Predestination and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

It isn't necessary that my theology be right.
But having earned a BA in English and an MA in theology and having taught both subjects at the college level, I do know how to determine the meaning of a given noun in its context.

It doesn't take any "amazing abilities" to know that R. C. Sproul is a foremost proponent of the Calvinist heresy.

And please post the scripture that teaches us not all people are given the faith to believe.
Quit sidestepping the question.
YOU said not all people are given the faith to believe.
Back it up with scripture or admit that you can't.

I already have in this thread.
Luke 8:10 He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

...God gives some the ability to hear and understand while other...they may not understand.’

Romans 9:18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

That's two ....now, where is your verse that says God gives all people the faith to believe.

 

[JLB]

WRONG.
The following is the context....The verse occurs JUST before the parable.
10He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’ 11Now this is the meaning of the parable:

The parable explains verse 10. YOU on the otherhand omit verse 10 and insert your reason for the parable.

Jesus is explaining what the parable means to His disciples.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand... is the Gospel.

The Gospel is not a parable.

Jesus didn't teach parables to the lost.
Jesus preached the Gospel to the lost.

In this parable about the Gospel, Jesus explains -

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


The context is Jesus teaching His disciples about the message of the Gospel, and those who believe, and those who don't.


Did the ones by the wayside hear the Gospel?

• Faith comes... by hearing.

Did the ones by the wayside believe the Gospel?



JLB

 

[K2CHRIST]

Jesus is explaining what the parable means to His disciples.



Jesus didn't teach parables to the lost.
Jesus preached the Gospel to the lost.

JLB

I'm not sure how this goes with the thread, but teaching and preaching are not the same thing. Jesus did teach in parables, and still does. The gospel is preached ( proclaim), and the good news we preach is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

That is to say we proclaim (preach) Jesus Christ. We don't teach people Him, we tell people about Him; that they can get to know Him. We preach that He exists and can be heard from because the Word is near you, in your heart and on your lips. That is where you will find Him.

Now we might teach in parables. And Jesus taught did that. He taught in parables to both His disciples and the lost. His disciples got understanding of the parable because like any disciples they listened to His explanation. And that is the key. If we believe in Jesus Christ we will talk to Him and listen to what He says. And I remember a day when He went of the difference between teaching and preaching with me.

 

[childeye]

Satan not only believes he has freewill, he does have it.

I would love to argue this issue with Satan, but presently I only have you to argue it with. Not that I don't appreciate your forthright and respectful dialogue, since I sincerely do.

I believe we understand the meaning of freewill differently. That is problematic since in any conversation people must first come to terms in order for it to be a productive conversation. I therefore would first remark that freewill does not mean to make choices. That is what having a 'will' means, to make choices and also to desire. But freewill however, implies freedom of action apart from any divine force or fate. It therefore implies self determination. This can be seen in any dictionary.

We both agree that pride is the issue for Satan. Hence since pride goes before a fall, the fall is not something we can easily see coming. That's why Satan does not have a freewill to exalt his throne above the stars of heaven as he supposes that he does. Instead, as we know, Satan becomes lower than all the beasts of the field, which was not his desire/will. And after serving God's purpose and not his own, his place is in the lake of fire.

So if we are to claim that God doesn't have any control over His creatures wills, then His wisdom would count for nothing.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Jim Parker]

Luke 8:10 He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

Jesus is speaking about people who are not open to hearing or seeing. He is speaking about people who are happy to "see the show" when Jesus heals the sick and casts out demons and feeds thousands with a few loaves of bread but who have no interest in hearing what God has to say and certainly not any in repenting and believing the Gospel.
It is not that Jesus is preventing them form hearing and seeing; it's that they don't want to hear or see or repent and believe.
Their refusal to see or hear is the fulfillment of scripture in which Isaiah predicted that they would not want to see or hear.
Mat 13:14-15 (RSV) With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah (6:9-10) which says: "You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them."

Luke 8:10 does NOT say that God withheld from them the ability to hear or see. It is identifying the people whom Isaiah foretold wouldn't be interested in hearing or seeing.

Romans 9:18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

That passage of Romans is not talking about salvation. It is talking about choosing the descendants of Jacob rather then the descendants of Esau.
That's what you get when you lift a "proof text" out of its context and try to make it say what it, in fact, does not say: baloney.

...where is your verse that says God gives all people the faith to believe.

I never said that God gives all people the faith to believe.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I would love to argue this issue with Satan, but presently I only have you to argue it with. Not that I don't appreciate your forthright and respectful dialogue, since I sincerely do.

I believe we understand the meaning of freewill differently. That is problematic since in any conversation people must first come to terms in order for it to be a productive conversation. I therefore would first remark that freewill does not mean to make choices. That is what having a 'will' means, to make choices and also to desire. But freewill however, implies freedom of action apart from any divine force or fate. It therefore implies self determination. This can be seen in any dictionary.

We both agree that pride is the issue for Satan. Hence since pride goes before a fall, the fall is not something we can easily see coming. That's why Satan does not have a freewill to exalt his throne above the stars of heaven as he supposes that he does. Instead, as we know, Satan becomes lower than all the beasts of the field, which was not his desire/will. And after serving God's purpose and not his own, his place is in the lake of fire.

So if we are to claim that God doesn't have any control over His creatures wills, then His wisdom would count for nothing.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It does seem like we don't have agreement about what freewill is. I wonder why that is?

This morning the Lord was talking to me about "the Frankenstein problem". He was telling me that if anyone was to try to make life they come to a problem. To be life and not like a computer, that life must have some ability to take action on it's own. This is especially true if you are going to try and make an advanced life form, because to be advanced it must be able to consider advanced issues and take action on those on it's own, otherwise you don't have life. Now the Frankenstein problem is how do you do that without creating a monster. The solution comes in teaching the life form so that it will make good decision. Yet if that life form does indeed have life, it can choose to be rebellious and not be teachable. So you have to consider that before you create it. You have to consider that you will have a monster if rebellion occurs, and rebellion will occur because you have given life. "So", He continued, "I did consider it and planned accordingly."

Then He started talking to me about a movie called "War Games". In it you have a computer whose brilliant programmer tries give life to it. The computer is given the task of controlling all the nuclear missiles in the USA. The computer starts gets ready to launch them as part of a game. In the movie they cause the computer to play tic-tac-toe in order to teach the computer before is blows up the world. Of course computers don't work that way. We might be able to simulate life but even in a futuristic movie like Star Wars, there is still a difference between life and droids. So life does act that way. If He does not teach us before we blow up the world, the world we be blown up. That is not His fault, it will our rebellion which results in not listening to Him and learning from Him that makes it happen, if it happens. And we know that something is going to happen, because we have end-times prophecies. He knows they are going to happen and He has made plans for them. Satan is going to be thrown into the lake of fire, because He would not listen and learn!

Faith comes from hearing (listening) to the Lord. And we are saved by faith. God knows what He created. He created life and with that the ability for life to make choices, even the choice to listen to the Lord. And with listening comes teaching and counsel. God can encourage us to listen but He can not take away our ability to choose and still have life. And whether we call that ability to choose our will or our freewill, that is just semantics.

If and since He has given me life, and life means I have the freedom to choose, I call it freewill as opposed to a will that is control so that I can not make decisions freely. And if someone wants to say that ability to choose is not freedom, but controlled by God, well I don't think God made me a droid but a person. That doesn't mean He did make a plan and is even involved in that plan, it only means His plan for me was life and that more abundantly. That seems obvious when I listen to Him. So again I wonder, how is it that others don't understanding this? There is something written about His words being spirit and life, and I hear from His Spirit and I get life with joy, happiness, and understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does seem like we don't have agreement about what freewill is. I wonder why that is?

This morning the Lord was talking to me about "the Frankenstein problem". He was telling me that if anyone was to try to make life they come to a problem. To be life and not like a computer, that life must have some ability to take action on it's own. This is especially true if you are going to try and make an advanced life form, because to be advanced it must be able to consider advanced issues and take action on those on it's own, otherwise you don't have life. Now the Frankenstein problem is how do you do that without creating a monster. The solution comes in teaching the life form so that it will make good decision. Yet if that life form does indeed have life, it can choose to be rebellious and not be teachable. So you have to consider that before you create it. You have to consider that you will have a monster if rebellion occurs, and rebellion will occur because you have given life. "So", He continued, "I did consider it and planned accordingly."

Then He started talking to me about a movie called "War Games". In it you have a computer whose brilliant programmer tries give life to it. The computer is given the task of controlling all the nuclear missiles in the USA. The computer starts gets ready to launch them as part of a game. In the movie they cause the computer to play tic-tac-toe in order to teach the computer before is blows up the world. Of course computers don't work that way. We might be able to simulate life but even in a futuristic movie like Star Wars, there is still a difference between life and droids. So life does act that way. If He does not teach us before we blow up the world, the world we be blown up. That is not His fault, it will our rebellion which results in not listening to Him and learning from Him that makes it happen, if it happens. And we know that something is going to happen, because we have end-times prophecies. He knows they are going to happen and He has made plans for them. Satan is going to be thrown into the lake of fire, because He would not listen and learn!

Faith comes from hearing (listening) to the Lord. And we are saved by faith. God knows what He created. He created life and with that the ability for life to make choices, even the choice to listen to the Lord. And with listening comes teaching and counsel. God can encourage us to listen but He can not take away our ability to choose and still have life. And whether we call that ability to choose our will or our freewill, that is just semantics.

If and since He has given me life, and life means I have the freedom to choose, I call it freewill as opposed to a will that is control so that I can not make decisions freely. And if someone wants to say that ability to choose is not freedom, but controlled by God, well I don't think God made me a droid but a person. That doesn't mean He did make a plan and is even involved in that plan, it only means His plan for me was life and that more abundantly. That seems obvious when I listen to Him. So again I wonder, how is it that others don't understanding this? There is something written about His words being spirit and life, and I hear from His Spirit and I get life with joy, happiness, and understanding.

Hi K2CHRIST
I really enjoyed your post - it's very good and well thought out.
Yes, God didn't make monsters or robots or computers.

Two verses come to mind; one is a favorite of mine:
Deuteronomy 30:15 and Deuteronomy 30:19

If God sets before us life and death and asks us to choose life, it must surely mean that we have a choice. That choice may be influenced by an outside force - I have no problem with that. That outside force, to me, is either God or satan. There is no third choice.

Then I think of:
John 10:10b

Jesus came that we might have life, and a life more abundant. When we follow God's ways, the end result of any choice in following God will always result in a life that will be more free of worries and will give us HIS peace. Peace, by knowing that the Creator of the universe cares for His creation and thus all worries seem small in comparison to His love. If we could envision Jesus standing right next to us at any given moment, it would make any problem seem insignificant.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

If God sets before us life and death and asks us to choose life, it must surely mean that we have a choice. That choice may be influenced by an outside force - I have no problem with that. That outside force, to me, is either God or satan. There is no third choice.

Every choice is influenced by our experiences. But it remains our choice.
Since God created man in His image, does that mean God does not have free will?

 

[GodsGrace]

Every choice is influenced by our experiences. But it remains our choice.
Since God created man in His image, does that mean God does not have free will?

K2CHRIST is arguing for free will.
If God created man in His image, then it means man has free will.

Is there a misunderstanding here??

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

If God created man in His image, then it means man has free will.

That's how I see it.

Is there a misunderstanding here??

Don't think so...

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

That's how I see it.

Don't think so...

iakov the fool

Parker,
THAT'S what I was saying also.

Wondering

 

[K2CHRIST]

Every choice is influenced by our experiences. But it remains our choice.
Since God created man in His image, does that mean God does not have free will?

Of course God is free to do as He wishes. And there is something written about Him wishing that nobody should perish. So while I do fully believe that God knows what is going to happen, and is involved is working out His plan, so that the predestination mentioned in the first chapter of Ephesians is correct. ( Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will...) Never-the-less, something must stand in the way of God doing as He wishes, and saving everyone. Remember that Jesus, through whom all things were created enter Nazareth and said He couldn't do great miracles there because of their unbelief. So I actually agree with John Calvin when he wrote, "He is ready to give himself, provided that they are only willing to believe."

So I do believe in predestination and election, but also in our God given freewill to choose Him or to not choose Him. I believe both predestination and our freewill blend perfectly together just like God planned it. Thus they both produce the results that God knew and planned before the creation began. I get great joy in this, because I seek Him and find Him. He talks to me and gives me some understanding. And He once told me that understanding is understanding that He is God. He is God and He gave me freewill to do as I wish, and of course I wish to listen to Him because listening to Him results in a love for Him. So I don't have problem with either side, but I do have a problem when people argue one side or the other. To me it indicates the might need to talk to the Lord more for understanding.

 

[Jim Parker]

Never-the-less, something must stand in the way of God doing as He wishes, and saving everyone.

What stands in the way is man's free will.

So I actually agree with John Calvin when he wrote, "He is ready to give himself, provided that they are only willing to believe."

Ans that too is free will.

 

[childeye]

It does seem like we don't have agreement about what freewill is. I wonder why that is?

I think it's partly because I'm talking about the term freewill in the moral/immoral purviews, and you're talking about freewill as in being alive and sentient. We should remember, that when mankind was created and given life, he was innocent without any knowledge of good and evil. They therefore had no comprehension of a lie, nor distrust, nor betrayal. They were not able to choose between good and evil, and also did not have any disability to distrust the intentions of their Maker.

This morning the Lord was talking to me about "the Frankenstein problem". He was telling me that if anyone was to try to make life they come to a problem. To be life and not like a computer, that life must have some ability to take action on it's own.

The issue that God is dealing with in His creation, is vanity. He intends to use the creation to reveal Who He Is.

Then He started talking to me about a movie called "War Games". In it you have a computer whose brilliant programmer tries give life to it. The computer is given the task of controlling all the nuclear missiles in the USA. The computer starts gets ready to launch them as part of a game. In the movie they cause the computer to play tic-tac-toe in order to teach the computer before is blows up the world. Of course computers don't work that way. We might be able to simulate life but even in a futuristic movie like Star Wars, there is still a difference between life and droids. So life does act that way. If He does not teach us before we blow up the world, the world we be blown up. That is not His fault, it will our rebellion which results in not listening to Him and learning from Him that makes it happen, if it happens. And we know that something is going to happen, because we have end-times prophecies. He knows they are going to happen and He has made plans for them. Satan is going to be thrown into the lake of fire, because He would not listen and learn!

God does have a plan which is why scripture says this: Romans 8:20.

Faith comes from hearing (listening) to the Lord. And we are saved by faith.

Actually we are saved by grace through faith. There's a difference. For since the high things in all their wisdom take God for granted, God chooses the lowly things to be rich in faith. 1 Corinthians 1:27, 28. Therefore it is by grace and not of ourselves lest we boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

God knows what He created. He created life and with that the ability for life to make choices, even the choice to listen to the Lord. And with listening comes teaching and counsel. God can encourage us to listen but He can not take away our ability to choose and still have life. And whether we call that ability to choose our will or our freewill, that is just semantics.

Respectfully, everything dealing with the comprehension of the meanings of words are semantics. We must deal with them if we are to listen coherently.

I therefore do not count it wise to dismiss will and freewill as the same thing. The term 'will' is a primary noun denoting a personal behavioral character. The will of the flesh is not the same as the will of the Spirit, and they are in fact contrary to one another. Galatians 5:17. Therefore a carnal willed person cannot serve God. When you put an adjective in front of the word 'will', it then describes the will. In this case the word 'free'. 'Free' however gets it's meaning from what it is free from. In the dictionary terminology, the will is supposedly free from fate or divine force, or in the moral purview, free to choose between good and evil. I have already pointed out that God did not create us free to choose between good and evil. I also would point out that without a pure image of God, it corrupts the soul, which is why death entered in. Therefore, righteousness itself is not a mere choice, but rather the product of the indwelling Spirit of God and life. If we do not attribute righteousness to God, but count righteousness as our choice, then we take God for granted in vanity by counting Him as our prerogative. This is what righteousness by works of the law refers to.

God can encourage us to listen but He can not take away our ability to choose and still have life.

Respectfully, I feel you need to re-evaluate your conclusion that we must have a choice to have life. There has never been a time when we could choose to not listen to God and live. Matthew 4:4.

 

[childeye]

So I do believe in predestination and election, but also in our God given freewill to choose Him or to not choose Him.

Scripture says that when men don't believe, it is because they are blinded by the god of this world. The term 'blinded' does not indicate they are free to choose, but rather that they cannot see so as to believe. It seems to me that if people were free to choose, scriptures would say that men can clearly see and decide for themselves. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

 

[childeye]

K2CHRIST is arguing for free will.
If God created man in His image, then it means man has free will.

Is there a misunderstanding here??

Wondering

To me, to be created in God's Image means mankind had the same Character as God. God has no darkness in Him and He cannot by nature choose to be wicked. But upon losing their innocence, wickedness did manifest in mankind, as did death.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me, to be created in God's Image means mankind had the same Character as God. God has no darkness in Him and He cannot by nature choose to be wicked. But upon losing their innocence, wickedness did manifest in mankind, as did death.

No one has God's character. Are you serious?

God made us with some of His attributes:
Rational: Reflects God's intellect and freedom
Morality: Reflects God's holiness
Socially: Reflects God's nature of Love

The innocence you refer to would be reflected in our attribute of Morality. Of course, we have lost that innocence. As evidenced by:
Our conscience (a remnant of that innocent state)
Recoiling from evil
Praising good behavior
Feelings of guilt
All of our man-made laws reflect God's morality which has been passed on to us.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture says that when men don't believe, it is because they are blinded by the god of this world. The term 'blinded' does not indicate they are free to choose, but rather that they cannot see so as to believe. It seems to me that if people were free to choose, scriptures would say that men can clearly see and decide for themselves. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

The "god" of THIS WORLD has blinded some. Because ii's easier to follow a god or find pleasure in a god rather than in God.
1 Corinthians 2:14

GOD does not blind anybody and has revealed Himself from the beginning:
Romans 1:19-20

But some prefer to ignore Him:
Romans 1:21-22

W

 

[OzSpen]

So I actually agree with John Calvin when he wrote, "He is ready to give himself, provided that they are only willing to believe."

I don't know whether Calvin said that or not as you didn't provide a source for your quote. [Edit: I located this Calvin quote in his commentary on John 6:46-51. It is in his comments on 6:49]

This I know from my research of Calvin: Did John Calvin believe in double predestination? The answer is: Yes, Calvin believed in double predestination - some predestined to salvation and the remainder predestined to damnation.

How is it possible to believe in free will if he preached double predestination?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know whether Calvin said that or not as you didn't provide a source for your quote. [Edit: I located this Calvin quote in his commentary on John 6:46-51. It is in his comments on 6:49]

This I know from my research of Calvin: Did John Calvin believe in double predestination? The answer is: Yes, Calvin believed in double predestination - some predestined to salvation and the remainder predestined to damnation.

How is it possible to believe in free will if he preached double predestination?

Oz

Thank you Oz.

K2CHRIST has me a bit confused and I may have agreed with him too soon in a previous post.

Wondering