Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[JLB]

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...eeks-daniel-9-24-27.51705/page-14#post-884592
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...not-by-faith-alone.57742/page-10#post-1055739
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/is-hell-forever.55539/page-6#post-981867
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-tool-of-deception.60933/page-13#post-1117744

What's this mean?

 

[Nathan]

What's this mean?

It means sometimes two people see the same thing and think the same thing, but express it differently.

 

[Nathan]

Luke 6:32-36
32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Surely reba you do not consider yourself a sinner in the below defined manner?

Strongs #G268

"Sinner" - hamartōlos -

1. devoted to sin, a sinner
   
   1. not free from sin
      
      
   2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      
      1. all wicked men
         
         
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
         
         1. tax collectors, heathen
            

 

[JLB]

It means sometimes two people see the same thing and think the same thing, but express it differently.

Why do you and I and many people I know, agree that a saint is not the same thing as a sinner.


Why is it always those who push Calvinism and OSAS, that teach we who have repented and are saved, are still referred to as "sinners".


I personally have found that the earmark for those who teach such things, is they always must "re-define" biblical terms and meaning's in order for their doctrine to be received or considered.

Here's an example:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


The phrase that get's "re-defined" here is: throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This now get's re-defined" to mean: "removed from Christian service"

• Please read the following post and tell me what you disagree with?

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:6-10


Walking in the light, walking in the truth, walking in the Spirit, walking with God, are vital things that we must learn to practice.


These things are developed and require that we set ourselves in a course of action that is contrary to what our sinful flesh desires to do.

We are instructed in this righteous lifestyle from His word.


His word instructs us in the way of righteousness.


Here is an example:

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:1-9

• giving all diligence...

People who set themselves on a deliberate course to do these things, by God's grace and power, understand...

They understand that this is believing the Lord.

They understand that repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, is their new lifestyle.

Which is why Jesus taught us these remarkable words.


But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23

 

[reba]

What's this mean?

some times it is the plain simple words of Jesus other times we force His words to fit our theology

 

[Nathan]

Why do you and I and many people I know, agree that a saint is not the same thing as a sinner.


Why is it always those who push Calvinism and OSAS, that teach we who have repented and are saved, are still referred to as "sinners".


I personally have found that the earmark for those who teach such things, is they always must "re-define" biblical terms and meaning's in order for their doctrine to be received or considered.

Here's an example:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


The phrase that get's "re-defined" here is: throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

This now get's re-defined" to mean: "removed from Christian service"

• Please read the following post and tell me what you disagree with?

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:6-10


Walking in the light, walking in the truth, walking in the Spirit, walking with God, are vital things that we must learn to practice.


These things are developed and require that we set ourselves in a course of action that is contrary to what our sinful flesh desires to do.

We are instructed in this righteous lifestyle from His word.


His word instructs us in the way of righteousness.


Here is an example:

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:1-9

• giving all diligence...

People who set themselves on a deliberate course to do these things, by God's grace and power, understand...

They understand that this is believing the Lord.

They understand that repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, is their new lifestyle.

Which is why Jesus taught us these remarkable words.


But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:23

I think your correct in some cases. Some do have to define what a word means according to what they believe.

But I honestly try to first consider that they may just define it based on what they think and what the English dictionary says. Not foul intentions.

However, I wholeheartedly believe the NT was written in Greek for this reason. We have black and white letters to define a word. Like I did above.

 

[reba]

Why do you and I and many people I know, agree that a saint is not the same thing as a sinner.

A saint is a sinner saved by Grace.... I think we agree more then ya know..

 

[reba]

Luke 6:32-36
32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Surely reba you do not consider yourself a sinner in the below defined manner?

Strongs #G268

"Sinner" - hamartōlos -

1. 
   
   
   • devoted to sin, a sinner
     1. not free from sin
        
        
     2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
        1. all wicked men
           
           
        2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
           1. tax collectors, heathen

Many call themselves gentiles are not gentiles heathens ?

 

[reba]

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

 

[Nathan]

A saint is a sinner saved by Grace.... I think we agree more then ya know..

I think so too. JLB, myself, and some others just look further down the road in dropping the sinner part.

Like the passage in Luke. Jesus was contrasting what sinners do with what righteous(saint) people do.

When it comes to Bible study it's a must to understand the difference. We know sinners will not enter the kingdom of God. So we know that it's impossible to be a sinner in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Many call themselves gentiles are not gentiles heathens ?

Actually, Gentiles are Gentiles, heathens are heathens.

Some Gentiles are heathens.

 

[reba]

However, I wholeheartedly believe the NT was written in Greek for this reason. We have black and white letters to define a word. Like I did above.

but sinners are heathens,.,, so a Christian can not be a gentile

 

[reba]

Please dont ever think my statements or questions mean to say ' reba knows' About the only thing reba knows is that she does not know a lot... I know i am a sinner saved by Grace.. I know Christ will return.. I know the plan of Salvation was laid out from the foundations of the world.

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Sometimes i throw out questions i have had in mind for a long time.

 

[Nathan]

but sinners are heathens,.,, so a Christian can not be a gentile

Your right. It's all perspective.

From others point of view I'm not only a gentile(not a Jew), a heathen, I am also a sinner because I sin.

But from Christs view I am a child of God, an offspring of Abraham, a spiritual Israelite, a saint.

 

[Nathan]

Please dont ever think my statements or questions mean to say ' reba knows' About the only thing reba knows is that she does not know a lot... I know i am a sinner saved by Grace.. I know Christ will return.. I know the plan of Salvation was laid out from the foundations of the world.

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Sometimes i throw out questions i have had in mind for a long time.

I'm the same way. There is a lot I do know and it's honestly impossible for me to forget it or think it's false.

I think the same thing about predestination and election. From the outside looking in God chooses who He wants based off nothing we know or understand. It seems He does it just because He wants.

But if I view it from places above, where I am in Christ, the view is completely different. I see why God chose me. I see that He doesn't look at me as a sinner.

 

[Nathan]

but sinners are heathens,.,, so a Christian can not be a gentile

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[reba]

agree

 

[Nathan]

At first I was thinking, man this discussion is going down another trail, but then I read something that really made me think.

We look at predestination and election in a view from our perspective. Looking backward on it, instead of forward to it. Why not look at what the prophets foretold about it?

Amos 3:1-8
1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:
2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
3 "Do two walk together, unless they have agreed to meet?
4 Does a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey? Does a young lion cry out from his den, if he has taken nothing?
5 Does a bird fall in a snare on the earth, when there is no trap for it? Does a snare spring up from the ground, when it has taken nothing?
6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?
7 "For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.
8 The lion has roared; who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken; who can but prophesy?"

God plainly states He does nothing without revealing it to His prophets. So why not look at what He told the prophets about predestination and election?

Most of the time, if not always, we look at it from a after view. Why not view it from a before view, in the Old Testament?

 

[atpollard]

The last point (IV), in your last post, is very interesting. How can one share in the operating of the Spirit without having the Spirit? There is a lot of things said in that particular section that seem very odd.

No argument from me. A lot of the WCF is hard to follow and understand. That's what you get from listening to seminarians. It has meanings and a lot of theologians can explain where it comes from and exactly what they mean and the history of why it was added. For me, let's just start with the referenced verses and get a HINT at what they might be talking about ...

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15]
[15] Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16]
[16] Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 13:20-21But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Hebrews 6:4-5 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.

yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17]
[17] John 6:64-66 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18]
[18] Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
[19] 2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
Galatians 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


One personal observation, they seem to define the 'elected' as those who persevere to the end. The scripture verses linked to the statements you wondered about how could someone 'share in the operation of the Spirit, without having the Spirit' tended to be about some turning from the faith to apostasy.

I guess this is the Reformed answer for the 'they were never saved' in less sound byte and more serious theology terms. The elected will finish the race of faith, those who do not finish were not those elected to finish.

 

[JLB]

I guess this is the Reformed answer for the 'they were never saved' in less sound byte and more serious theology terms. The elected will finish the race of faith, those who do not finish were not those elected to finish.

So edited reba , God decided to "elect" some to finish the race, while "electing" for the others to
"fall out" of the race, then "elected" others to never be in the race?

How does this reconcile, in your mind, to the scripture, "for there is no partiality with God"?

And again

For God judges each person according to his deeds.


JLB