stated a few.
You state both up above, which I've highlighted, so it's difficult for me to know which statement I should respond to.

Also, you state that children are obedient. Hmmm. Not always. Blanket statements are hardly ever correct.

You say Eve ate of the forbidden fruit because she was beguiled... But the sin nature had not entered into man yet. Isn't it interesting that although she did not have the tendency to sin, she still did.

Just some food for thought.
Hint: There's no answer.

Wondering
BTW, YOU said Eve was not wicked -that was never MY word. I never would say Eve was wicked. The way you posted makes it seem as though I said she was...

 

[n2thelight]

I don't feel God know's what our choices will be.

Only the elect are predestined

 

[JLB]

I don't feel God know's what our choices will be.

Only the elect are predestined

Could you share the scripture, that teaches this?



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

Grace is a gift....not meant for all.

Unless you are chosen by God...you will not receive the gift of saving faith.

John 6:44 helps us understand...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

 

[Cygnus]

I don't feel God know's what our choices will be.

Only the elect are predestined

Your choice was determined before the earth was even made.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

 

[Cygnus]

When touched by this grace, man can either accept God's call and turn toward Him and away from sin, or He could reject God's call.


Wondering

Concerning salvation...man has no choice.

If people have a choice one must ask, what is it based upon? And that's where free-will completely falls apart.


We can understand that....
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Cygnus]

I think...OK...I think that we need divine grace to have faith, but not everybody who receives such grace ends up a Christian because one can resist this grace and God will only deal with people for so long before they/we are handed over to a reprobate mind.

Where does the bible say we can resist Gods calling us to salvation?

Secondly, people are born with a reprobate mind and need no handing over.

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God.
Romans 3:12
All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Mans fall is far and deep...not shallow.

 

[Cygnus]

snip

But then you cannot say that God predestined you to be saved. Which would mean that you had no choice in the matter.

Do you not see the conflict?

Wondering

That is true..."you had no choice in the matter."...you had nothing to do with your salvation. It's all God.

The conflict occurs when you think it is your choice. The question is, what do you base your choice upon?

 

[JLB]

Grace is a gift....not meant for all.

Unless you are chosen by God...you will not receive the gift of saving faith.

John 6:44 helps us understand...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” John 6:61-65

As you can see, there were some who "came to Him", but did not remain... because they did not continue to believe.

But there are some of you who do not believe...

Those who come to Him, must continue to believe, and there must abide [remain] in Him, or otherwise end up thrown into the fire and burned.


This same John went on to say...

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


The Point: those who come to Him, being drawn, must remain.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That is true..."you had no choice in the matter."...you had nothing to do with your salvation. It's all God.

Only those who choose to believe/obey Christ, are saved.

It's all about choice.



JLB