Predestination and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

The context is clear.

World = Not those of the Kingdom of God.

If the context is so clear..why do many disagree with you? Where is your theology that shows it is clear and should be taken the way you take it?

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus said: Not all people are given the gift of faith to believe.

citation please.

I think it's quite obvious...not all people go to heaven. Obviously they were not given the gift of faith.

 

[Cygnus]

Ok.

Please post the scripture that teaches us not all people are given the faith to believe.

My bible says... faith comes by hearing. Romans 10:17



JLB

Not all people hear the gospel....so i suppose they never have been given that gift. What's your point?

 

[JLB]

Not all people hear the gospel....so i suppose they never have been given that gift. What's your point?

I take it then you have no scripture to back up your claim.

If the context is so clear..why do many disagree with you?

Nobody disagrees with me.

Everyone believes John 3:16, that for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Not all people hear the gospel....so i suppose they never have been given that gift. What's your point?

Not all people are given the gift of faith to believe.

My point is; do you have a scripture to validate your "theory"?



“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

These by the wayside, heard the Gospel.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear;


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not all people hear the gospel....so i suppose they never have been given that gift. What's your point?

1 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:11-12

These by the wayside, heard the Gospel.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear;

Do you believe that God sent the devil to snatch away the Gospel message that they heard, before they could believe?

Is that what you teach people, Cygnus?


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

I take it then you have no scripture to back up your claim.



Nobody disagrees with me.

Everyone believes John 3:16, that for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life.


JLB

You've never demonstrated what the correct nuance of the world in John 3 is.
This might be to big to ask of you but here you can take the time and hear ten nuances of the word "world' used in John gospel.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/daily-video/2016/05/09/definite-atonement-part-1/

It's up to you if you want to understand thedifferent nuances.

 

[Jim Parker]

As I just showed Wondering...biblical words have several nuances.

You may THINK you showed Wondering something. You are mistaken.

Can you justify "all" as meaning every single human that has ever lived, is living or will live?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Do you know what the word "all" means or are you going to do a Bill Clinton routine and argue about what the word "all" means the way he wanted to argue about what the word "is" means?
God so loved THE WORLD that He sent his only begotten son that whosoever believed in Him would have eternal life.
You can play games with words if you like. "The world" means "the whole world." There is nothing in scripture that suggests it means, "the world except..." or "some of the world."

Did you choose that particular nuance because you think it fits your particular nuance?

No I didn't choose a "particular nuance". I don't have or need a "particular nuance" to let scripture say what it says whether I like it or not. Rather than play games with simple words (like "all"), I took the word "all" to mean "all."
And it's not "my particular nuance." It's what the scripture says I didn't have to "pick" anything. All I had to do was believe what God said.

The Universalist often take the word "all" out of context trying to make it say everyone is saved. Are you a Universalist?

No, I'm not a universalist.
And nobody's taking "all" out of context to make it mean something other than what it means in context except those who want to pervert scripture to make "all" mean "not all." If you need to play those kinds of games with words to support your theology than you should consider finding a theology that doesn't require playing word games in order for it to make sense.

Nowhere in scripture is it taught that God withholds His love from anyone.
Nowhere in scripture is it taught that God created a vast multitude of people for the express purpose of torturing them in the fires of hell for all eternity.

God wants all (that means "everyone") to be saved.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Anyway, that's my opinion. Your mileage may vary and my opinion may not operate in your Atari word game.

 

[Cygnus]

My point is; do you have a scripture to validate your "theory"?



JLB

Are you saying your theology teaches faith isn't a gift from God?

Bear with me...I'm trying to understand your theology. It's why I asked you to watch the video above to understand what "world" means.

Secondly, I think you owe it to yourself to watch the video. I think you'll enjoy it and gain a better understanding.

 

[Jim Parker]

oops

 

[Cygnus]

You may THINK you showed Wondering something. You are mistaken.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Do you know what the word "all" means or are you going to do a Bill Clinton routine and argue about what the word "all" means the way he wanted to argue about what the word "is" means?
God so loved THE WORLD that He sent his only begotten son that whosoever believed in Him would have eternal life.
You can play games with words if you like. "The world" means "the whole world." There is nothing in scripture that suggests it means, "the world except..." or "some of the world."

No I didn't choose a "particular nuance". I don't have or need a "particular nuance" to let scripture say what it says whether I like it or not. Rather than play games with simple words (like "all"), I took the word "all" to mean "all."
And it's not "my particular nuance." It's what the scripture says I didn't have to "pick" anything. All I had to do was believe what God said.

No, I'm not a universalist.
And nobody's taking "all" out of context to make it mean something other than what it means in context except those who want to pervert scripture to make "all" mean "not all." If you need to play those kinds of games with words to support your theology than you should consider finding a theology that doesn't require playing word games in order for it to make sense.

Nowhere in scripture is it taught that God withholds His love from anyone.
Nowhere in scripture is it taught that God created a vast multitude of people for the express purpose of torturing them in the fires of hell for all eternity.

God wants all (that means "everyone") to be saved.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Anyway, that's my opinion. Your mileage may vary and my opinion may not operate in your Atari word game.

Much of what you have said I agree with. BUT, like Wondering you think words have one meaning. In my previous post i showed that the word "world" has several meanings...and you seem to be turing a deaf ear to that truth.
I have to ask...when the word "world" is used in the bible...does it mean just one thing?

Please watch the video which does a far better job explaining than I could ever hope to do. It gives 10 nuances and never leaves the Gospel of John.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think it's quite obvious...not all people go to heaven. Obviously they were not given the gift of faith.

Perhaps you misunderstood.
I asked for a Biblical citation for your statement not your opinio0n of what seems obvious to you.
Please cite chapter and verse for your opinion or just admit that it is not supported by scripture.
Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please watch the video

I have absolutely no interest in watching a video in which the heresy** of Calvinism is propagated as truth.

** Calvinism was condemned as heresy by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672.

DECREE III.


We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that were contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; {1 Timothy 2:4} but since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call prevenient grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace; which, co-operating with us, and enabling us, and making us perseverant in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His prevenient grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan, the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.


But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter answering hereto — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate therewith, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.


But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater calumny can be fixed upon God? And what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? For that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him, we do know; and that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is, as is just, decreed condemnation, we do confess. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, thus to believe, or to think; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.

 

[Cygnus]

Perhaps you misunderstood.
I asked for a Biblical citation for your statement not your opinio0n of what seems obvious to you.
Please cite chapter and verse for your opinion or just admit that it is not supported by scripture.
Thank you.

Right now I see you as pretty much narrow minded...not willing to understand the meaning of the word ...world...
Untill you do...future conversations will have no meaning.

Let me know when you have watched the video.
Until then I can onlt wait.

 

[Jim Parker]

like Wondering you think words have one meaning.

Please don't tell me what I think. You have no idea what I think.

In my previous post i showed that the word "world" has several meanings...and you seem to be turing a deaf ear to that truth.

In the context of john 3:16, it is quite clear what the word "world" means. That a word may have different meanings in different contexts is no license to insert whatever meaning suits you without regard to context. There is absolutely NOTHING in John 3 to suggest that God sent His Son for "some of the world" and not others.

I have to ask...when the word "world" is used in the bible...does it mean just one thing?

Are you a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness? That's the kind of illogic they use to entrap people who are not aware of those sinister tactics. I am not one of those people.
The issue is not whether the word has different meanings in different contexts. That is a red herring. I'm not fooled by them.

 

[Jim Parker]

Right now I see you as pretty much narrow minded...not willing to understand the meaning of the word ...world..

Nonsense. I'm not willing to play your game.
And I do not appreciate being called narrow minded.
I have earned a BA and 3 masters degrees, helped found a Bible College in Russia and have taught Bible and theology for 20 years. I know what words mean.

Let me know when you have watched the video.

Don't hold your breath. I have no time to listen to heresy.

And I not that you have avoided any attempt to provide a Biblical citation for your personal opinion. (YOu didn't get that on by me either.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Where's that "like" button Jim Parker??

I second the emotion!

Wondering

 

[Mike]

AGAIN, everyone, keep your posts on your interpretation of scripture with scriptural references when refuting another's claim. Calling out others as "narrow minded" does nothing but leave the reader the impression that the poster has run out of evidence found in scripture to support his/her claim.

Do not insult other members. Do not declare what others believe. Declare what you believe, and use scripture when refuting something you've read. Members who routinely ignore the guidelines of this forum can and will be put on read-only status.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Satan believes he has a freewill.

Satan not only believes he has freewill, he does have it. He makes choices everyday. His choices are to fight against God. He didn't always do that, according to general Christian theology. He was once Lucifer and had a high position in the Kingdom of God and serve God from there. And then he made a choice that cause his fall. He could choose to turn back and serve God at this point, but he won't. And even you and I know he won't. He just has gotten so much into his pride that he is not going to. God certainly knows he won't, and God even had written down what is going to happen to Satan because he won't, but even that doesn't mean he doesn't have the choice to repent, it only means he won't.

Jn 3:16 For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Now Satan is a "whoever" and is even call prince of the air, so he is of this world. This verse, if it is true and we do believe that right, means that even Satan could choose to believe (and it is worth noting that the Greek word for believe used here is often translated 'trusts') or trust in Jesus Christ so that he saved. However Satan is not going to come underneath Jesus Christ and puts his trust in Jesus Christ as his Lord. We can all see that Satan is not going to change, but that does not mean he does have the God given ability to do so. In fact it was that God given ability that caused his to change from Lucifer (who worshiped God) to Satan ( who hates God).

And we see that same thing in people, and even ourselves if we chance to consider ourselves. WE don't want to make Jesus Christ our Lord, and put our trust in Him. If we do, we will get up every morning and choose to seeking Him for instructions, advice, counsel, wisdom, understanding, and more. Some people do that though not perfectly. I do that, but not perfectly. God knows that too, and has forgiveness of my sin, which is always a result of not seeking Jesus enough. But when I do He talks to me and I hear Him. He asked me to start a new thread about knowing Him. He specifically told me to do that, so I am going to. But that instruction came from seeking His voice and what He personally had to tell me. We can choose to seek Him or not. And the fact that He knows how we are and act even so that He knows and made plans that included all of us (even Satan who will not repent) is irrelevant to our God given ability to make a choice.

There is one difference between Satan and us. We have hope! Satan knows that because it is written down, he is not going to choose God. God can not be wrong. But you and I have the hope that we can be. That hope makes it a lot easier for us to turn back to God, but you still need to turn back and talk to Him.

The one big problem I see with some that preach predestination, (and from what I have read I don't believe John Calvin had this problem) is that predestination had sometime become an excuse for not turning back to God. Predestination should lead us to a God so great that He knows how we are and even how we would be, before the beginning of time. I believe that was what John Calvin was trying to point out. But sometimes predestination has become an excuse to not seek God or to discourage others from telling others to seek God. Now that is from Satan.

 

[JLB]

You've never demonstrated what the correct nuance of the world in John 3 is.
This might be to big to ask of you but here you can take the time and hear ten nuances of the word "world' used in John gospel.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/daily-video/2016/05/09/definite-atonement-part-1/

It's up to you if you want to understand thedifferent nuances.

More commentary and no scripture?

World = Lost people.

Jesus came to save the lost.

Do you really need ten "nuances" to understand this?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 KJV


JLB