Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Christianity would be OK ... if it wasn't for the people.
[I need a time out]

When you return, I do have a question I hope you can answer from your point of view. It was good to hear it about the free will thing.

So it brought up a question. If you believe all humans have free will, why would God limit it when it comes to the ability to have faith in Christ? Or is that not actually what the reformed theology teaches?

I see that you believe not everyone will believe, but it seems that there is more to it than that.

I'm pretty sure even Armenians believe not all will believe. I know I believe that also. So maybe our thoughts are not too far apart?

 

[Jim Parker]

Christianity would be OK ... if it wasn't for the people.

Every church has that same problem.....

 

[Nathan]

Lamentations 3:31-33
31 For the Lord will not cast off forever,
32 but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33 for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men.

​

 

[Nathan]

Acts 17:24-31
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
28 for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'
29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

It seems to me, that is God made all mankind from one man, set their boundaries, set their times, all so that they would seek Him - in the hope that they will find Him -

Then He would not pick some to be without a chance to do so.

If He commands, all people everywhere, to repent -
Then He would not pick some to be without a chance to do so.

Thoughts?

 

[atpollard]

If you believe all humans have free will, why would God limit it when it comes to the ability to have faith in Christ?

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[atpollard]

Thoughts?

in the hope that they will find Him

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[JLB]

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Yes, just like you and me and everyone else who is now a believer, we at one time were "blind" to Jesus, but thank God that we can now see.

I once was blind, but now I see.

It's called amazing grace, the power of God unto salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him...,16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:1-5,16

At this point, was Judas a sheep or a wolf?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him...,16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Matthew 10:1-5,16

At this point, was Judas a sheep or a wolf?

JLB

My point was: (John 10:16) "must bring", "shall listen" and "there shall be" ... God does not

hope that they will find Him

I am disengaging from debates on opinions and simply presenting God's words for you to argue with him (or not).

With respect to Judas, who cares?

 

[JLB]

My point was: (John 10:16) "must bring", "shall listen" and "there shall be" ... God does not 'hope'.
I am disengaging from debates on opinions and simply presenting God's words for you to argue with him (or not).

With respect to Judas, who cares?

It's God's word, that describes a very real principle concerning Judas... so I care.

Here is God's word for you choose to believe or not.

Judas is a living example, of the teaching about the sheep who became lost.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him...,16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:1-5,16


Judas was a sheep, who heard the Sheppard's Voice, and followed Him, then became lost.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The god of this age (small g) is satan. He is not God.

 

[JLB]

My point was: (John 10:16) "must bring", "shall listen" and "there shall be" ... God does not

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


A sheep that belongs to the Shepherd can indeed become lost, in need of someone to turn him back to the Shepherd. [Repentance]

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...

At this point, the sheep who was part of the flock, becomes lost.

To be sure what "lost" means, please refer to the context for clarification.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Lost means = a sinner who is in need of repentance to be reconciled back to the Lord.

Lost = Sinner: one who is separated from God.


Please understand that it is indeed possible for a sheep, who who belongs to God, to become "lost", as a sinner who is separated from God, and is "lost".


By default, if you never own something, then that something can not become lost, since you never had possession of it.

You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

The god of this age (small g) is satan. He is not God.

Yes he is, but if I say that in response to Nathan's question, I will get an argument on a theology bunny trail. Nathan needs to figure it out for himself and I need to stop trying to explain it. Nathan is accusing the wrong 'god' of the crime.

 

[atpollard]

A sheep that belongs to the Shepherd can indeed become lost, in need of someone to turn him back to the Shepherd. [Repentance]
At this point, the sheep who was part of the flock, becomes lost.
Please understand that it is indeed possible for a sheep, who who belongs to God, to become "lost", as a sinner who is separated from God, and is "lost".
By default, if you never own something, then that something can not become lost, since you never had possession of it.
You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.
JLB

WHAT does this have to do with whether God "HOPES" things will happen or God "MAKES" things happen?
Why are you addressing your response to me? It has nothing to do with my post.

 

[JLB]

WHAT does this have to do with whether God "HOPES" things will happen or God "MAKES" things happen?
Why are you addressing your response to me? It has nothing to do with my post.

Here is what I quoted: your point.

My point was: (John 10:16) "must bring", "shall listen" and "there shall be" ... God does not

Here is my point: You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


A sheep that belongs to the Shepherd can indeed become lost, in need of someone to turn him back to the Shepherd. [Repentance]

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...

At this point, the sheep who was part of the flock, becomes lost.

To be sure what "lost" means, please refer to the context for clarification.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Lost means = a sinner who is in need of repentance to be reconciled back to the Lord.

Lost = Sinner: one who is separated from God.


Please understand that it is indeed possible for a sheep, who who belongs to God, to become "lost", as a sinner who is separated from God, and is "lost".


By default, if you never own something, then that something can not become lost, since you never had possession of it.

You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


A sheep that belongs to the Shepherd can indeed become lost, in need of someone to turn him back to the Shepherd. [Repentance]

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...

At this point, the sheep who was part of the flock, becomes lost.

To be sure what "lost" means, please refer to the context for clarification.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Lost means = a sinner who is in need of repentance to be reconciled back to the Lord.

Lost = Sinner: one who is separated from God.


Please understand that it is indeed possible for a sheep, who who belongs to God, to become "lost", as a sinner who is separated from God, and is "lost".


By default, if you never own something, then that something can not become lost, since you never had possession of it.

You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Is the "one" that is lost that the shepherd finds not a "sheep" from the time it wanders off to the time the shepherd finds "his lost sheep". What was the "lost one", a wolf or a lion, or a pig? no it was still a sheep, but fellowship from the shepherd had been broken. The relationship was still in tact, the was sheep still a sheep and belonged to the shepherd and the shepherd was still the shepherd of that sheep.

If you lose your wallet is it not still your wallet? While you are hunting for your wallet is it not your property? Sheep know their shepherd's voice and will not follow a stranger's voice.

It is my belief that when a person receives salvation they are a saint not a sinner. There is no scripture that states that a believer is still a sinner, but we do find that they once(past tense) were a sinner but they are now saints by the grace of God.

 

[JLB]

Is the "one" that is lost that the shepherd finds not a "sheep" from the time it wanders off to the time the shepherd finds "his lost sheep".

The sheep that became lost, was still a sheep, just as other sheep who never belonged to the Shepherd, were also sheep.

If a person who belongs to the Lord, becomes lost, they don't become a lion or a pig, or a wolf, they are still a human being, that is lost.


Just as if a person who is lost, and then is found, is still a human being.


Lost = Sinner in need of repentance.

By default, if you never own something, then that something can not become lost, since you never had possession of it.

You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is my belief that when a person receives salvation they are a saint not a sinner.

I agree.

There is no scripture that states that a believer is still a sinner, but we do find that they once(past tense) were a sinner but they are now saints by the grace of God.

A believer who is reconciled to God is son, and a saint.

A believer who wanders from the truth, like the sheep who became lost, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

If a sheep wanders away from the Shepherd, and becomes lost, then that sheep needs to have someone turn him back [repentance] to the Shepherd, Who is the Truth, and the way, and the Life, in order to avoid eternal death.

• You actually have to possess something first, for it to become lost.
• This eliminates the idea that they never belonged to the Lord. [Never were saved]

JLB

 

[Nathan]

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ok, that does help a lot. So it's not God who doesn't allow a chance, it's satan who keeps unbelievers in darkness. But that brings up the question why it's believed those in darkness cannot come to the light?

Acts 26:15-18
15 And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles-to whom I am sending you
18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Seems to me that everyone starts out in darkness, under the power of satan.

 

[Nathan]

John 10:14-16
“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,
27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

You don't see that this is from two different points of view?

One is from Christ seeing the ones who will listen and Paul telling the hearers that God wants them to turn.