GodsGrace
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Just to clarify,
I said we'd be like robots if we DIDN'T have free will...
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
- Thread starter Nathan
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I said we'd be like robots if we DIDN'T have free will...
Nathan
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This is what I don't understand, when people read these passages that actually say "choose" and then turn around and say we don't have a choice?
How can you believe anything else in the Bible if you don't believe those passages? And if those passages don't mean we actually chose, why did they use the words chose?
These were just my thoughts after I read your post is all. Not so much questions toward you.
GodsGrace
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My belief, Nathan, is that we tend to discard those parts of scripture that do not agree with what we believe...This is what I don't understand, when people read these passages that actually say "choose" and then turn around and say we don't have a choice?
How can you believe anything else in the Bible if you don't believe those passages? And if those passages don't mean we actually chose, why did they use the words chose?
These were just my thoughts after I read your post is all. Not so much questions toward you.
Calvin, as far as I'm concerned, really messed things up.
To adhere to his beliefs, that whole bible would have to be rewritten.
Whole passages don't mean what they say, words don't mean what they mean, concepts don't agree with other concepts. The bible is picked at, instead of being read as a whole and complete thought.
Which is one of the reasons the bible is such a stupendous book. Think of all the writers, think of the time it took to write, and it's one complete thought.
Incredible.
But you knew all this...
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Nathan
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Well, its good to know I am not the only one confused by it then.
Sad, but comforting.It honestly drives me harder to want to know why though. There has to be a reason. I would consider this subject 50 times easier to see "proof" of than eternal life and salvation. So when I hear of people I truly believe to be believers in Christ think that we don't have a choice to believe in Christ, I scratch my head.
I mean, come on, that statement in and of itself would be false. You can't say "I'm a believer", you could only say "I....."
Well, I don't know what you could say. Because if you have no choice, then I guess you can only say what God wants you to say.
Man, it confuses me each time I try to wrap my mind around it.
- Jul 13, 2012
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This is what I don't understand, when people read these passages that actually say "choose" and then turn around and say we don't have a choice?
How can you believe anything else in the Bible if you don't believe those passages? And if those passages don't mean we actually chose, why did they use the words chose?
These were just my thoughts after I read your post is all. Not so much questions toward you.
Drop the name calling edited by reba,,
This is the foundation which the OSAS doctrine is built upon.
- Some are chosen by God to be saved: They can never lose their salvation... Because God is in control.
- While others are chosen by God to burn in hell: No matter what they do, in the end they will be cast into the fires of hell....Because God is in control.
Here's a question for those who teach and believe in OSAS.
If a person's name is written in the book of Life, before the foundation of the world, then why would God blot them out of His book, later on based on their choices?
...and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19
and again
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 20:5
Man has a freewill.
Adam made a choice to disregard what God said.
If Adam didn't have a choice then it would have been impossible for him to disobey God.
JLB
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To all members ..To many of us are like chickens picking on one another til death..
Calvinism nor Armeanism However is should the spelled is not in this paragraph of the TOS
Members who refuse to be respectful to one another will have thread privileges revoked..
2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed:
You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussion of these doctrines are is fine, as long as the beliefs foreign to Christianity (as defined above) are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity. This includes Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine where discussion is limited to and only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.
Calvinism nor Armeanism However is should the spelled is not in this paragraph of the TOS
Members who refuse to be respectful to one another will have thread privileges revoked..
2.2: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed:
You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Discussion of these doctrines are is fine, as long as the beliefs foreign to Christianity (as defined above) are not actively promoted or held in balance with orthodox Christianity. This includes Full Preterism, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Salvation, Serpent seed, Dual Seed or Two-Seedline doctrine where discussion is limited to and only allowed in the 1 on 1 Debate Forum. This is a Christian Forum as the name suggests.
GodsGrace
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Hi PZ
I sure hope it's close to St. Patrick's Day!!
I think the subject of free will is very important.
We agree that God is God, but HOW we understand Him has a lot to do with how we feel ABOUT Him.
For instance, if we don't have free will ---
HOW could we possibly be held responsible for our sins?
And yet the entire N.T. tells us to avoid sin. HOW do we avoid sin, if we don't have free will ???
If it's God who decides, then I absolve myself of all responsibility !
Nathan
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Romans 9:8-24
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
This whole passage is written for our understanding of God's purpose of election. Which, we should define election as - the opposite of any works based salvation. It is God based salvation, clearly defined in Ephesians 2:8-9
We are told specifically that God chose Isaac in order to show this purpose. Paul gives insight by using two different OT passages. These two passages were not written together, and should not be viewed as such. Paul was writing it in order for the reader to interpret the one based on the other. Notice the words "as it is written". If Paul was combining them, as he does sometimes with other passages, he would have used the words "and again" or "and _____ says".
Paul lays it out in order, from God's perspective. God knew the older would serve the younger because of the choices they made - before they were ever born(passage in Genesis). How did He know this? It started with Esau selling his birthright and down spiraled from there into the displeasure God had toward him(passage in Malachi).
It is so clear when we just look at this passage and see the order;
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he
predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Foreknowledge is before predestination, then calling, then justifying, then glorifying.
Again, we see the fact that predestination is based on foreknowledge in order that salvation is based on grace(through faith) not works;
Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
I think its wise we understand the difference between;
1. Foreknowledge - God knows what will happen, beginning to end(for all things)
2. Predestination - God has a plan specific for those who He foreknows will choose Him(believe in Him)
3. Election - At some point in a believers life God 'calls them' in order that they cannot boast and base salvation from works they have done.
4. Justification - God applies the payment for sin to our account. This is manifested in the sanctification process we go through.
5. Glorification - God glorifies Himself through the glory He places on us. We are a reflection of His love to others, so they see Him in us.
We see, through faith, the outworking of all of these in our lives. That's a view from God's perspective. But we cannot lay aside that from a human perspective these things take place in order.
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
This whole passage is written for our understanding of God's purpose of election. Which, we should define election as - the opposite of any works based salvation. It is God based salvation, clearly defined in Ephesians 2:8-9
We are told specifically that God chose Isaac in order to show this purpose. Paul gives insight by using two different OT passages. These two passages were not written together, and should not be viewed as such. Paul was writing it in order for the reader to interpret the one based on the other. Notice the words "as it is written". If Paul was combining them, as he does sometimes with other passages, he would have used the words "and again" or "and _____ says".
Paul lays it out in order, from God's perspective. God knew the older would serve the younger because of the choices they made - before they were ever born(passage in Genesis). How did He know this? It started with Esau selling his birthright and down spiraled from there into the displeasure God had toward him(passage in Malachi).
It is so clear when we just look at this passage and see the order;
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he
predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Foreknowledge is before predestination, then calling, then justifying, then glorifying.
Again, we see the fact that predestination is based on foreknowledge in order that salvation is based on grace(through faith) not works;
Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
I think its wise we understand the difference between;
1. Foreknowledge - God knows what will happen, beginning to end(for all things)
2. Predestination - God has a plan specific for those who He foreknows will choose Him(believe in Him)
3. Election - At some point in a believers life God 'calls them' in order that they cannot boast and base salvation from works they have done.
4. Justification - God applies the payment for sin to our account. This is manifested in the sanctification process we go through.
5. Glorification - God glorifies Himself through the glory He places on us. We are a reflection of His love to others, so they see Him in us.
We see, through faith, the outworking of all of these in our lives. That's a view from God's perspective. But we cannot lay aside that from a human perspective these things take place in order.
Nathan
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How would you define "sovereign"? I looked it up in the KJV of the Bible so I could see what it means and they don't use the word. It seems to be a word used by the NIV, NLT, and NET the most. There are other versions that use it, including the ESV, but it only occurs at most 3 times in some and only once in others.
When I cross reference those versus it does occur in, it means "master" having the "supreme being" connotation. Other places it is combined with the word "O Lord". And when it is used a lot in the other versions it is translated as "holy" in the KJV and others.
So I guess I am wondering how sovereignty negates free will? I cannot see where the word sovereign means denial of others free will?
I am just curious if there is something else I can look to in order to understand why people think the word sovereign means that is all.
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Furthermore, The context of these passages refer to predestination according to purpose, not predestination according to salvation.
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” Romans 9:1-9
The purpose is the lineage of The messiah, Jesus Christ.
Paul is describing those whom God chose to be the lineage of the messiah, not whom God chose to be saved, vs those whom He chose to be damned.
JLB
Edward
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Boy oh boy, mankind sure does work hard to absolve themselves from any responsibility. Inside myself, I can't understand how anyone could even doubt that we have free will?
Ok, you all that think that we do not have free will...riddle me this...
Do you have any faith in God?
No matter what you answer, you have just exercised your free will. You can't see that?
Have you ever stolen anything? Even a pack of gum? If we have no free will, then...you're saying that God made you do that? (God doesn't tempt man.)
Exactly, Sister. I'm not sure what those people will think that they will do one day when they stand before the judgement seat...point fingers at Jesus???!!!!
God's Word is not froward, nor misleading or anything of the sort. It says what it means and means what it says, and it's all over scripture....choose who you will follow this day, choose life...choose choose choose.
Love is a choice. This is real simple stuff, the simplicity of the gospel of our Lord. Don't be afraid to accept your own responsibility. I did it. I'm sorry. I repent of it. I lay it at the feet of my Lord. A choice. A...free will.
Ok, you all that think that we do not have free will...riddle me this...
Do you have any faith in God?
No matter what you answer, you have just exercised your free will. You can't see that?
Have you ever stolen anything? Even a pack of gum? If we have no free will, then...you're saying that God made you do that? (God doesn't tempt man.)
Exactly, Sister. I'm not sure what those people will think that they will do one day when they stand before the judgement seat...point fingers at Jesus???!!!!
God's Word is not froward, nor misleading or anything of the sort. It says what it means and means what it says, and it's all over scripture....choose who you will follow this day, choose life...choose choose choose.
Love is a choice. This is real simple stuff, the simplicity of the gospel of our Lord. Don't be afraid to accept your own responsibility. I did it. I'm sorry. I repent of it. I lay it at the feet of my Lord. A choice. A...free will.
GodsGrace
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Nathan
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I see what your saying, but Paul is quite clear that the purpose is for election. I'm not saying I disagree, we might be seeing the same thing from opposite sides of the room. Of course, that election comes from Christ - the lineage of Christ - because it is all based on the faith of Abraham.
Romans 4:13-17
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Foreknowledge of those who would have the faith of Abraham, Jew and Gentile, leads to predestination in the roles they play inside of God's plan. Which manifests itself through election - not on our good or bad deeds - but because of what Christ has done. The true olive tree.
This is why Paul goes on in chapter 11 to give us a distinct image of what takes place. We see God does give them a "spirit of stupor" and "eyes that can't see" and "ears that cannot hear" - but He does this for a purpose(as you point out its ALL about purpose). However, God does not do this so that they cannot choose Him ever;
Romans 11:11-32
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches.
If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery,brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Its quite clear. God gives a partial hardening to them. Not a full hardening, because then they would not be able to come back. But a partial one so that IF they turn to Him in belief, then they will be grafted back in the tree. He gives them a choice to believe or not ultimately.
The same thing happened to pharaoh. Except God knew that pharaoh would not turn in belief, so a full hardening was applied in the end.
GodsGrace
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Jethro Bodine
Jethro posted on a different thread:
Most likely the correct answer is He knew ahead of time that she'd respond favorably. Just like he knew ahead of time Judas would respond unfavorably.
Knowing ahead of time how people will respond to his grace, God can position them in life to accomplish his agenda, and that includes bearing with patience the people he forms whom he already knows ahead of time will reject him and resist his purposes. Even they can be used to bring glory to God (i.e. Pharaoh, Judas).
As atpollard pointed out, each vessel God creates gets to have his own free will, but God's ultimate plan and purpose that he wills is still not violated in the practice of our free will. That's why I use the rat maze as the illustration. Us rats are free to roam around at will wherever it is in the maze that God's has willed that we can do that. It's really quite simple. In his foreknowledge--knowing how each of us is going to respond to his grace--God assigns us a place to run around in our free will in the part of the maze that suits his purposes. Pharaoh's part of the maze was being head over Egypt at a specific time in history. Judas' part of the maze was being one of the Twelve at that specific time in history. Each exercised their free will, but within the sphere of God's will.
Paul talks about the boundaries of the rat maze here:
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation..." (Acts 17:26 NASB)
If it turns out that a person God intends to patiently make and raise up has 'soil' that He knows won't support righteous growth, he puts him in a time and place where that person can exercise his free will to not grow the Word of God, but which will still not violate and destroy God's purpose to accomplish what He has in mind for establishing an eternal kingdom. In fact, that person can be used to accomplish that ends despite his rejection of God.
Jethro
Maybe I'll just sit back and read for a while...
I do have a problem with Romans 9 and Also Acts 27, now that you bring it up.
They both seem to say to me that God decided.
No more time now. Will read all and post later on.
P.S.
I DO BELIEVE IN FREE WILL.
I'm just saying that MAYBE in some cases, God does decide - in very special cases.
Later.
Jethro posted on a different thread:
Most likely the correct answer is He knew ahead of time that she'd respond favorably. Just like he knew ahead of time Judas would respond unfavorably.
Knowing ahead of time how people will respond to his grace, God can position them in life to accomplish his agenda, and that includes bearing with patience the people he forms whom he already knows ahead of time will reject him and resist his purposes. Even they can be used to bring glory to God (i.e. Pharaoh, Judas).
As atpollard pointed out, each vessel God creates gets to have his own free will, but God's ultimate plan and purpose that he wills is still not violated in the practice of our free will. That's why I use the rat maze as the illustration. Us rats are free to roam around at will wherever it is in the maze that God's has willed that we can do that. It's really quite simple. In his foreknowledge--knowing how each of us is going to respond to his grace--God assigns us a place to run around in our free will in the part of the maze that suits his purposes. Pharaoh's part of the maze was being head over Egypt at a specific time in history. Judas' part of the maze was being one of the Twelve at that specific time in history. Each exercised their free will, but within the sphere of God's will.
Paul talks about the boundaries of the rat maze here:
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation..." (Acts 17:26 NASB)
If it turns out that a person God intends to patiently make and raise up has 'soil' that He knows won't support righteous growth, he puts him in a time and place where that person can exercise his free will to not grow the Word of God, but which will still not violate and destroy God's purpose to accomplish what He has in mind for establishing an eternal kingdom. In fact, that person can be used to accomplish that ends despite his rejection of God.
Jethro
Maybe I'll just sit back and read for a while...
I do have a problem with Romans 9 and Also Acts 27, now that you bring it up.
They both seem to say to me that God decided.
No more time now. Will read all and post later on.
P.S.
I DO BELIEVE IN FREE WILL.
I'm just saying that MAYBE in some cases, God does decide - in very special cases.
Later.
totally agree
Nathan
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I know your post was directed toward Jethro, but you made a comment that I find hard to understand.
If God decides in certain cases, then how does one know if they are that certain case or not? To me its kind of like a light in a completely enclosed room. Either the light is on, or there is no light. The light can be "kind of" on, or even a "little" on, but its still on. When its off, there is zero light.
So, if God chooses in some cases, then no one can know if they are that case or not. Then, when Paul and others encourage "believers"(maybe?) about it, how can the believers say "yes, that's me"? They could only say, "I hope that's me. I hope I am one of the chosen ones".