Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[atpollard]

deleted bunny trail.

 

[Nathan]

Let me try a completely different approach to this topic. A common theme is that God is not good/just if ... then insert something about sin and forgiveness and free will. Let me make a statement and request that anyone who wishes refute it from scripture:

God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURE.

What I find most interesting is how God needs to be defended in His justice. I personally look at God's justice and am overcome with thankfulness that He is just and holy. While I see others defend that God is just and holy for doing things that go against justice and holiness. To be "just" is to judge rightly. God cannot rightly judge someone who has no choice. If God confines all mankind in sin, then mankind has no choice but to sin. So what does God judge rightly on in order to be just? His Son. If God withholds His Son - His forgiveness of sin, so if some of mankind cannot make a choice, then He cannot judge them justly.

You ask for Scripture so I will give it;

The following is taken from Job chapters 34-36;

Then Elihu answered and said:

“Hear my words, you wise men,
and give ear to me, you who know;
for the ear tests words
as the palate tastes food.

Let us choose what is right;
let us know among ourselves what is good.
For Job has said, ‘I am in the right,
and God has taken away my right;
in spite of my right I am counted a liar;
my wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’

What man is like Job,
who drinks up scoffing like water,
who travels in company with evildoers
and walks with wicked men?
For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
that he should take delight in God.’

“Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding:
far be it from God that he should do wickedness,
and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.

For according to the work of a man he will repay him,
and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Of a truth, God will not do wickedly,
and the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Who gave him charge over the earth,
and who laid on him the whole world?
If he should set his heart to it
and gather to himself his spirit and his breath,
all flesh would perish together,
and man would return to dust.

“If you have understanding, hear this;
listen to what I say.
Shall one who hates justice govern?

Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty,
who says to a king, ‘Worthless one,’
and to nobles, ‘Wicked man,’
who shows no partiality to princes,
nor regards the rich more than the poor,
for they are all the work of his hands?

In a moment they die;
at midnight the people are shaken and pass away,
and the mighty are taken away by no human hand.
“For his eyes are on the ways of a man,
and he sees all his steps.

There is no gloom or deep darkness
where evildoers may hide themselves.
For God has no need to consider a man further,
that he should go before God in judgment.

He shatters the mighty without investigation
and sets others in their place.
Thus, knowing their works,
he overturns them in the night, and they are crushed.

He strikes them for their wickedness
in a place for all to see,
because they turned aside from following him
and had no regard for any of his ways,
so that they caused the cry of the poor to come to him,
and he heard the cry of the afflicted—

When he is quiet, who can condemn?
When he hides his face, who can behold him,
whether it be a nation or a man?—
that a godless man should not reign,
that he should not ensnare the people.

“For has anyone said to God,
‘I have borne punishment; I will not offend any more;
teach me what I do not see;
if I have done iniquity, I will do it no more’?
Will he then make repayment to suit you,
because you reject it?

For you must choose, and not I;
therefore declare what you know.
Men of understanding will say to me,
and the wise man who hears me will say:
‘Job speaks without knowledge;
his words are without insight.’

Would that Job were tried to the end,
because he answers like wicked men.
For he adds rebellion to his sin;
he claps his hands among us
and multiplies his words against God.”

And Elihu answered and said:

“Do you think this to be just?
Do you say, ‘It is my right before God,’
that you ask, ‘What advantage have I?
How am I better off than if I had sinned?’

I will answer you
and your friends with you.
Look at the heavens, and see;
and behold the clouds, which are higher than you.

If you have sinned, what do you accomplish against him?
And if your transgressions are multiplied, what do you do to him?

If you are righteous, what do you give to him?
Or what does he receive from your hand?

Your wickedness concerns a man like yourself,
and your righteousness a son of man.
“Because of the multitude of oppressions people cry out;
they call for help because of the arm of the mighty.

But none says, ‘Where is God my Maker,
who gives songs in the night,
who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth
and makes us wiser than the birds of the heavens?’

There they cry out, but he does not answer,
because of the pride of evil men.
Surely God does not hear an empty cry,
nor does the Almighty regard it.

How much less when you say that you do not see him,
that the case is before him, and you are waiting for him!
And now, because his anger does not punish,
and he does not take much note of transgression,
Job opens his mouth in empty talk;
he multiplies words without knowledge.”


And Elihu continued, and said:

“Bear with me a little, and I will show you,
for I have yet something to say on God's behalf.

I will get my knowledge from afar
and ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

For truly my words are not false;
one who is perfect in knowledge is with you.

“Behold, God is mighty, and does not despise any;
he is mighty in strength of understanding.
He does not keep the wicked alive,
but gives the afflicted their right.

He does not withdraw his eyes from the righteous,
but with kings on the throne
he sets them forever, and they are exalted.

And if they are bound in chains
and caught in the cords of affliction,
then he declares to them their work
and their transgressions, that they are behaving arrogantly.

He opens their ears to instruction
and commands that they return from iniquity.
If they listen and serve him,
they complete their days in prosperity,
and their years in pleasantness.

But if they do not listen, they perish by the sword
and die without knowledge.

“The godless in heart cherish anger;
they do not cry for help when he binds them.
They die in youth,
and their life ends among the cult prostitutes.

He delivers the afflicted by their affliction
and opens their ear by adversity.
He also allured you out of distress
into a broad place where there was no cramping,
and what was set on your table was full of fatness.

“But you are full of the judgment on the wicked;
judgment and justice seize you.
Beware lest wrath entice you into scoffing,
and let not the greatness of the ransom turn you aside.

Will your cry for help avail to keep you from distress,
or all the force of your strength?
Do not long for the night,
when peoples vanish in their place.

Take care; do not turn to iniquity,
for this you have chosen rather than affliction.

Behold, God is exalted in his power;
who is a teacher like him?
Who has prescribed for him his way,
or who can say, ‘You have done wrong’?

“Remember to extol his work,
of which men have sung.
All mankind has looked on it;
man beholds it from afar.

Behold, God is great, and we know him not;
the number of his years is unsearchable.
For he draws up the drops of water;
they distill his mist in rain,
which the skies pour down
and drop on mankind abundantly.

Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds,
the thunderings of his pavilion?
Behold, he scatters his lightning about him
and covers the roots of the sea.

For by these he judges peoples;
he gives food in abundance.
He covers his hands with the lightning
and commands it to strike the mark.
Its crashing declares his presence;
the cattle also declare that he rises.

 

[Nathan]

JLB beat me to it, but Romans is the book that describes all there is to know about God's justice and holiness that keeps Him from sending sinners to hell - just because He can.

Point is. He cannot send sinners to hell just because He wants. It would not be just to do so, and because He is just - He cannot. It is not because I think it is unjust, but because He says it is unjust.

His justice requires Him to judge a person - it is not something we make Him do anymore than it is something we can withhold Him from doing.

 

[Nathan]

Job 37

“At this also my heart trembles
and leaps out of its place.
Keep listening to the thunder of his voice
and the rumbling that comes from his mouth.
Under the whole heaven he lets it go,
and his lightning to the corners of the earth.

After it his voice roars;
he thunders with his majestic voice,
and he does not restrain the lightnings when his voice is heard.
God thunders wondrously with his voice;
he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

For to the snow he says, ‘Fall on the earth,’
likewise to the downpour, his mighty downpour.
He seals up the hand of every man,
that all men whom he made may know it.

Then the beasts go into their lairs,
and remain in their dens.
From its chamber comes the whirlwind,
and cold from the scattering winds.

By the breath of God ice is given,
and the broad waters are frozen fast.
He loads the thick cloud with moisture;
the clouds scatter his lightning.

They turn around and around by his guidance,
to accomplish all that he commands them
on the face of the habitable world.
Whether for correction or for his land
or for love, he causes it to happen.

“Hear this, O Job;
stop and consider the wondrous works of God.
Do you know how God lays his command upon them
and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine?

Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,
you whose garments are hot
when the earth is still because of the south wind?

Can you, like him, spread out the skies,
hard as a cast metal mirror?

Teach us what we shall say to him;
we cannot draw up our case because of darkness.

Shall it be told him that I would speak?
Did a man ever wish that he would be swallowed up?

“And now no one looks on the light
when it is bright in the skies,
when the wind has passed and cleared them.

Out of the north comes golden splendor;
God is clothed with awesome majesty.

The Almighty—we cannot find him;
he is great in power;
justice and abundant righteousness he will not violate.

Therefore men fear him;
he does not regard any who are wise in their own conceit.”

Paul is very clear in the first chapter of Romans that every man, throughout history, has had the witness of God shown to them - in order that they may be without accusation. God does this so that even those who have not heard of the Gospel, who do not know the law, will have no excuse for being 'unjustly' judged by God.

If God, wanted to - or even had a thought of - condemning some to hell just because He could - He would not make all mankind know of His presence.

Besides this, the Bible is explicitly clear that He is not a respecter of persons - elect or not - Jew or Gentile - believer or unbeliever.

Being as such, His holiness separates Himself from doing injustice.

 

[JLB]

JLB, you are one of the few, if not the first I have met(there may have been others, but my memory is not good), that understands believers are not sinners.

I once got into a long discussion with a good friend when I had realized I am not a sinner but a saint. It was interesting because he got quite upset over it.

I have thought before, even though it might do more harm than good(so I chose not to do it), that I would have a T shirt made that says "I'm not a sinner" on the front and "ask me why" on the back.

I was younger then, and found freedom in this fact, but realized to play on words might not be the best testimony - even if it is truth.

We are all desperate for His grace, whether we realize it or not.

The Lord is merciful and gracious to all who humble themselves and repent, turning to Him with all of their heart, and are considered as sons of God, by believing in Jesus Christ.


The writer of Hebrews draws this distinction between sinners and sons.


3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Hebrews 12:3-8

A study of the prodigal son, reveals principles of how God graciously deals with us as sons when when have gone astray.

It was because the wayward son returned to the father in humility, that he was restored, however the language and terms used in this teaching, and the preceding parables, show us how a person can indeed become "lost", dead to God, becoming again as a sinner in need of repentance.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

• Lost = Dead to God: as a sinner without God; separated from God.

• Found = Reconciled back to God; with God in relationship; Joined to God

The parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son, all teach us this same truth.


6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:6-7

• The lost sheep, had "lost" his "justified status", and had became as sinner; a person separated from God.

9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Luke 15:9-10

• Likewise with the lost coin.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32

• And the prodigal son.

JLB

 

[Nathan]

Proverbs 8:35-36

For whoever finds me finds life

and obtains favor from the LORD,

but he who fails to find me injures himself;

all who hate me love death.”

It is not God who who chooses some and not others, it is man who chooses God or not. We must be brought near to Him first, but when we are - whatever means He chooses to make Himself known - we must choose Him or not. If we choose Him we choose life, if we don't choose Him we choose death. We, not God, condemn ourselves to hell.

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 8:35-36

For whoever finds me finds life

and obtains favor from the LORD,

but he who fails to find me injures himself;

all who hate me love death.”

It is not God who who chooses some and not others, it is man who chooses God or not. We must be brought near to Him first, but when we are - whatever means He chooses to make Himself known - we must choose Him or not. If we choose Him we choose life, if we don't choose Him we choose death. We, not God, condemn ourselves to hell.

Yes sir. I love proverbs, especially Chapter 8.

The Lord says it this way, through the prophet Hosea:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children. Hosea 4:6


The very thing we are instructed to do by the Holy Spirit, through Peter, to be fruitful in the knowledge of Christ.


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9

add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control....

• Virtue = moral purity; moral excellence

...you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

• This means the knowledge from of Lord Jesus, and not so much as knowledge about our Lord Jesus.

JLB

 

[Nathan]

Proverbs 21:1-7


The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;

he turns it wherever he will.

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,

but the LORD aweighs the heart.

To do righteousness and justice

is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Haughty eyes and a proud heart,

the lamp of the wicked, are sin.

The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance,

but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

The getting of treasures by a lying tongue

is a fleeting vapor and a snare of death.

The violence of the wicked will sweep them away,

because they refuse to do what is just.

I personally have yet to find one passage that tells of God's choice to send sinners to hell without allowing them a choice to come to Him.

Is there one? Just one?

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 21:1-7


The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;

he turns it wherever he will.

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,

but the LORD aweighs the heart.

To do righteousness and justice

is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Haughty eyes and a proud heart,

the lamp of the wicked, are sin.

The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance,

but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

The getting of treasures by a lying tongue

is a fleeting vapor and a snare of death.

The violence of the wicked will sweep them away,

because they refuse to do what is just.

I personally have yet to find one passage that tells of God's choice to send sinners to hell without allowing them a choice to come to Him.

Is there one? Just one?

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19


Lucifer being an angel, is a son of God.

However, because of the iniquity found in his heart, he was cast out of heaven and became Satan, the Devil, the Adversary.

Hell was not created for Lucifer and his angels, but for the Devil and his angels.


IOW, hell wasn't created until Lucifer became Satan, the Devil, the Adversary, the Enemy.


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Perhaps, but an awful lot of posts in this topic involve some sort of appeal to 'right' or 'fair' or 'just' (often preceded by "that's not") rather than any appeal to scripture stating that is what the Bible says IS TRUE.

However, since a core of the belief in 'Predestination and Election' is a "red herring", I guess I have nothing to offer here. Have fun debating the Arminian view of Calvinism.

LOL! Great post! People on the web and locally have been kinown to be exasperated when I tell them that God will jerk the knots out of our tails when we get Home and He straightens every one of us out!

 

[th1b.taylor]

The reason is God is just, so anything that contradicts Him being so must be brought up.

I have no idea of the red herring. I've heard of them before, but chose to stay away from that argument.

I do hope you'll stay long enough to help me understand why you do believe such things. It would be nice if you let me know what parts of my posts go against who God is.

I'm not aware of the Armenian theology dealing with Gods choice to not pass over some sinners. So my goal, from the beginning, is to understand why Calvin followers think such things. As I have said before, the Armenian theology seems to have its flaws as well, they just don't deal with the topic of the thread - that I know of?

Of course you, I, and a hand full of others agree that if it says it in the Bible it is true. I would give much if we could have all to believe as we do but! The comfort is that those that earnestly hold all three positions appear to fall within the pail of being Orthodox. And that being so and God being Just, I believe all three, being such a small group together will be taken in the Rapture.

 

[atpollard]

God cannot rightly judge someone who has no choice. If God confines all mankind in sin, then mankind has no choice but to sin.

Is the Adamic curse unjust? Is it right that all men die for the sin of Adam? Did we choose to be born mortal? (I speak now of physical death).
You say "God cannot rightly judge someone who has no choice", yet we are born condemned to die.

(You keep wanting to sprint ahead. I am not 'ignoring' all of your posts, I simply have no choice but to pick and choose points from your walls of text because I have neither the time nor inclination to address a dozen questions at once. The questions I choose to respond to are intended to point you towards the heart of your misunderstanding of Reformed Theology. You will have to find it on your own.)

 

[th1b.taylor]

My question was: Can a believer return to being a sinner?

You answered my question, with the understanding that the question you were answering is: Can a believer return to being a sinner?


A believer: someone who believes in Jesus Christ. A brother in Christ.


Obviously, that is what you understood, since you answered the question, with a no.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Remember, that the scripture states that Jesus is separate from sinners.

A sinner is a person who is lost, separated from Christ; without God: dead to God


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

Separate - Strong's G5563 - chōrizō

to separate, divide, part, put asunder, to separate one's self from, to depart

1. 
   
   
   • to leave a husband or wife
     1. of divorce
   • to depart, go away

The way we are reconciled to God is, we are cleansed from our sins.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13


When we, like one of His sheep, become lost, having wandered from the truth, we are in need of being "turned back" just as a sinner needs to repent, and turn to God.

The Holy Spirit says, that some will listen to doctrines of demons, and in doing so they will depart from the faith: depart from the truth.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

Actually, the Believer remains a sinner until they die or are Raptured out of this mess.

 

[th1b.taylor]

A sinner is someone who practices sin.

If you put a bandage on someone, that doesn't make you a doctor.

A doctor is someone who practices medicine.



JLB

In the case of who a sinner is, no! In the case of the doctor, yes. The saved will by happenstance fall into sin. (Romans 3:10 & 23)

 

[th1b.taylor]

JLB, you are one of the few, if not the first I have met(there may have been others, but my memory is not good), that understands believers are not sinners.

I once got into a long discussion with a good friend when I had realized I am not a sinner but a saint. It was interesting because he got quite upset over it.

I have thought before, even though it might do more harm than good(so I chose not to do it), that I would have a T shirt made that says "I'm not a sinner" on the front and "ask me why" on the back.

I was younger then, and found freedom in this fact, but realized to play on words might not be the best testimony - even if it is truth.

I disagree and scripture (Rom 3:10, 23 and others) proves I should disagree, we are Saints carrying the man of flesh on our backs and we will not be rid of him before we are in the Glorified Body.

The illustration I like best comes from Roman Justice. In some states of the Roman Empire, if the Murderer of a perswon were caught before the dead body was strapped onto his back and he could only get rid of it's influence if he survived it rotting into his body, a difficult task to complete.

 

[Nathan]

Is the Adamic curse unjust? Is it right that all men die for the sin of Adam? Did we choose to be born mortal? (I speak now of physical death).
You say "God cannot rightly judge someone who has no choice", yet we are born condemned to die.

(You keep wanting to sprint ahead. I am not 'ignoring' all of your posts, I simply have no choice but to pick and choose points from your walls of text because I have neither the time nor inclination to address a dozen questions at once. The questions I choose to respond to are intended to point you towards the heart of your misunderstanding of Reformed Theology. You will have to find it on your own.)

I wasn't sprinting ahead at all. I was answering your question of Scripture that explicitly states God will not send sinners to hell just because He wants to. Or as you put it, "God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so."

Because God is just, and He has stated that He will not send humans to hell for their sins if they are in Christ, then He absolutely cannot send those people to hell. Its impossible. That would mean God lied, and we know God cannot lie.

Yes, the Adamic curse is just - not unjust. It is just that all men born from Adam also receive this 'curse'. We did not choose to be born, but we were born, therefore we have to live inside the 'lines' set forth. We are born condemned to die, but we have a choice not too. That is just. It would be unjust if we had no choice. Because we have a choice it therefore becomes just. That is why it would be unjust to say some do not have a choice.

I don't mind if you ignore my posts. I will always reply to yours. Please don't worry about addressing all my questions, I do know that when I start going into depth I ask many questions - most of which are just to myself(thinking out loud) and just meant to drive me to find answers. Feel free to address whichever questions you see that would help me understand your point of view.

 

[atpollard]

Paul is very clear in the first chapter of Romans that every man, throughout history, has had the witness of God shown to them - in order that they may be without accusation. God does this so that even those who have not heard of the Gospel, who do not know the law, will have no excuse for being 'unjustly' judged by God.

If God, wanted to - or even had a thought of - condemning some to hell just because He could - He would not make all mankind know of His presence.

Besides this, the Bible is explicitly clear that He is not a respecter of persons - elect or not - Jew or Gentile - believer or unbeliever.

Being as such, His holiness separates Himself from doing injustice.

Was God obligated to send Jesus? Did God have to deliver anyone, or could God have simply given man a moral law and condemned him when he chose to disobey it? Believe it or not, Calvinists believe in free will. We just believe that fallen man will always exercise his free will to choose evil ... just like the first three chapters of Romans make such a big deal about. That is where GRACE comes in. The problem is, many seem to be starting from a position that GOD MUST SAVE EVERYONE! From there it is only those who can sucessfully thwart the will of God that condemn themselves. If God MUST save, then it seems that "grace" isn't really "grace", is it?

That is the reason behind my questions and the purpose to my challenge to your aparent "given assumptions".
You want to talk about whether God "chooses to reject some people", but really need to start with "Does God owe anyone, salvation?"
Without that foundation, you are not discussing Reformed Theology.

 

[Nathan]

I disagree and scripture (Rom 3:10, 23 and others) proves I should disagree, we are Saints carrying the man of flesh on our backs and we will not be rid of him before we are in the Glorified Body.

The illustration I like best comes from Roman Justice. In some states of the Roman Empire, if the Murderer of a perswon were caught before the dead body was strapped onto his back and he could only get rid of it's influence if he survived it rotting into his body, a difficult task to complete.

We don't carry the man of flesh on our backs, we have to live in the flesh - just not according to it.

Let me pose a question for you - do sinners need to repent?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Is the Adamic curse unjust? Is it right that all men die for the sin of Adam? Did we choose to be born mortal? (I speak now of physical death).
You say "God cannot rightly judge someone who has no choice", yet we are born condemned to die.

(You keep wanting to sprint ahead. I am not 'ignoring' all of your posts, I simply have no choice but to pick and choose points from your walls of text because I have neither the time nor inclination to address a dozen questions at once. The questions I choose to respond to are intended to point you towards the heart of your misunderstanding of Reformed Theology. You will have to find it on your own.)

Not one of us will nor have ever died for Adam's sin, we have plenty of our own so that every one of us deserve eternity in the Lake of Fire. Rom 3:10&23)

 

[th1b.taylor]

We don't carry the man of flesh on our backs, we have to live in the flesh - just not according to it.

Let me pose a question for you - do sinners need to repent?

Considering the metaphor I chose it would be more accurate to contend that we have to live in the rotting fles of the Dead Man, the one that was slain. I do not go there because I can find nothing in this plane of existence that people could relate to. No, the metaphor is valid because the rotting corpse would literally cause the murderer to die from the rot.