Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Chopper]

Can you point out in my post, where I mentioned your phrase "puts man is in control"?


As anyone can see, I never said these words.

• Man has a freewill to choose.

That's not "putting man in control", that just recognizing that man has to make a choice to believe or not, because God will not do the "believing" for man.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:14


God is in control, and allows us to make choices everyday.

When man makes a choice to obey God, though he can not see Him, this pleases and glorifies God.


For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

God prepared beforehand, good works for us to walk in, but that doesn't mean we will walk in all of them, or any of them.

It takes a conscious choice for man to make, and the longer man remains in Christ, the more likely he will choose more and more to be fruitful in good works, that are inspired from within; from the nature of Christ maturing within.


Paul made sure he made it clear, over and over about maintaining good works, because man doesn't always make good choices.

• 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. Titus 3:8

• 14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14

God will indeed send people into our lives to correct us and turn us in the right direction, but it is still up to us to take heed.


Choose this day whom you will serve...



JLB

Hmm, I'm of the understanding that free will choice puts man in charge not God.

 

[Nathan]

We will have to disagree to some degree

Fair enough.

So, you say to some degree, I know you don't have any desire to go all crazy and write a three page essay - so I tried to think of a question that best sums up what I just cannot get my mind wrapped around(reason for starting the thread) - but really want to understand.

Do you think man has any free will?

 

[Nathan]

Hmm, I'm of the understanding that free will choice puts man in charge not God.

If God gives man free will, wouldn't that mean God is in charge?

 

[reba]

Fair enough.

So, you say to some degree, I know you don't have any desire to go all crazy and write a three page essay - so I tried to think of a question that best sums up what I just cannot get my mind wrapped around(reason for starting the thread) - but really want to understand.

Do you think man has any free will?

I will answer after i ask why is it so important to you to have your will that is a personal rhetorical question not a theological one ..
Not a cop out answer but here goes .. those out side of God do...more then we do... (I am no scholar DUH this is emotions talking .. )

Who does God give over to a reprobate mind?

I do not believe this is a black and white issue...

ever been winding around a curvy back road complaining because of the poky old lady in front of you .. only to realize had you used your 'freewill ' to pass her you would have been in that 3 car pile up?

Personal story:
Sometimes what ya want is KFC dont want wife/moms home cooking you want KFC.. And John wanted KFC..after a long day working in 100+ heat he can have KFC.. the kids saw this a day of fast food but they wanted Taco Bell .. I had to to do the running so for me it was one or the other.. Shock of all shocks John agreed to TB ... So the kids and i are off.... John's freewill of wanting KFC would have put us in the middle of a KFC robbery where a couple people were shot.. .. God protected us....

 

[reba]

Do you think man has any free will?

I dont think i answered clearly...
Some do some dont.. That is not a cope out that is what i believe/think..

Pharaoh did not.. other Egyptians say the average joes did.. Esau and Jacob did not.. Judas did not The 5000 on the mount did ...Paul found out he did not

Now i will hid behind the couch cuz the bullets will be flying

 

[Nathan]

I dont think i answered clearly...
Some do some dont.. That is not a cope out that is what i believe/think..

Pharaoh did not.. other Egyptians say the average joes did.. Esau and Jacob did not.. Judas did not The 5000 on the mount did ...Paul found out he did not

Now i will hid behind the couch cuz the bullets will be flying

Actually, I thought your first answer was more clear. I'd like to answer the rhetorical question though in a min.

 

[Nathan]

I will answer after i ask why is it so important to you to have your will that is a personal rhetorical question not a theological one ..
Not a cop out answer but here goes .. those out side of God do...more then we do... (I am no scholar DUH this is emotions talking .. )

Who does God give over to a reprobate mind?

I do not believe this is a black and white issue...

ever been winding around a curvy back road complaining because of the poky old lady in front of you .. only to realize had you used your 'freewill ' to pass her you would have been in that 3 car pile up?

Personal story:
Sometimes what ya want is KFC dont want wife/moms home cooking you want KFC.. And John wanted KFC..after a long day working in 100+ heat he can have KFC.. the kids saw this a day of fast food but they wanted Taco Bell .. I had to to do the running so for me it was one or the other.. Shock of all shocks John agreed to TB ... So the kids and i are off.... John's freewill of wanting KFC would have put us in the middle of a KFC robbery where a couple people were shot.. .. God protected us....

Its important to me to know that I have 'free' will. Not so much that I have it, but that I know it.

I can revert back to the discussion about Mary for a recent example. It was important to God, for her to know that she had "found favor". In that way He was telling her that He knew that her faith would accept this role in His plan - that she pleased God with her 'free' will.

The same is with me. I find it important to know that God gives me the choice to follow Him, knowing that by doing it I please Him - knowing that He allowed me to do it, and gave me the ability to do it. If I thought that I had to choose Him, or not choose Him, then I could not have any feelings toward Him - it would be impossible to love Him because love requires a choice.

The same way I know He loves me because He allowed me the choice. So without 'free' will, there would be no two way street - no possible way to love God.

I whole heartily agree with your above thought that those inside have 'limited free' will, while those outside are more or less left to their own desires - not total free will, but total free will to disobey. They can't change the plan of God - no one can.

I also find it important to know I have 'free' will in order to see the things written in the Bible as non-contradicting. If I believe man has total free will, control over more than God's choice He gives, then some things don't make sense. If I believe man has no free will, then other things don't make sense. But understanding God gives certain choices to us, for us to use the free will He gives, then everything makes sense.

That's why the statement by John Macarthur doesn't make sense to me.

 

[reba]

Thanks

 

[JLB]

Hmm, I'm of the understanding that free will choice puts man in charge not God.

How did you come to that conclusion?

How does a person make the choice to believe or not to believe, if not because they have the freedom to do so?


JLB

 

[Chopper]

If God gives man free will, wouldn't that mean God is in charge?

Once God gives man free will, it's out of God's control onto man.

 

[Chopper]

How did you come to that conclusion?

How does a person make the choice to believe or not to believe, if not because they have the freedom to do so?


JLB

You just answered your question.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You just answered your question.

Touche'

 

[GodsGrace]

Once God gives man free will, it's out of God's control onto man.

Hi chopper

If we don't have free will, doesn't that make us into the proverbial robots?
Did God want robots, or did He want freely given love and obedience?

If God is Love, He must want true love.
If we don't have the free will to give it, now is it real love?

 

[JLB]

Pharaoh did not.. other Egyptians say the average joes did.. Esau and Jacob did not.. Judas did not The 5000 on the mount did ...Paul found out he did not

Some scripture would be nice, and some explanation as to how your views line up with the scripture you present.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmm, I'm of the understanding that free will choice puts man in charge not God.

Free will choice certainly Does put us in charge!
But not of the functioning of the universe.
Only of our free will choices.
To believe or not to believe.
To go to college or not to go.
To get a job or stay home and sleep.
If God made all the choices for us, Why would I ever have to listen to a sermon that tells me to live as God would want me to?
Anyway, it's Him making all the choices.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Before salvation does anyone have free will in reference to God. Before salvation man is a slave to sin, he has no choice. He can only serve sin(the devil); no one can please God outside of Jesus Christ. After salvation, a saint has the ability to be pleasing to God by faith of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only one that God said, " I am well pleased with." James said in chapter 4, " To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." This is free will.

 

[JLB]

You just answered your question.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

I answered my question as to man's freewill to choose, because God does not make the choice to serve Him for us.

That choice is left up to us.


Maybe you could share some scriptures that teach us man has no freewill to choose.

• Esau made his choice to trade his inheritance for a bowl of food.

... lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. Hebrews 12:16

• Pharaoh chose to be stubborn and harden his heart.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said. Exodus 8:15

But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

• We are told to make the choice not to harden our hearts, because of our salvation.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Hebrews 3:12-15


Each of us has the ability to choose whether to heed what the Lord says, and be blessed, or disregard what the Lord says, and be cursed.

• The Lord gave the children of Israel the same choice as He gave the Pharaoh.

and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.” Exodus 15:26




JLB

 

[Chopper]

Hi chopper

If we don't have free will, doesn't that make us into the proverbial robots?
Did God want robots, or did He want freely given love and obedience?

If God is Love, He must want true love.
If we don't have the free will to give it, now is it real love?

I've got nothing against free will. We need it and God gave it to us. I was answering JLB and stating that with free will, we are in charge, not a robot like you said.

 

[GodsGrace]

dirtfarmer here

Before salvation does anyone have free will in reference to God. Before salvation man is a slave to sin, he has no choice. He can only serve sin(the devil); no one can please God outside of Jesus Christ. After salvation, a saint has the ability to be pleasing to God by faith of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only one that God said, " I am well pleased with." James said in chapter 4, " To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." This is free will.

Hi Dirtfarmer
I agree that before salvation we are serving satan.
But wasn't it my free will that made me turn away from him and walk toward God?
Please explain better what you mean about AFTER salvation.
I do believe that true freedom is only in God.
But this is different to me from free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've got nothing against free will. We need it and God gave it to us. I was answering JLB and stating that with free will, we are in charge, not a robot like you said.

It seemed to me that you were saying that we are in charge in a negative way.