Predestination - OSAS

[francisdesales]

Wow, there is so much vitriol in this thread. I hesitate to keep on with it. But here goes…

I think I agree with Mondar here. I take Matthew 7 (part of the Sermon on the Mount) to be an evangelistic announcement to the “worldâ€. That is… it is not solely for the believers. So, when Jesus says what He does in verses 21-23, I take it to mean just what it says: He NEVER knew them. He is saying, in effect, “A lot of people will profess to be Christians, and will do “good†works expecting to gain access as a result. But unless I am in them, they are not invited.â€

Mondar and I have a long relationship here, I respect him. I happen to disagree with him, as well.

Saying "Lord, Lord" is an act of faith, is it not? Perhaps it is misplaced, but just the same, this person is crying out to the Lord to save them. That presumes an act of faith, which is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9).

It is not whether a person had faith or not, here, but whether that person ALSO had good deeds, acts of love, inner motivations to please God rather than man or self. Jesus is addressing the hypocrite, whose motives are NOT Godly. Thus, merely having an act of faith (Lord, Lord.. save me) is not enough. We must have faith working in love. Same thing said by James 2. Or Paul in 1 cor 13.

If Jesus is actually IN them, the works they do will actually be the “will of my Father who is in Heavenâ€, because God conforms the believer’s will to His own. Indeed, the very purpose of our salvation is to do good works under the direction of the Spirit. What’s more, the works themselves were predestined…

I don't want to get into "the works were predestined", because that can suggest the opposite, the evil was predestined, as well, and that is reprehensible to my understanding of God. Thus, that statement requires a bit of understanding so we don't fall into the pagan ideal of "fate".

God conforms the believer's will to His own, but man retains the free will to reject that conforming, and this can happen as a regenerate person. EVERY SIN is proof of that rejecting of the conforming to God's will.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

God prepares us in advance by giving us faith and sending the Spirit to us to do good works, that is why we are Christians, to do good works.

This is why “good†works done of a man’s own will are not valuable to that man. Though the world may view the man’s works as “goodâ€, they are not God’s works – they are merely the man’s works. The works which God planned in advance will be done by God (indwelling Spirit) through His instruments. – His believers, whom He has chosen.

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

Yes, the Bible says no one can say “Jesus is Lord†except by the power of the Spirit. (1COR 12:3) I take this to mean (tell me what you think) that this addresses the genuineness/efficacy of a confession of faith. To me this says, “Only under the power of the Holy Spirit can you utter a true, meaningful confession of faith.â€

I would agree with that, but would you agree that people can delude themselves in thinking they are giving a "true, meaningful confession" but are not? Can people convince themselves that they are "true disciples of Jesus", but are actually lukewarm followers, whom Jesus spews out of His mouth (Rev)?

It certianly doesn't imply that a non-believer is incapable of uttering the words...

[/quote]

Why would a non-believer call upon the Lord? A person who calls upon the Lord must by implication believe that the Lord exists, can hear the prayer, and is capable of responding. That sounds like the definition of "faith" to me, according to Hebrews... Even if it is not a living faith, it is still faith. We can call it a dead faith, how's that? A believer with a dead faith who calls upon the Lord will be in danger of not seeing the Kingdom. Is that an agreeable interpretation? I think this is Jesus' intent in Mat 7. Sounds a lot like his "brother's" teaching in James 2...

Regards

 

[mondar]

Yes, I am serious. I think what you are doing is not actually a method of exegesis. To determine of there is a figure of speech (non-literal language) within a context you do not look to truths in completely different books. I agree that you use scripture to interpret scripture, but that is not what you are doing. There are no rhetorical devices in the context of Matthew 7, that are non-literal.

Heh, yeah, bad statement by me. I obviously blew that one.

But when you look at the non-literal rhetorical devices used in Matthew 7, you dont see any difference between the mote or beam in an eye, and "I never knew you, depart from me?"

The beam in the eye is an obvious non-literal literary device. The wolf in sheeps clothing is obvious. But that is the point. The statement of Jesus "I never knew you" is fits right in with the rest of the local context of the few verses it is in.

So, how many Arminians (nothing against them, but I think YOU would consider them false teachers) appear before you wearing a sheep as clothing??? Is THIS literal, as well, Mondar????

Watchman is arminian, even accused of pelagianism by you (and maybe with good reason). Yet he sees how obvious it is that the text in question is literal. I am sure he would agree that there are many figures of speech in the Chapter.

Answer me honestly, is this a game to you? Or do you really believe that the text in question is non-literal?

Your theology demands a priori that unless a person is perfect, their original salvation is in question. Thus, one is constantly wondering whether they were REALLY saved or not, whether they were REALLY regenerate or not. Because any lukewarm behavior would mean "Christ never knew you"... Sorry, that is illogical.

My theology does demand perfection, but remember, Calvinists believe in a substutionary redemption, that the shed blood of Christ is full payment and completely sufficient for salvation. Christ is our perfection. After redemption, I am not saying the Christian life is sinless. I am saying that it will have its fruits.

I would agree that "lukewarm behavior," could mean that a person is unregenerate. This of course depends upon what is meant by the term "lukewarm behavior." I believe Christians make mistakes, they sin. Some even sin some pretty bad sins. David sinned with Bathsheeba, but when confronted by the prophet Nathan, David immediately repented. A Christian is not sinless, but the new nature will not allow us to live in sin. Neither would Christ... He would chasten those whom he loves so that fruit will be produced.

Before the Christian would so dishonor Christ by his sin that he would loose his salvation, Christ would take his life from this world.
NIV--- 1 Cor 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
Notice, those who "have fallen asleep" are not to be "condemned with the world." Salvation is once and for all, and results in a growth in personal righteousness and sanctification. If one becomes so fleshly that he would dishonor Christ, some might be chastened, some might be killed before they sin too much, but none will dishonor Christ.

Of course Calvinists believe that the power of God working in man is the source of all good. But get that from context where it is the issue.

That is not how anyone, to include you, does theology. We don't go to ANY verse with a blank slate and no knowledge of God previously attained. For theology to be consistent, we must take into account ALL that the bible says, since it comes from one source, God. Thus, when the Scriptures state that a man can do nothing good without God, over and over, OT and NT, THAT is part of the mindset we use in approaching a verse like Mat 7, or any verse. That is HOW we are able to ascertain if a verse IS speaking literally or not. We read the literal, and discount it, if reading the literal disagrees with accepted understandings elsewhere - such as "man can do nothing good without God".

If I want to read about how my new Cannondale bicycle works, I do not pull out my Ford Fusion manuel and look for the bike section. Actually, believe it or not, there is no Cannondale bike section of my Fusion manuel.

This means that when you are looking at one context, such as 1 john where it says one can call Jesus "Lord" only by the power of the HS, and the context in matthew where false prophets claimed to prophecy in his name and also call him "Lord Lord. This not the same context. Excuse me for not demonstrating this. If need, I think I could.

This is not a "Catholic-only" phenomenom. Calvinists do it, everyone does it. When YOU look at James 2, your protestant idea of sola fide forces you to REFUSE to accept the literal "one is not saved by faith alone" and take it to mean something different. If I was to truncate exegesis as you are, I would question YOUR understanding of not taking the literal!

Mondar, I've been around the block, and that is how all Christians operate. Thus, when we approach Scriptures, any Christian, part of the exegitical process is dependent upon our own religious paradigm,

While we all make the mistake of bringing our religious paradigm into interpretation, We should be measuring our religious paradigm by scripture. So then, when it falls short of scripture, we change what we believe.

I can say I have done this. Where as once I was a free will arminian, I am now a sovereign grace Calvinist. My religious paradigm did not match up with scripture.

whether it is a universal one or a denominational one. I am pretty sure that in this case, my exegesis is dependent upon a universal paradigm, accepted by nearly all Christians - that man can do no good without God. ANOTHER is that faith is a gift from God, not generated by man.

Francis, the two things you say above are a part of my religious paradigm. LOL, you definately have to pick different issues here since we are in agreement on those things.

Where we disagree is not on the paradigm you mentioned, but on reading that paradigm into a text in an unwarranted way.

And finally, proclaiming "Lord, Lord" is an act of faith. Thus, other Scriptures and their understanding refute the literal in Matt 7. In addition, we can look at the obvious literary genre...

The proclamation "Lord, Lord" is an act of faith - a gift from God. Jesus, being God, participated in that gift giving to man "x", so literally, it is not possible for Jesus to "never have known them".

So I just have to say the words "Lord Lord," and I have my ticket punched? Then I am good to go (at least for now). With such a shallow, powerless view of salvation, no wonder you think you can loose it so easily.

Other Scriptures, such as Revelation and the letter to the various saved Churches and peter's discussion of the false preachers who RETURNED to the vomit of their former lives, indicates that your paradigm that demands the literal is misplaced. In addition, you end up contradicting yourself, since blind acceptance makes you a Pelagian...

There must be some miscommunication here, I have no idea how you can make what I am saying even in the ball park of pelagianism. Please explain how you are seeing me here.

 

[HisSheep]

Saying "Lord, Lord" is an act of faith, is it not? Perhaps it is misplaced, but just the same, this person is crying out to the Lord to save them. That presumes an act of faith, which is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9).

When in Matthew 7:22 Jesus says “Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord…†I always imagine this to be taking place at the “white throne judgment†in Rev. 20. So, yes, NOW they truly believe, and want admittance, but it is too late for that. The unbeliever is trying to appeal to Jesus based upon their having been “goodâ€, but Jesus doesn’t know them – and never did. The works they are citing are not the specific works that God had planned for His chosen people to do. In other words, they were works done not for the glory of God, but for an ulterior motive. This ulterior motive may even have been a vain attempt to earn favor with the Lord.

It is not whether a person had faith or not, here, but whether that person ALSO had good deeds, acts of love, inner motivations to please God rather than man or self. Jesus is addressing the hypocrite, whose motives are NOT Godly. Thus, merely having an act of faith (Lord, Lord.. save me) is not enough. We must have faith working in love. Same thing said by James 2. Or Paul in 1 cor 13.

No way man. The truly faithful will always end up doing the works God planned for them to do, according to the measure of faith that God gives them. There is NO true faith that does not bear fruit. You imply here that a person CAN have faith that does not manifest itself as works. James’ teachings simply say that this is not faith at all.

I don't want to get into "the works were predestined", because that can suggest the opposite, the evil was predestined, as well, and that is reprehensible to my understanding of God. Thus, that statement requires a bit of understanding so we don't fall into the pagan ideal of "fate".

Fate is a type of randomness in my understanding. Believing that God has it all planned out is just good, solid Christianity. (Psalm 139) There’s nothing at all dangerous about quoting Ephesians 2:10.

God conforms the believer's will to His own, but man retains the free will to reject that conforming, and this can happen as a regenerate person. EVERY SIN is proof of that rejecting of the conforming to God's will.

This is like saying that every immature act of a child is a rejection of becoming an adult. He will glorify His people. None whom He has chosen will reject Him. Otherwise, God would not accomplish all that He intends - And we all know that He does.
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Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

God prepares us in advance by giving us faith and sending the Spirit to us to do good works, that is why we are Christians, to do good works.

This verse doesn’t say that He prepares us in advance… It says He created us to do predetermined works.

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

I don’t differentiate… Jesus does… I don't need to know.

…would you agree that people can delude themselves in thinking they are giving a "true, meaningful confession" but are not? Can people convince themselves that they are "true disciples of Jesus", but are actually lukewarm followers, whom Jesus spews out of His mouth (Rev)?

Yes, of course. Those are some of the very people he refers to in Mat 7:21-23. Perhaps they feel family or social pressure to “join-up†or to “get-savedâ€. But the truth is, no man can influence the Spirit to go where it doesn’t plan to go. You can eat little round wafers all day long… You can pour water over a baby all day long… if God doesn’t reveal Himself to that person, then that’s it, they can not believe… …they will be unable to believe.

It certianly doesn't imply that a non-believer is incapable of uttering the words...

Why would a non-believer call upon the Lord? A person who calls upon the Lord must by implication believe that the Lord exists, can hear the prayer, and is capable of responding. That sounds like the definition of "faith" to me, according to Hebrews... Even if it is not a living faith, it is still faith. We can call it a dead faith, how's that? A believer with a dead faith who calls upon the Lord will be in danger of not seeing the Kingdom. Is that an agreeable interpretation? I think this is Jesus' intent in Mat 7. Sounds a lot like his "brother's" teaching in James 2...

As I said above, there are a number of reasons why a person might “go through the motionsâ€, yet not have a saving faith. One of these reasons is the very mechanics of the “church†itself. By merely uttering the words, they are not really calling on the Lord. This is why we are told we must “believe in our hearts and confess with our lips.†Just confessing isn’t enough. And how does one believe in ones heart (rather than mind)? Tell me what you think, but I think it requires an act of God. This is true of lots of things in Christianity. Is Eucharist effective to the non-believer? Is baptism effective to the non-believer? Likewise, you could recite a creed in church every Sunday and not believe it (in your heart) one whit. It is exactly this “follow the dogma†Christianity that drove the poor buggers referred to in Matt 7:21-23 to do their good works in the first place.

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

Mondar,

Could you please edit your last post immediately preceding this one? I think a "/quote" got dropped somewhere and it is difficult to follow it.

thanks

 

[Drew]

.Free will does have validity. It is instrumental in our period of sanctification. But prior to this point, our will is all bad. There is a biblical outline of the “world-to-heaven†trajectory. Paul makes it clear in his letter to the Romans that the pattern works like this:

1.) Justification. The hour we first believed; we are granted faith by God. Salvation happens here; and it is unearned. We can not affect this at all. We play no role in it whatsoever. The Holy Spirit takes up residence within a believer at this point (baptism by the Spirit). He does not leave after having done so.

But Paul also uses the term "justification" in a future tense. So, unless we want to bend what Paul actually writes, I do not see how "justification" can be understood as solely wrapped up in the the point in time at which a person believes:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

 

[francisdesales]

When in Matthew 7:22 Jesus says “Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord…†I always imagine this to be taking place at the “white throne judgment†in Rev. 20. So, yes, NOW they truly believe, and want admittance, but it is too late for that. The unbeliever is trying to appeal to Jesus based upon their having been “goodâ€, but Jesus doesn’t know them – and never did.

Ok. Perhaps. "That day" COULD imply that, although it need not, since the useage of that word by the prophets does not mean the end of the world and final judgment, but rather, when God acts in the world. In the Gospels, the "kingdom of heaven" is usually accorded to the here and now.

The works they are citing are not the specific works that God had planned for His chosen people to do. In other words, they were works done not for the glory of God, but for an ulterior motive. This ulterior motive may even have been a vain attempt to earn favor with the Lord.

True, and I have stated this. I believe it is THIS reason, the ulterior motive, not that "Jesus never knew them" a. la. never were saved to begin with.

But it is not the works that are the problem, since casting out demons is not an inherently evil act!!! The problem is the faith lacks the love. This agrees with the witness of the rest of Scriptures - that doing works of the law is not enough, if there is no inner love or motive.

It is not whether a person had faith or not, here, but whether that person ALSO had good deeds, acts of love, inner motivations to please God rather than man or self. Jesus is addressing the hypocrite, whose motives are NOT Godly. Thus, merely having an act of faith (Lord, Lord.. save me) is not enough. We must have faith working in love. Same thing said by James 2. Or Paul in 1 cor 13.

No way man. The truly faithful will always end up doing the works God planned for them to do, according to the measure of faith that God gives them. There is NO true faith that does not bear fruit. You imply here that a person CAN have faith that does not manifest itself as works. James’ teachings simply say that this is not faith at all.

Way.

John says he who is without sin is a liar. Thus, even the truly faithful will occasionally falter and NOT do the Will of the Father. James does NOT call the lackluster Christians "faithless". He says they have FAITH, and it is DEAD. As I told Mondar, the term "faith" uses the qualifier (dead or alive) because faith by itself does NOT describe whether it is salvific or not - since faith alone cannot save. It must be a living faith that saves...

Fate is a type of randomness in my understanding.

That is not what fate is...

God conforms the believer's will to His own, but man retains the free will to reject that conforming, and this can happen as a regenerate person. EVERY SIN is proof of that rejecting of the conforming to God's will.

This is like saying that every immature act of a child is a rejection of becoming an adult.

Hardly. The act of moving from being a child to an adult is NOT one of free will... It is inexorible. The act of becoming a glorified Christian is NOT automatic, since the bible clearly states otherwise. It is conditional, dependent upon our cooperation with freely given grace. A saved Christian who becomes a murderer will not enter Heaven.

He will glorify His people. None whom He has chosen will reject Him.

The problem is two. First, you don't know who is chosen for eternal heaven, since it is conditional. Second, God is eternal and so those "chosen" are those "glorified" because it is part of the instantaneous "NOW" of eternity. There is no "choose" and then "wait" and then "glory", as if God must ensure that we remain on path. That's human chronology, not applicable to God.

Otherwise, God would not accomplish all that He intends - And we all know that He does.

All that God intends to accomplish is not made known to us.

God prepares us in advance by giving us faith and sending the Spirit to us to do good works, that is why we are Christians, to do good works.

This verse doesn’t say that He prepares us in advance… It says He created us to do predetermined works.

Could you explain the difference?

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

I don’t differentiate… Jesus does… I don't need to know.

Ah, but you claim to know that someone else's work is "man's good work" and they were never saved to begin with????

…would you agree that people can delude themselves in thinking they are giving a "true, meaningful confession" but are not? Can people convince themselves that they are "true disciples of Jesus", but are actually lukewarm followers, whom Jesus spews out of His mouth (Rev)?

Yes, of course. Those are some of the very people he refers to in Mat 7:21-23. Perhaps they feel family or social pressure to “join-up†or to “get-savedâ€. But the truth is, no man can influence the Spirit to go where it doesn’t plan to go.

And that includes Calvinists who universally all claim to be preserved by God... :gah

Why would a non-believer call upon the Lord? A person who calls upon the Lord must by implication believe that the Lord exists, can hear the prayer, and is capable of responding. That sounds like the definition of "faith" to me, according to Hebrews... Even if it is not a living faith, it is still faith. We can call it a dead faith, how's that? A believer with a dead faith who calls upon the Lord will be in danger of not seeing the Kingdom. Is that an agreeable interpretation? I think this is Jesus' intent in Mat 7. Sounds a lot like his "brother's" teaching in James 2...

As I said above, there are a number of reasons why a person might “go through the motionsâ€, yet not have a saving faith.

Again, we aren't talking about saving faith, but whether there was ANY faith.

The person in question must have NEVER had faith, EVER, not that, today, they are going through the motions...

Are you about to suggest that if a person is lukewarm today, they must have ALWAYS been lukewarm, and their initial acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior was all fake in their minds at the moment????

Your denomination requires that if anyone reverts to sin, they must not have EVER had been regenerated. ALL good deeds, previously thought to have been inspired by God's Spirit, are now automatically shuffled and filed into the "didn't count" drawer, and Jesus suddenly forgot that HE (since God alone inspires good acts within us) inspired those very acts in the "didn't count" drawer...

One of these reasons is the very mechanics of the “church†itself. By merely uttering the words, they are not really calling on the Lord.

What are you talking about???

This is why we are told we must “believe in our hearts and confess with our lips.â€

Again, a person can THINK they believe in their hearts that they are saved... THIS is called "FAITH", is it not? we are not talking about the value of that faith, living or dead.

Just confessing isn’t enough.

And thus, faith alone doesn't save...

And how does one believe in ones heart (rather than mind)? Tell me what you think, but I think it requires an act of God. This is true of lots of things in Christianity. Is Eucharist effective to the non-believer? Is baptism effective to the non-believer? Likewise, you could recite a creed in church every Sunday and not believe it (in your heart) one whit. It is exactly this “follow the dogma†Christianity that drove the poor buggers referred to in Matt 7:21-23 to do their good works in the first place.

No doubt, there are many people who have faith but it is a dead faith. The Bible is full of such people, and all denominations have them. Jesus is refering to them in Matt 7. Not that they were never saved or never had faith, but that the "Lord, Lord" act of faith was not enough, since it was dead faith.

Dead faith does not save.

Regards

 

[Drew]

God conforms the believer's will to His own, but man retains the free will to reject that conforming, and this can happen as a regenerate person.

I agree. I see no way of avoiding this conclusion in light of this teaching from Romans 8:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,....

 

[HisSheep]

Man, this got so long and complicated that I lost track of the quote things... I don't know. I think it tracks alright. Sorry if I strayed from convention:

When in Matthew 7:22 Jesus says “Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord…†I always imagine this to be taking place at the “white throne judgment†in Rev. 20. So, yes, NOW they truly believe, and want admittance, but it is too late for that. The unbeliever is trying to appeal to Jesus based upon their having been “goodâ€, but Jesus doesn’t know them – and never did.

Ok. Perhaps. "That day" COULD imply that, although it need not, since the useage of that word by the prophets does not mean the end of the world and final judgment, but rather, when God acts in the world. In the Gospels, the "kingdom of heaven" is usually accorded to the here and now.

But Jesus DOES seem to be passing judgment in the scene He presents…

The works they are citing are not the specific works that God had planned for His chosen people to do. In other words, they were works done not for the glory of God, but for an ulterior motive. This ulterior motive may even have been a vain attempt to earn favor with the Lord.

True, and I have stated this. I believe it is THIS reason, the ulterior motive, not that "Jesus never knew them" a. la. never were saved to begin with.

Jesus doesn’t give up on His sheep… He is patient, wanting none of them to perish. You are trying to convince folks that apostasy can occur in those who at one time had TRUE faith. Scripture doesn’t bear it out.

Again, Ephesians 1:13 and 14, just 13 and 14 this time…

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

And John 10:

28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Why do folks want to believe that Satan can circumvent God’s will?
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John says he who is without sin is a liar. Thus, even the truly faithful will occasionally falter and NOT do the Will of the Father. James does NOT call the lackluster Christians "faithless". He says they have FAITH, and it is DEAD. As I told Mondar, the term "faith" uses the qualifier (dead or alive) because faith by itself does NOT describe whether it is salvific or not - since faith alone cannot save. It must be a living faith that saves...

I never said that Christians always behave in a manner that pleases God. Of course they continue to sin (more than occasionally), though God sees them as sinless because of the constant mediation of Christ. James is urging the faithful to act on their faith. No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel basket…

Here’s what Wesley had to say about James 2:20. I agree with him:

But art than willing to know - Indeed thou art not: thou wouldest fain be ignorant of it. O empty man - Empty of all goodness. That the faith which is without works is dead - And so is not properly faith, as a dead carcase is not a man.
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The act of moving from being a child to an adult is NOT one of free will... It is inexorible. The act of becoming a glorified Christian is NOT automatic, since the bible clearly states otherwise. It is conditional, dependent upon our cooperation with freely given grace. A saved Christian who becomes a murderer will not enter Heaven.

Does the blood of Jesus cover future sins? Is it not thick enough to cover a murder? What if he repents? What if a saved man is compelled to look at a woman lustfully… just as a piano falls on his head? Does not God perceive that sin to be enough to warrant damnation? Has the man not transgressed of the entire law? You see? It IS inexorable that a justified man ends up glorified. Don’t underestimate the power of the cross. Now, we’re back to Romans 8, right where Mike started this whole thing:

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice how Paul talks as if it’s already all done. – All of it is in the past tense! You know why? Because it IS already done.

The problem is two. First, you don't know who is chosen for eternal heaven, since it is conditional. Second, God is eternal and so those "chosen" are those "glorified" because it is part of the instantaneous "NOW" of eternity. There is no "choose" and then "wait" and then "glory", as if God must ensure that we remain on path. That's human chronology, not applicable to God.

Right, I don’t know who is chosen, and never said I did. That is not because it is undetermined (conditional) though, because it’s not… It is only because God has yet to reveal it. God already knows. He will reveal His sons soon enough. Life is not a process through which God is determining who His sheep are. It is a process by which He is revealing His sheep:

1John 3:
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

And:

Romans 8
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

All that God intends to accomplish is not made known to us.

Exactly right, the point is, He knows. He is not waiting on the edge of His seat to see who will “pass the testâ€. God purposes everything.
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Regarding Ephesians 2:10
for we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

God prepares us in advance by giving us faith and sending the Spirit to us to do good works, that is why we are Christians, to do good works.

This verse doesn’t say that He prepares us in advance… It says He created us to do predetermined works.[/quote]

Could you explain the difference?

I’ll try. This verse says that the works themselves were predestined to be done. He created us in Christ (made us believers) in order to do the predetermined works. There are certain specific works God has predetermined for us to do. In other words, God has a plan for your life. There are lots of passages that describe the predestination of salvation, but this isn’t one of them. It ties in here though. The point I’m trying to make by citing it is that God isn’t all about saving men. Rather, He is all about glorifying Himself through His chosen instruments.

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

I don’t differentiate… Jesus does… I don't need to know.

Ah, but you claim to know that someone else's work is "man's good work" and they were never saved to begin with????

No, again, only God knows mans motive. He sees into the hearts of men.

…would you agree that people can delude themselves in thinking they are giving a "true, meaningful confession" but are not? Can people convince themselves that they are "true disciples of Jesus", but are actually lukewarm followers, whom Jesus spews out of His mouth (Rev)?

Yes, of course. Those are some of the very people he refers to in Mat 7:21-23. Perhaps they feel family or social pressure to “join-up†or to “get-savedâ€. But the truth is, no man can influence the Spirit to go where He doesn’t plan to go. [/quote]

And that includes Calvinists who universally all claim to be preserved by God... :gah

Yes.

Why would a non-believer call upon the Lord? A person who calls upon the Lord must by implication believe that the Lord exists, can hear the prayer, and is capable of responding. That sounds like the definition of "faith" to me, according to Hebrews... Even if it is not a living faith, it is still faith. We can call it a dead faith, how's that? A believer with a dead faith who calls upon the Lord will be in danger of not seeing the Kingdom. Is that an agreeable interpretation? I think this is Jesus' intent in Mat 7. Sounds a lot like his "brother's" teaching in James 2...

Well, I think that it is possible that James is trying to motivate the lukewarm to test their faith with works. I am an adult convert from atheism. There was a time when I was saved, but had yet to put my faith into action. James’ teaching compelled me to put my faith into action.

The Matthew 7 “Lord, Lord†thing, as I’ve said, sounds to me like a vain attempt to rationalize with Jesus at the white throne judgment, just before the “second deathâ€. You can’t blame the guy for trying.

Are you about to suggest that if a person is lukewarm today, they must have ALWAYS been lukewarm, and their initial acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior was all fake in their minds at the moment????

No... What…? What does this question mean? Are you asking if I think our faith is static for the duration of our lives?

Your denomination requires that if anyone reverts to sin, they must not have EVER had been regenerated. ALL good deeds, previously thought to have been inspired by God's Spirit, are now automatically shuffled and filed into the "didn't count" drawer, and Jesus suddenly forgot that HE (since God alone inspires good acts within us) inspired those very acts in the "didn't count" drawer...

My denomination is best described as Baptist, but I’m not a member. I just like to call myself a Christian. I believe that all things work to God’s benefit, whether they are done by Him, through His instruments, or not. Even Satan is playing right into God’s hand. With respect to God’s purpose, our works have no effect.

Deeds are referred to for the judgment that will determine placement in the millennial Kingdom and also for the white throne judgment. All those to serve in the millennial Kingdom will not be judged at the white throne judgment. Those folks will not enter into judgment; they have passed from death to life. That’s what Jesus said. Instead, all those at the white throne judgment will be found lacking, and will not have Christ to cover the difference. They are not justified.

One of these reasons is the very mechanics of the “church†itself. By merely uttering the words, they are not really calling on the Lord.

What are you talking about???

Sometimes, a church can deceive people with its incantations, recitations, rituals, etc. to the exclusion of the real thing (Acts 2 style). A person can be led to believe (and they often are) that they are right with God because they are right with the church. By simply reciting the Nicene Creed for example, one isn’t necessarily uttering a “confession of faith†because they must also “believe in their heartâ€. No prayer book or missal can put real faith into you, just as no water baptism can save you. Only a baptism by the Spirit does that, and we can’t control Him.

This is why we are told we must “believe in our hearts and confess with our lips.â€

Again, a person can THINK they believe in their hearts that they are saved... THIS is called "FAITH", is it not? we are not talking about the value of that faith, living or dead.

“Ye must be born again.†Jesus of Nazareth, circa 32

Dead faith does not save.

…And is therefore no faith at all.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

God conforms the believer's will to His own, but man retains the free will to reject that conforming, and this can happen as a regenerate person.

I agree. I see no way of avoiding this conclusion in light of this teaching from Romans 8:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,....

Goodness, Drew. How is my eternal destiny in my own hands if I am "controlled by the Spirit"? (verse 9).

While it is true that if we live according to the sinful nature we will die, plenty of other scripture tells us that the Spirit effectively helps us in our perseverance and makes it certain that we will triumph over the sinful nature.

Once again, Ephesians 1:13 and 14

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

And

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

God intends to shephard us to the promised land. We will keep His statutes because of the Spirit He put within us.

Ezekiel 36
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

-HisSheep

 

[Drew]

Goodness, Drew. How is my eternal destiny in my own hands if I am "controlled by the Spirit"? (verse 9).

It was Paul, not me, who writes these words:

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,....

I do not see how this text can possibly be read without acknowledging that we indeed have an obligation. And an obligation, by the very meaning of the term, implies that there is indeed something that we need to do in order to, yes, live. And from context, it is clear that eternal life is in view here.

While it is true that if we live according to the sinful nature we will die, plenty of other scripture tells us that the Spirit effectively helps us in our perseverance and makes it certain that we will triumph over the sinful nature.

While I am 90 % with you here, I have to take Romans 8:12-13 as it reads. With all due respect, and I am not accusing you of this, people will often bend the clear sense that this text to avoid the clear connection between our attaining eternal life and our fulfilling of an obligation.

Now if you, or others, can make the case that the word "obligation" is a mis-translation from the original Greek, fine. But unless that can be done, the sense of this material is clear - there is an element our "doing something" that is connected to our getting eternal life.

I happen to believe that our "obligation" basically consists in "surrendering our will to the Spirit". So I suspect that we may not be that far apart - I do believe, as many of my posts in other threads clearly attest, that it is substantially the Spirit that accomplishes the transformation that leads to eternal life.

 

[HisSheep]

I happen to believe that our "obligation" basically consists in "surrendering our will to the Spirit". So I suspect that we may not be that far apart - I do believe, as many of my posts in other threads clearly attest, that it is substantially the Spirit that accomplishes the transformation that leads to eternal life.

Alright! Drew and I have found common ground! :amen

Yes! You probably just word things a bit more diplomatically than I. In keeping with this specific point we’ve agreed on, I would like to add Romans 6:

17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

We are slaves to righteousness. I think that’s the point. Though the works are required, they are also inevitable. This is why I also love to mention Ezekiel 36

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

I thank God that He has done this for me. Where would I be otherwise?

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus doesn’t give up on His sheep… He is patient, wanting none of them to perish. You are trying to convince folks that apostasy can occur in those who at one time had TRUE faith. Scripture doesn’t bear it out.

Do you think God gave up on the Israelites as they journeyed to the Promised Land? Now, I would like to divert your attention to 1 Cor 10:1-11. Please note that Paul is using typology that clearly is a lesson to those who think that God will not EVENTUALLY rain down punishment and wrath upon disobedient Christians who think they cannot fall...

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

And John 10:

28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Saul was sealed with the Spirit, also. Being snatched BY SOMEONE else gives us security that ANOTHER being cannot come between God and the COMMUNITY. The "them" is the entire community. Individuals can and do fall away by their own volition.

Why do folks want to believe that Satan can circumvent God’s will?

God's will is that man have free will. God desires that we love Him as He loves us. Some choose not to .

I never said that Christians always behave in a manner that pleases God. Of course they continue to sin (more than occasionally), though God sees them as sinless because of the constant mediation of Christ. James is urging the faithful to act on their faith. No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel basket…

I bring this up because I am being told that if someone sins, such as the charecters in James 2, they must not have ever been saved. Doesn't this logically lead us to conclude that if a person sins, that they must then WONDER whether their own salvation actually took place and "Jesus never knew me"???

I have a great respect for John Wesley and I don't think he was teaching Calvinism! Interestingly, he was often accused of having Catholic tendencies on these matters.

Does the blood of Jesus cover future sins? Is it not thick enough to cover a murder? What if he repents? What if a saved man is compelled to look at a woman lustfully… just as a piano falls on his head?

Yes, presuming that the person repents of that future sin. The utilization of Jesus' blood is dependent upon a man's repentance of a sin. Thus, all men are not going to heaven - unless the man repents.

As to the hypothetical, I think God is going to take more into account when He judges a person for heaven or hell.

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice how Paul talks as if it’s already all done. – All of it is in the past tense! You know why? Because it IS already done.

Again, WE don't know WHO God foreknows to everlasting glory. Note, Scriptures speak of conditional salvation and some who initially call upon the Lord are NOT foreknown.

Right, I don’t know who is chosen, and never said I did. That is not because it is undetermined (conditional) though, because it’s not… It is only because God has yet to reveal it. God already knows. He will reveal His sons soon enough. Life is not a process through which God is determining who His sheep are. It is a process by which He is revealing His sheep:

See, God sees past and future as one moment. One NOW. When the Scriptures are taking "God's point of view", yes, it's "done" or "being done", more accurately. But remember, God sees all time in one moment, He doesn't have our time chronology. So I agree, for God, our life is not a "process".

This verse (Eph 2:10) doesn’t say that He prepares us in advance… It says He created us to do predetermined works.

Could you explain the difference?

I’ll try. This verse says that the works themselves were predestined to be done. He created us in Christ (made us believers) in order to do the predetermined works. There are certain specific works God has predetermined for us to do. In other words, God has a plan for your life. There are lots of passages that describe the predestination of salvation, but this isn’t one of them. It ties in here though. The point I’m trying to make by citing it is that God isn’t all about saving men. Rather, He is all about glorifying Himself through His chosen instruments.

So God is not preparing us, transforming us to do good works of love??? We are just puppets that do nothing but passively watch as God does something through us??? I'm thinking I cannot agree with this, if that is what you mean...

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

I don’t differentiate… Jesus does… I don't need to know.

So why is it so many are judging whether someone is unregenerate or not? why am I being told that the men in James 2 or Mat 7 are not regenerate? We are hardly given any information about that person's call from God, their reaction upon first coming to Him, etc. Yet, the person was unregenerate because of a momentary act of or action of lackluster or dead faith?

I think that it is possible that James is trying to motivate the lukewarm to test their faith with works. I am an adult convert from atheism. There was a time when I was saved, but had yet to put my faith into action. James’ teaching compelled me to put my faith into action.

Now you are talking!!! Thus, there is a moment of faith without works, and it is not salvific. It is only when you put your faith into action...

The Matthew 7 “Lord, Lord†thing, as I’ve said, sounds to me like a vain attempt to rationalize with Jesus at the white throne judgment, just before the “second deathâ€. You can’t blame the guy for trying.

I'm not convinced that this was what Jesus had in mind, since the context doesn't suggest a moment at the "white throne" - He rarely speaks like that. However, entrance into the Kingdom, which is here on earth, yes, I think that is what He meant. One is not in the Kingdom merely because they say it (faith alone). The writing to the Christian audience was not meant as a warning to people standing before Christ that "it won't do you any good". The message is to the living to change NOW, enter the Kingdom!

Are you about to suggest that if a person is lukewarm today, they must have ALWAYS been lukewarm, and their initial acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior was all fake in their minds at the moment????

No... What…? What does this question mean? Are you asking if I think our faith is static for the duration of our lives?

It appears from my discussion on this subject with two Calvinists is that a person is "known by their fruits" as being saved/regenerate, and that this fruit must constantly be shown. Thus, a person who suffers a setback in their walk, perhaps like the people in James, is proof that they were never saved.

My denomination is best described as Baptist, but I’m not a member. I just like to call myself a Christian. I believe that all things work to God’s benefit, whether they are done by Him, through His instruments, or not. Even Satan is playing right into God’s hand. With respect to God’s purpose, our works have no effect.

As long as God's will is being done by us, our works have effects. God works through us to advance His Will and Word.

Sometimes, a church can deceive people with its incantations, recitations, rituals, etc. to the exclusion of the real thing (Acts 2 style). A person can be led to believe (and they often are) that they are right with God because they are right with the church. By simply reciting the Nicene Creed for example, one isn’t necessarily uttering a “confession of faith†because they must also “believe in their heartâ€. No prayer book or missal can put real faith into you, just as no water baptism can save you. Only a baptism by the Spirit does that, and we can’t control Him.

God works through rituals and other human activities, to include reading the Bible. When God commands men to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit, He has made a promise that when we DO such things, He is there baptizing with the Spirit. Not that we are commanding Him, but that HE is living up to His promises.

Dead faith does not save.

…And is therefore no faith at all.

You are discarding the rules of grammar. Dead faith is not "no faith at all". Carefully read the last verse of James 2. A body, albeit dead, is STILL a body. Faith, albeit dead, is still faith.

Regards

 

[mondar]

Mondar,

Could you please edit your last post immediately preceding this one? I think a "/quote" got dropped somewhere and it is difficult to follow it.

thanks

Francis, I should proof read what I write. I see I made some mistakes in that last post and it needs edited as you said. For some reason I am unable to edit it. Possibly the post is now too old and I cannot access it, I have not been here for a while (not sure how long).

 

[francisdesales]

Mondar,

Could you please edit your last post immediately preceding this one? I think a "/quote" got dropped somewhere and it is difficult to follow it.

thanks

Francis, I should proof read what I write. I see I made some mistakes in that last post and it needs edited as you said. For some reason I am unable to edit it. Possibly the post is now too old and I cannot access it, I have not been here for a while (not sure how long).

Answer at your convenience, if you desire to answer at all.

Regards

 

[HisSheep]

Jesus doesn’t give up on His sheep… He is patient, wanting none of them to perish. You are trying to convince folks that apostasy can occur in those who at one time had TRUE faith. Scripture doesn’t bear it out.

Do you think God gave up on the Israelites as they journeyed to the Promised Land? Now, I would like to divert your attention to 1 Cor 10:1-11. Please note that Paul is using typology that clearly is a lesson to those who think that God will not EVENTUALLY rain down punishment and wrath upon disobedient Christians who think they cannot fall...

It’s interesting that you had me stop at verse 11. Verse 12 puts an exclamation mark on your point:

1Cor10:
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Another interesting thing is that verse 13 wraps it all up by puting an exclamation mark on MY point:

1Cor10:
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

He is passing His chosen third through the refiner’s fire! There's a great Protestant Hymn about it. It's based on Malachi 3:2, but I especially like the way Zechariah puts it:

Zechariah 13:
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

He doesn’t intend to loose any in the fire. He is preparing us for the Kingdom.

How do you differentiate between "man's good works" and "man's good works done by God"? If a man is doing good deeds, casting out devils and calling upon Jesus, how do you know it is a work of man, rather than God?

I don’t differentiate… Jesus does… I don't need to know.

So why is it so many are judging whether someone is unregenerate or not? why am I being told that the men in James 2 or Mat 7 are not regenerate? We are hardly given any information about that person's call from God, their reaction upon first coming to Him, etc. Yet, the person was unregenerate because of a momentary act of or action of lackluster or dead faith?

No one here has judged whether someone is unregenerate or not. We don’t have to. We are listening to Jesus tell us how He will judge people. He essentially says, “Where’s your invitation?â€

The only time that I am aware of that Jesus passes judgment is in Rev, at the white throne judgment. During His last visit Jesus said that He hadn’t come to judge the world… At what other time might Jesus dismiss people? In His earthly ministry, He never once denied anyone who asked. The people in Mat. 7 who say “Lord, Lord…†were never known to Christ. Jesus says so. He didn’t say, “We’ve grown apart†or, “I don’t know you anymore.†He said, “I never knew you…â€

Sometimes, a church can deceive people with its incantations, recitations, rituals, etc. to the exclusion of the real thing (Acts 2 style). A person can be led to believe (and they often are) that they are right with God because they are right with the church. By simply reciting the Nicene Creed for example, one isn’t necessarily uttering a “confession of faith†because they must also “believe in their heartâ€. No prayer book or missal can put real faith into you, just as no water baptism can save you. Only a baptism by the Spirit does that, and we can’t control Him.

God works through rituals and other human activities, to include reading the Bible. When God commands men to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit, He has made a promise that when we DO such things, He is there baptizing with the Spirit. Not that we are commanding Him, but that HE is living up to His promises.

Oh dear, you are a Catholic, aren’t you. I would like to direct your attention to Acts 10:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Here we have a clear example of how it works. The Spirit baptism comes first. After that, one gets baptized. Water baptism doesn’t somehow obligate the Spirit. Baptism is not the call for God to fulfill a promise, it is a marching order from the Lord; a command to those who believe, and therefore, presumably, already have the Spirit.

Are you about to suggest that if a person is lukewarm today, they must have ALWAYS been lukewarm, and their initial acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior was all fake in their minds at the moment????

No... What…? What does this question mean? Are you asking if I think our faith is static for the duration of our lives?

It appears from my discussion on this subject with two Calvinists is that a person is "known by their fruits" as being saved/regenerate, and that this fruit must constantly be shown. Thus, a person who suffers a setback in their walk, perhaps like the people in James, is proof that they were never saved.

A “setback in the Christian walk†is not equivalent to a “loss of faithâ€. Actually, I still don’t understand what this means. What are you asking me if I am about to suggest? What is this “always lukewarm†thing?

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

And John 10:

28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Saul was sealed with the Spirit, also. Being snatched BY SOMEONE else gives us security that ANOTHER being cannot come between God and the COMMUNITY. The "them" is the entire community. Individuals can and do fall away by their own volition.

What?! The Ephesians quote says that the Holy Spirit is a “deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€. I cite it because it describes the permanent condition of salvation. The Holy Spirit is a deposit of guarantee. With the Spirit, God “sets apart†his people; sanctification:

sanc•tify (sa?k?t? f??)
transitive verb sanctified -•fied?, sanctifying -•fy?•ing
1.to make holy; specif.,
a.to set apart as holy; consecrate
b.to make free from sin; purify
2.to make binding or inviolable by a religious sanction
3.to make productive of spiritual blessing
4.to make seem morally right or binding

The pouring out of the Holy Spirit on a person happens at the moment they first believe (That is… really believe; not a “fall –away†believe.), and from then on, they are justified, and therefore, glorified. They should have the benefit of understanding what has happened to them. They were predestined, justified and glorified; just as Paul describes in Romans 8:30:

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The “no one can snatch them them out of my hand†thing is from John 10. Jesus had just delivered the parable of the good shepherd, in which Jesus is the shepherd and the people He is going to save are sheep. The Jews He was addressing didn’t believe Him. He assures them that they are not His sheep, and that this is the cause of their disbelief:

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Jesus is saying that His work in salvation is sure. “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.†is pretty straight forward. So is this:

John 5:24
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

That too, is all past tense… “HAS eternal life, WILL not be condemned, and HAS crossed…â€

Those who “fall away†are not those who merely sin, they are those who lack faith. Paul certainly wrestled with sin. (Romans 7:15-20) A transgression is not the same as losing ones faith (if there were such a thing ;) ). Despite their efforts, even the saved continue to fall short of the glory of God and sin, but they are washed clean by the blood of Christ. When we become conscious of how often we sin, we realize just how forgiven we really are; how sufficient Christ’s work really was. That makes us thankful, and that drives us to try all the more. The process of trying, failing, confessing, thanking, and trying harder is part of the sanctification process. It brings improvement and a relationship with God. It teaches humility and reliance on God. It allows God to prove Himself to you in deeper and deeper ways. Our inability to live sinless lives is a result of imperfect faith. If our faith were unblemished, we would surely never sin. That’s how it will be in Heaven. When God is through refining us, we will finally be glorified, and will no longer sin. So, it’s a loop. More faith equals the ability to overcome sin equals more faith. Combine that with love and gratitude, and you have a powerful sanctification!

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

It’s interesting that you had me stop at verse 11. Verse 12 puts an exclamation mark on your point:

1Cor10:
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

I was going on memory of where verse 12 actually was. I guess I fell one verse short, though I allude to it!

Another interesting thing is that verse 13 wraps it all up by puting an exclamation mark on MY point:

1Cor10:
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Paul is not overturning what he just said with this statement! You have Paul contradicting 12 verses just like that? It is merely support that as long as you remain in God, He will not pull the rug out from under you. Those who fell were given the opportunity, God did not abandon them without reason.

He is passing His chosen third through the refiner’s fire! There's a great Protestant Hymn about it. It's based on Malachi 3:2, but I especially like the way Zechariah puts it:

Zechariah 13:
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

He doesn’t intend to loose any in the fire. He is preparing us for the Kingdom.

That was not the point of 1 Cor 10:1-12. There is no indication that those lost in the desert were a typology for "preparation for the kingdom"!!! They didn't make it to the goal. Period. BEWARE OF FALLING, not "don't worry, it is only preparation". The warning is for Christians who can be lost, just as the many Jews in the desert, who were LOST.

No one here has judged whether someone is unregenerate or not. We don’t have to. We are listening to Jesus tell us how He will judge people. He essentially says, “Where’s your invitation?â€

In James 2, Jesus is not mentioned. And yet, his audience is entirely unregenerate because of what may have been a temporary lapse in prudent and loving behavior towards the poor??? That is the problem with "OSAS". Rather than being secure, one must question whether such a temporary lapse is evidence of "Jesus never knew you"...

The only time that I am aware of that Jesus passes judgment is in Rev, at the white throne judgment. During His last visit Jesus said that He hadn’t come to judge the world… At what other time might Jesus dismiss people? In His earthly ministry, He never once denied anyone who asked.

Hey, why are you telling me "never"? Sure He did.

The rich young man.
The man who wanted to wait to bury his father and collect his inheritance first.
The man who wanted to say goodbye to his family first.
The foolish virgins.
The man without a wedding coat at the feast.
The hypocritical Pharisee in prayer.

These immediately come to mind, perhaps there are more. Clearly, discipleship is not just about "asking". I think Jesus is also looking at the inner motives, esp. when I see the exceptions I note above...

The people in Mat. 7 who say “Lord, Lord…†were never known to Christ. Jesus says so. He didn’t say, “We’ve grown apart†or, “I don’t know you anymore.†He said, “I never knew you…â€

I have already said this was exaggeration and have given you the reasons. The men involved drove out demons. Does man drive out demons without God? Can man do ANY good work without Jesus? Are you aware of what a Pelagian is? This heresy says that man can do good deeds without God, that we don't need the Spirit of God. Is that the witness of the Scriptures? Does our idea of God clash with the literal interpretation of that verse?

Oh dear, you are a Catholic, aren’t you. I would like to direct your attention to Acts 10:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Here we have a clear example of how it works. The Spirit baptism comes first.

Oh dear, you are NOT Catholic...

The ritual and the act of the Spirit coming occur at the same event. Thus, the association in Scriptures of the two. Are you familiar with Acts 2? The order is reversed there. The point is that at baptism, the Spirit comes. The exact order in Scriptures is not important because they relate BOTH orders happening. But note that in Christian baptism, the Spirit is ALWAYS mentioned at some point. Thus, the two are associated with each other - being baptised means that by faith, the Spirit of God has also come to regenerate and give birth from above.

After that, one gets baptized. Water baptism doesn’t somehow obligate the Spirit.

Nothing obligates God. Not even your faith proclamation...

But by faith, when we are washed in the lather of regeneration, we are INDEED visited by the Spirit in a new and unique way.

Baptism is not the call for God to fulfill a promise, it is a marching order from the Lord; a command to those who believe, and therefore, presumably, already have the Spirit.

Sure, we already have the Spirit, even pagans have the Spirit of God writing a law on their hearts (Romans 2). But the Spirit is given in a unique way, and now, by baptism, we are buried with Christ and we will rise again with Christ (Romans 6).

A “setback in the Christian walk†is not equivalent to a “loss of faithâ€.

LOL! No, according to some words being said, it is an indication of NEVER having faith!!! when Christ speaks about lukewarm faith in Revelation, He says He hates it, but doesn't He imply that they once did NOT have lukewarm faith? Doesn't THAT mean that they indeed have LIVING faith? So how can a "setback in the Christian walk", a lukewarm faith, suddenly become "I never knew you" or "he never was regenerate to begin with"???

The Ephesians quote says that the Holy Spirit is a “deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€. I cite it because it describes the permanent condition of salvation.

You are incorrect. First of all, as usual, Paul is speaking to the entire community of faith as one organism. He is not making a statement to each member of the community, some unconditional promise that they cannot falter, for elsewhere, Paul CLEARLY says a man can fall into a life of sin and be rejected from the Kingdom.

Secondly, I gave you the example of Saul. He also was marked by the Spirit, sealed. The promise is conditional. The inheritance cannot be lost UNLESS YOU GIVE IT UP. Those in God's possession, those who abide in Christ, shall receive the inheritance. Those who do not abide in Christ do not receive the inheritance. And SAYING we abide in Christ is not meaningful, unless we are doing the will of the Father (back to Matthew 7). SAYING it is pointless if you are not DOING the will of the Father. As it happens, DOING the will of the Father, obedience to the Commandments, is our SURE SIGN that Christ abides in us (1 John, multiple times).

25[/size]Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Jesus is saying that His work in salvation is sure. “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.†is pretty straight forward.

He gives Himself. He is eternal life. It is not a status or a ticket. Having eternal life = Having Jesus abiding within you. Thus, Christ says in John 6. AS LONG AS you have Christ abiding in you, you shall never perish. You do not have Christ abiding within you when you willfully sin, wrote "Paul" to the Hebrews.

John 5:24
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Keep on believing. BELIEVES is a present tense verb of action. Not something you did 20 years ago and no longer do.

That too, is all past tense… “HAS eternal life, WILL not be condemned, and HAS crossed…â€

He who BELIEVES. Today. Those who fall away from belief have crossed back...

Those who “fall away†are not those who merely sin, they are those who lack faith.

Disagree. Back to James. Does he say that the audience "lacks faith" - or does he call their faith (which exists) "dead"?

Despite their efforts, even the saved continue to fall short of the glory of God and sin, but they are washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Only when they call upon it and repent...

When we become conscious of how often we sin, we realize just how forgiven we really are; how sufficient Christ’s work really was. That makes us thankful, and that drives us to try all the more. The process of trying, failing, confessing, thanking, and trying harder is part of the sanctification process. It brings improvement and a relationship with God. It teaches humility and reliance on God. It allows God to prove Himself to you in deeper and deeper ways. Our inability to live sinless lives is a result of imperfect faith. If our faith were unblemished, we would surely never sin.

A person can have perfect faith, enough to move mountains, but without love, is nothing. Again, you are wrapping faith and love into one definition. Faith can be dead faith or living faith. but both are still faith - the belief in God. Even the devil has faith, albeit dead.

Regards

 

[HisSheep]

1Cor10:
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Paul is not overturning what he just said with this statement! You have Paul contradicting 12 verses just like that? It is merely support that as long as you remain in God, He will not pull the rug out from under you. Those who fell were given the opportunity, God did not abandon them without reason.

No Francisdesales, Paul is not overturning what he said in the earlier verses. First he says to beware of sin and transgression. He then adds that God will assist us effectively in doing so. God does this kind of thing a lot. He says to acknowledge Him before men, but adds that He will give us the words. He says to purify ourselves, but also says He is purifying us. He tells us to have faith, but tells us that He gives us faith. Here, He is basically saying to persevere, but He assures us that it is possible, and that He provides a way for us to escape temptation. (a way to Flee from it?) His grace in this matter makes it possible. It would otherwise be impossible.

He is passing His chosen third through the refiner’s fire! There's a great Protestant Hymn about it. It's based on Malachi 3:2, but I especially like the way Zechariah puts it:

Zechariah 13:
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

He doesn’t intend to loose any in the fire. He is preparing us for the Kingdom.

That was not the point of 1 Cor 10:1-12. There is no indication that those lost in the desert were a typology for "preparation for the kingdom"!!! They didn't make it to the goal. Period. BEWARE OF FALLING, not "don't worry, it is only preparation". The warning is for Christians who can be lost, just as the many Jews in the desert, who were LOST.

I don’t exactly understand your reference to the Jews who were cut off in the desert. I don’t think you and I view Israel in quite the same way. On the whole, I consider the entire House of Israel to be a prefiguring of the Christian walk. Sometimes a single person is used. (Noah, David, Samson, etc) In this case, it is a group of Jews, not the whole Nation, and not a single person. I think it is a lesson in faith and judgment for us today, and they represent those who lack faith. Not everyone will make it to the goal. Period – to use your word. God never promised that each individual Jew would make it to the Promised land.

But now we get into the difference between the Old and New Covenants. The Nation of Israel had God in their presence, but they did not each individually have the indwelling Spirit of God guiding them. This was the trouble with the Old Covenant. Unable to sufficiently please God by adherence to the law, they were scattered by God. Now He is gathering their seed up, bringing the Nation to the land He promised.

This Christian walk IS the refining fire we are being passed through. The bulk of it is growing in faith. Included are perseverance, purification, humility, love, patience, wisdom, etc… all of these things are part of the refining process. A true initial faith leads a person to begin growing these areas. He takes us by the hand and walks us through it. We will never be complete in these things until after our death; death is also part of the process. In your model, it seems like our imperfection at our time of death will damn us. In my scenario, we die trying.

The only time that I am aware of that Jesus passes judgment is in Rev, at the white throne judgment. During His last visit Jesus said that He hadn’t come to judge the world… At what other time might Jesus dismiss people? In His earthly ministry, He never once denied anyone who asked.

Hey, why are you telling me "never"? Sure He did.

The rich young man.
The man who wanted to wait to bury his father and collect his inheritance first.
The man who wanted to say goodbye to his family first.
The foolish virgins.
The man without a wedding coat at the feast.
The hypocritical Pharisee in prayer.

These immediately come to mind, perhaps there are more. Clearly, discipleship is not just about "asking". I think Jesus is also looking at the inner motives, esp. when I see the exceptions I note above...

How many of these examples are allusions used by Jesus rather than actual judgments? I’m talkin’ Judgment here; not just a discernment. No one is condemned to Hell in the Bible until the Day of Judgment. At least, I don’t think so…

Rich young man (ruler) is a character in a parable.
The foolish virgins is a character in a parable.
The Pharisee in prayer is a character in a parable.
The man at the banquet without a coat is also a character in a parable. Ironically enough, Jesus sums the story up with this final verse:

Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Hmmmm…. I wonder what that could possibly mean…??!!

The other examples, while not parables, are not judgments in the “rod of God†sort of way. Any of them certainly have something to think about. Their faith (they have called on the Lord) will become saving if that if God’s will for them, and it apparently is or they wouldn’t have faith in the first place. I know you’ll see this differently, but I became faithful as an adult of nearly forty. I have to admit that this has contributed to my understanding of scripture. I believed, confessed and repented simultaneously as light dawned on Marblehead. Empowered with gratitude, I responded with works/obedience, though imperfectly. The works confirmed my new faith. The Bible confirms this pattern.

The people in Mat. 7 who say “Lord, Lord…†were never known to Christ. Jesus says so. He didn’t say, “We’ve grown apart†or, “I don’t know you anymore.†He said, “I never knew you…â€

I have already said this was exaggeration and have given you the reasons. The men involved drove out demons. Does man drive out demons without God? Can man do ANY good work without Jesus? Are you aware of what a Pelagian is? This heresy says that man can do good deeds without God, that we don't need the Spirit of God. Is that the witness of the Scriptures? Does our idea of God clash with the literal interpretation of that verse?

I made this distinction a bunch of posts back. Man can do no works that benefit his soul without God. Man can however, without faith, do temporal “good†works that benefit God. There is no salvation in them, but they work to God’s benefit. This is similar to adherence to the law or submission to governing authorities. It is good for God and His plan that there is a law, and that even the ungodly obey it. It does not benefit the soul of the ungodly to adhere to the law, just as it does not benefit them to donate to a charity, even a Christian one. If the faithful man gives to charity, he is gathering up treasure in heaven. But the unfaithful man does no such thing. He isn’t going to heaven.

Likewise, I am thankful to God for the works I’ve done since I learned of my salvation, but I know I don’t deserve recognition for the “good†things I did as an atheist.

Here is a bit about the very question you raise about “driving out demonsâ€:

Luke 9:49-50

49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

Make of it what you will.

Oh dear, you are a Catholic, aren’t you. I would like to direct your attention to Acts 10:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Here we have a clear example of how it works. The Spirit baptism comes first.

Oh dear, you are NOT Catholic...

The ritual and the act of the Spirit coming occur at the same event. Thus, the association in Scriptures of the two. Are you familiar with Acts 2? The order is reversed there. The point is that at baptism, the Spirit comes. The exact order in Scriptures is not important because they relate BOTH orders happening. But note that in Christian baptism, the Spirit is ALWAYS mentioned at some point. Thus, the two are associated with each other - being baptised means that by faith, the Spirit of God has also come to regenerate and give birth from above.

Here, the Spirit came first, then the water baptism. In verse 44 Peter is preaching. We are told that the Spirit came upon those present while Peter was still speaking. Then in verses 47 and 48 Peter decides that they should be baptized by water because they had already received the Spirit. Here, the Spirit arrived before the water.

In Acts 2 also, the Spirit arrives first, in verse 4, and then they are baptized in verse 41, the last verse of the chapter.

Just like any other “work†water baptism doesn’t benefit the soul of the unregenerate.

Baptism is not the call for God to fulfill a promise, it is a marching order from the Lord; a command to those who believe, and therefore, presumably, already have the Spirit.

Sure, we already have the Spirit, even pagans have the Spirit of God writing a law on their hearts (Romans 2). But the Spirit is given in a unique way, and now, by baptism, we are buried with Christ and we will rise again with Christ (Romans 6).

Even pagans have the Spirit of God – doing something in them? I don’t read Romans 2 like that at all. Romans 2:12-16, I think is what you’re referring to. I think it tells us that God has created us with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, however vague. Paul implies that even if we adhere to our own law (any law other than Jewish law) we will be unable to keep that law, too. We can rightly be condemned on that basis, says Paul.

A “setback in the Christian walk†is not equivalent to a “loss of faithâ€.

LOL! No, according to some words being said, it is an indication of NEVER having faith!!! when Christ speaks about lukewarm faith in Revelation, He says He hates it, but doesn't He imply that they once did NOT have lukewarm faith? Doesn't THAT mean that they indeed have LIVING faith? So how can a "setback in the Christian walk", a lukewarm faith, suddenly become "I never knew you" or "he never was regenerate to begin with"???

Are you talking about the letter to the church in Laodicea? Still, the fact remains… God ordains all things. Apparently a lot of people in that church were not faithful. Sounds to me like passive attenders. Jesus’ message to them is essentially the gospel distilled to a short note. It sounds like my pastor’s sermon just last Sunday: “If you’re sitting out there, and you haven’t yet given your life over to Jesus…†Choose whom you will serve. (that’s right!) Invest in the Kingdom of God. Repent! Someone’s knocking! Let him with ears open the door! Jesus says, “Come sit with me on my throne!†To me, this is another call to the sheep that they might take up their crosses and follow.

There are however a couple of verses in Revelation that I can’t square with predestination. They mention the removal of names from the Book of Life. I don’t know what to make of these, but I’m not willing to throw all the other stuff out the window like this one:

Mark 13:22

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

God will save everyone He intends to save.

Hey! What's with the 15,000 character limit?! I'll have to split this up.

To be continured....

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

...Continued from previous post.

The Ephesians quote says that the Holy Spirit is a “deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€. I cite it because it describes the permanent condition of salvation.

You are incorrect. First of all, as usual, Paul is speaking to the entire community of faith as one organism. He is not making a statement to each member of the community, some unconditional promise that they cannot falter, for elsewhere, Paul CLEARLY says a man can fall into a life of sin and be rejected from the Kingdom.

Secondly, I gave you the example of Saul. He also was marked by the Spirit, sealed. The promise is conditional. The inheritance cannot be lost UNLESS YOU GIVE IT UP. Those in God's possession, those who abide in Christ, shall receive the inheritance. Those who do not abide in Christ do not receive the inheritance. And SAYING we abide in Christ is not meaningful, unless we are doing the will of the Father (back to Matthew 7). SAYING it is pointless if you are not DOING the will of the Father. As it happens, DOING the will of the Father, obedience to the Commandments, is our SURE SIGN that Christ abides in us (1 John, multiple times).

I agree with that last bit. But the Saul thing is Old Testament. That’s a different matter. That was works based. This is like the Jews who died in the desert… Saul routinely disobeyed God. For us it is a lesson in faith. Saul failed to do God’s will because of a lack of faith. (why else?) Had he had proper faith, he would have done what God had asked, as Noah did. Saul didn’t repent, he was jealous, he didn’t wipe out Amalek.

Your take on Ephesians 1:13-14 is new to me. You think Paul is saying that the Spirit has been granted to the church generally, but not to any specific people? I read it differently. Paul says,†Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit†This sentence doesn’t apply to non believers. He says that those who believed were marked. Furthermore, the whole letter is addressed to “To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus". Saints are all those who are sanctified; the faithful are the saved. They are one in the same, and the letter is addressed to them. It is not directed to non-believers. Here he harkens to Ezekiel 36 but says the same thing, maybe you’ll find it more convincing:

2 Corinthians 1:22

22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Is Paul saying that God put His Spirit into the heart of the community?

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Jesus is saying that His work in salvation is sure. “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.†is pretty straight forward.

He gives Himself. He is eternal life. It is not a status or a ticket. Having eternal life = Having Jesus abiding within you. Thus, Christ says in John 6. AS LONG AS you have Christ abiding in you, you shall never perish. You do not have Christ abiding within you when you willfully sin, wrote "Paul" to the Hebrews.

Cut it out. You actually read John 10:27-29 to read: “I am eternal life. I offer myself to some sheep, those who follow will henceforth be my sheep.� What about the “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand†part? This is very important. God didn’t give Jesus all people as sheep:

1. None of the sheep will be lost (snatched).
2. Many people will be lost. (we know this).
3. Those that are lost weren’t HIS sheep to begin with.

It is a status: faith in Jesus Christ or not. You are marked with a seal upon believing. That seal is your ticket.

John 5:24
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Keep on believing. BELIEVES is a present tense verb of action. Not something you did 20 years ago and no longer do.

When has he "crossed over from death to life"? Only after dying? Or upon believing?

If you truly believe now, you will still believe in 20 years.

When we become conscious of how often we sin, we realize just how forgiven we really are; how sufficient Christ’s work really was. That makes us thankful, and that drives us to try all the more. The process of trying, failing, confessing, thanking, and trying harder is part of the sanctification process. It brings improvement and a relationship with God. It teaches humility and reliance on God. It allows God to prove Himself to you in deeper and deeper ways. Our inability to live sinless lives is a result of imperfect faith. If our faith were unblemished, we would surely never sin.

A person can have perfect faith, enough to move mountains, but without love, is nothing. Again, you are wrapping faith and love into one definition. Faith can be dead faith or living faith. but both are still faith - the belief in God. Even the devil has faith, albeit dead.

Satan cannot accept Jesus into His life and submit to Him. He is not elect. I have that on good authority. We can both see the predestination in that, right?

I think that we are imperfect in every sense, until our glorification. Through our sanctification we are improving (being improved), but death is required to complete the process.

This is fun. I am learning much. Thanks.

-HisSheep

 

[francisdesales]

Paul is not overturning what he just said with this statement! You have Paul contradicting 12 verses just like that? It is merely support that as long as you remain in God, He will not pull the rug out from under you. Those who fell were given the opportunity, God did not abandon them without reason.

No Francisdesales, Paul is not overturning what he said in the earlier verses. First he says to beware of sin and transgression. He then adds that God will assist us effectively in doing so.

You are forgeting that Paul says MORE than just "beware of sin and transgression". He says beware that you don't become LOST! The reference to the Jews in the desert makes that very clear to any reader/hearer of the first century, who were perfectly aware of that first generation of Jews fleeing Egypt.

I don’t exactly understand your reference to the Jews who were cut off in the desert. I don’t think you and I view Israel in quite the same way.

All but two of the Jews who left Egypt survived to enter the Promised Land.
Is not the Promised Land understood by Christians to be the spiritual metaphor for heaven?
Is not the Jews the People of God whom the Lord saved from slavery?
Is not this slavery seen as a spiritual metaphor for sin?

And so, the example Paul uses CLEARLY points to a situation in the OT that could manifest itself in the New Age - Christians falling away and never getting to the Promised Land - despite being initially saved from sin... BEWARE Christian, that this doesn't happen to you - you who was once saved from sin and is being led by the "ROCK" in the "desert of life", Jesus Christ.

Notice how Paul adds this bit of extra-biblical tradition - that the "Rock" followed the Jews in the desert? Jesus continues to do so now, and this is a fine spiritual metaphor that applies to Christians.

God never promised that each individual Jew would make it to the Promised land.

Indeed, nor will each individual Christian - that's my point, and Paul's. (and Jesus - "Lord, Lord..."!)

But now we get into the difference between the Old and New Covenants. The Nation of Israel had God in their presence, but they did not each individually have the indwelling Spirit of God guiding them. This was the trouble with the Old Covenant. Unable to sufficiently please God by adherence to the law, they were scattered by God. Now He is gathering their seed up, bringing the Nation to the land He promised.

The Spirit of God has ALWAYS been active among His People, but now, in a more manifest and sublime way. A fulfillment of the promise, but the fact that SOME JEWS were indeed faithful and following God is absolute proof that the Spirit was working even in the OT. By the way, it is false to presume that the Jews thought they had to PERFECTLY follow every dictate of the law or they wouldn't be saved... That's just not true, according to them. If you read the Psalms, you will find the reliance of mercy from God, not perfection of one's own works...The polemics of Paul should be understood as refering to a specific class of Jews, not the entire Jewish way of thinking.

This Christian walk IS the refining fire we are being passed through. The bulk of it is growing in faith. Included are perseverance, purification, humility, love, patience, wisdom, etc… all of these things are part of the refining process. A true initial faith leads a person to begin growing these areas. He takes us by the hand and walks us through it. We will never be complete in these things until after our death; death is also part of the process. In your model, it seems like our imperfection at our time of death will damn us. In my scenario, we die trying.

I think on sanctification, we agree more than you think. I do not recall REQUIRING that we be perfect at the time of our deaths. Remember, we believe in Purgatory - and whether you believe in it or not, the entire reason for its existence PRESUMES that the saved die in an imperfect state... So yes, we die trying, also...

In His earthly ministry, He never once denied anyone who asked.

Sure He did.

The rich young man.
The man who wanted to wait to bury his father and collect his inheritance first.
The man who wanted to say goodbye to his family first.
The foolish virgins.
The man without a wedding coat at the feast.
The hypocritical Pharisee in prayer.

These immediately come to mind, perhaps there are more. Clearly, discipleship is not just about "asking". I think Jesus is also looking at the inner motives, esp. when I see the exceptions I note above...

How many of these examples are allusions used by Jesus rather than actual judgments? I’m talkin’ Judgment here; not just a discernment. No one is condemned to Hell in the Bible until the Day of Judgment. At least, I don’t think so…

There seems to be a contradiction in what you asked and your comments here. You made a statement that no one was refused by Christ - no one who wanted to follow Jesus was refused. I gave you examples. Now, you are talking about "Judgment" - and then you deny that in the next sentence??? ]

Rich young man (ruler) is a character in a parable.
The foolish virgins is a character in a parable.
The Pharisee in prayer is a character in a parable.
The man at the banquet without a coat is also a character in a parable. Ironically enough, Jesus sums the story up with this final verse:

Do you understand the point of a parable? (rich young man is not a parable, by the way)

The other examples, while not parables, are not judgments in the “rod of God†sort of way.

That is terminology that I am unfamilar with.

Any of them certainly have something to think about. Their faith (they have called on the Lord) will become saving if that if God’s will for them, and it apparently is or they wouldn’t have faith in the first place. I know you’ll see this differently, but I became faithful as an adult of nearly forty. I have to admit that this has contributed to my understanding of scripture. I believed, confessed and repented simultaneously as light dawned on Marblehead. Empowered with gratitude, I responded with works/obedience, though imperfectly. The works confirmed my new faith. The Bible confirms this pattern.

In what ways do you think I disagree with this pattern???

Man can do no works that benefit his soul without God. Man can however, without faith, do temporal “good†works that benefit God. There is no salvation in them, but they work to God’s benefit. This is similar to adherence to the law or submission to governing authorities. It is good for God and His plan that there is a law, and that even the ungodly obey it. It does not benefit the soul of the ungodly to adhere to the law, just as it does not benefit them to donate to a charity, even a Christian one. If the faithful man gives to charity, he is gathering up treasure in heaven. But the unfaithful man does no such thing. He isn’t going to heaven.

And now tell me why the unfaithful man who donates the exact same money is not going to heaven as the faithful man who will. How does God distinguish the difference?

Likewise, I am thankful to God for the works I’ve done since I learned of my salvation, but I know I don’t deserve recognition for the “good†things I did as an atheist.

How does an atheist drive out demons in the name of Christ???

Here is a bit about the very question you raise about “driving out demonsâ€:

Luke 9:49-50

49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

I don't think this really refers to our topic - it is more on the subject of different communities that proclaim Christ and we are all on the same side.

The ritual and the act of the Spirit coming occur at the same event. Thus, the association in Scriptures of the two. Are you familiar with Acts 2? The order is reversed there. The point is that at baptism, the Spirit comes. The exact order in Scriptures is not important because they relate BOTH orders happening. But note that in Christian baptism, the Spirit is ALWAYS mentioned at some point. Thus, the two are associated with each other - being baptised means that by faith, the Spirit of God has also come to regenerate and give birth from above.

Here, the Spirit came first, then the water baptism. In verse 44 Peter is preaching. We are told that the Spirit came upon those present while Peter was still speaking. Then in verses 47 and 48 Peter decides that they should be baptized by water because they had already received the Spirit. Here, the Spirit arrived before the water.

I am refering to Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice the order. It is like this elsewhere, the two orders appear interchangeable.

it is like arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. By assocating Baptism with the coming of the Spirit, over and over in Scriptures, we know by faith that when we are baptised, we are receiving the Holy Spirit, as an event. We are being buried with Christ DURING the baptism. We are regenerated IN the lather of Baptism. We are SAVED in Baptism...

Sure, we already have the Spirit, even pagans have the Spirit of God writing a law on their hearts (Romans 2). But the Spirit is given in a unique way, and now, by baptism, we are buried with Christ and we will rise again with Christ (Romans 6).

Even pagans have the Spirit of God – doing something in them? I don’t read Romans 2 like that at all. Romans 2:12-16, I think is what you’re referring to. I think it tells us that God has created us with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, however vague.

"Innate knowledge"? That is SUFFICIENT to bring about eternal life - if you read Romans 2 more carefully? No, this is the Holy Spirit working in the life of certain pagans that Paul recognizes exist but doesn't name. Such as these are "spiritual Jews", even without the Mosaic Law.

Paul implies that even if we adhere to our own law (any law other than Jewish law) we will be unable to keep that law, too. We can rightly be condemned on that basis, says Paul.

He does not say that in Romans 2:7-16, 29. He says some are saved to eternal life...

this is obviously a work of the Spirit of God. Not the man without God. Thus, in some cases, God DOES blow where HE wills - into the open and loving pagan, for ALL who love are from God.

LOL! No, according to some words being said, it is an indication of NEVER having faith!!! when Christ speaks about lukewarm faith in Revelation, He says He hates it, but doesn't He imply that they once did NOT have lukewarm faith? Doesn't THAT mean that they indeed have LIVING faith? So how can a "setback in the Christian walk", a lukewarm faith, suddenly become "I never knew you" or "he never was regenerate to begin with"???

Are you talking about the letter to the church in Laodicea? Still, the fact remains… God ordains all things. Apparently a lot of people in that church were not faithful. Sounds to me like passive attenders.

MY POINT is that the lukewarm faith of today does NOT deny the LIVING faith they ONCE had! The letter is to a Church of believers of Christ, a Church Christ loves and is rebuking because of their CURRENT situation. One's walk TODAY is not necessarily a reflection of whether a person had "true faith" 20 years ago. You cannot say "Oh, that person is a sinner, he must have NEVER been saved". You do not know because at one point in his life, he may have had a very strong living faith in God.

There are however a couple of verses in Revelation that I can’t square with predestination. They mention the removal of names from the Book of Life. I don’t know what to make of these, but I’m not willing to throw all the other stuff out the window like this one:

To me and my reading of the Scriptures, predestination is to the Church, to the New Israel, not to heaven. ORDINARILY, once one is in the Church, one has the tools and the ability to "work out their salvation" effectively, as the Spirit of God moves the wills of those willing to hear and listen to Him.

God will save everyone He intends to save.

God desires ALL men to be saved. That all men are not saved is an indication that God gives men the free will to reject Him. Those that God "intends to save" (without looking at this human view of God) are manifested by their actions...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

First of all, as usual, Paul is speaking to the entire community of faith as one organism. He is not making a statement to each member of the community, some unconditional promise that they cannot falter, for elsewhere, Paul CLEARLY says a man can fall into a life of sin and be rejected from the Kingdom.

Secondly, I gave you the example of Saul. He also was marked by the Spirit, sealed. The promise is conditional. The inheritance cannot be lost UNLESS YOU GIVE IT UP. Those in God's possession, those who abide in Christ, shall receive the inheritance. Those who do not abide in Christ do not receive the inheritance. And SAYING we abide in Christ is not meaningful, unless we are doing the will of the Father (back to Matthew 7). SAYING it is pointless if you are not DOING the will of the Father. As it happens, DOING the will of the Father, obedience to the Commandments, is our SURE SIGN that Christ abides in us (1 John, multiple times).

I agree with that last bit. But the Saul thing is Old Testament. That’s a different matter. That was works based. This is like the Jews who died in the desert… Saul routinely disobeyed God. For us it is a lesson in faith. Saul failed to do God’s will because of a lack of faith. (why else?) Had he had proper faith, he would have done what God had asked, as Noah did. Saul didn’t repent, he was jealous, he didn’t wipe out Amalek.

My friend, Christians routinely disobey God, as well. Christians who have been given the seal of the Spirit, called children of God and have an inheritance in heaven, if only...

Some Christians sin and do not repent.

I don't really see a big difference here, on the individual level, Saul is no different than any fallen away Christian, except that the Christian had been given the fuller Gospel and should know better...

Your take on Ephesians 1:13-14 is new to me. You think Paul is saying that the Spirit has been granted to the church generally, but not to any specific people? I read it differently. Paul says,†Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit†This sentence doesn’t apply to non believers.

Those in the Church are all believers, all marked by the seal of the Spirit during Baptism. They have all made a faith declaration, and thus, are PART of the Church. The Spirit abides in the Body of Christ, the Church. We, as part of the Body, participate in the action of the Spirit within that Body.

...

He says that those who believed were marked. Furthermore, the whole letter is addressed to “To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus". Saints are all those who are sanctified; the faithful are the saved. They are one in the same, and the letter is addressed to them. It is not directed to non-believers.

I don't understand how you think I thought it was. Of COURSE it is directed to the believers, the entire Church. The two are the same thing. My point is that it is not addressed to individuals, but the entire group. Whether one or two OF THIS GROUP falls away, the letter is not addressing. Paul is addressing the entire community's role as the Body of Christ, sealed with the Spirit and AS A COMMUNITY, has been given an inheritance in heaven.

Will every person remain within this saved community? Probably not.

Is Paul saying that God put His Spirit into the heart of the community?

Who is he addressing, Frank Johnson on 11 Straight Way, Ephesus, Turkey, Earth? ;)

He is addressing the community of Christian believers in Ephesus. The Spirit of God vivifies the Body of Christ - the community as a whole entity. The Body is not some vague and unconnected believers - Paul refers to the Body as cells of a human body - discernible and within a specific locale. A tangeant commodity, if you will.

He gives Himself. He is eternal life. It is not a status or a ticket. Having eternal life = Having Jesus abiding within you. Thus, Christ says in John 6. AS LONG AS you have Christ abiding in you, you shall never perish. You do not have Christ abiding within you when you willfully sin, wrote "Paul" to the Hebrews.

Cut it out. You actually read John 10:27-29 to read: “I am eternal life. I offer myself to some sheep, those who follow will henceforth be my sheep.�

yes, except He offers Himself for the sake of all... GOD is Eternal life ITSELF. He is EXISTENCE. Being. He IS. He calls Himself "I am.." So yes, Jesus is saying "I am eternal life". Not that Jesus is going to give them something apart from His own person like a bus ticket. By abiding in Christ, we have life, He in I and I in He. This relationship means I abide in eternal life Itself.

What about the “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand†part? This is very important. God didn’t give Jesus all people as sheep:

1. None of the sheep will be lost (snatched).
2. Many people will be lost. (we know this).
3. Those that are lost weren’t HIS sheep to begin with.

1. Doesn't address whether a sheep can be lost but whether it can be removed from the flock by ANOTHER entity, such as the devil, overriding the will of that sheep. YOU, as a sheep, can walk out the front door and be lost. This is not being "snatched"...
2. Agree.
3. It doesn't follow. See #1.

Keep on believing. BELIEVES is a present tense verb of action. Not something you did 20 years ago and no longer do.

When has he "crossed over from death to life"? Only after dying? Or upon believing?

If you truly believe now, you will still believe in 20 years.

???

I personally know people who "truly believed" many years ago and became atheists. This is just sophistry. Does a sin you commit today mean you didn't truly believe 10 years ago? If so, then you can NEVER know you are saved. This is the self-contradiction inherent in OSAS theory. One claims they are always saved, but they cannot know IF they were EVER saved, because future sin will make moot that idea that one was saved in the first place. Thus, the whole idea is sophistry, lacking in common sense and Scriptural support.

Satan cannot accept Jesus into His life and submit to Him. He is not elect. I have that on good authority. We can both see the predestination in that, right?

This is because satan CHOOSES, despite his knowledge of God, to reject God.

Christians can also choose to reject God, despite their knowledge of God...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Clearly, we have a "once saved" individual who has now fallen away! How ELSE would one 'escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus'? 'Know the ways of righteousness'? 'Had the holy commandment delivered to them'? And then, he becomes 'entangled AGAIN', which means they, at one time, were UNTANGLED. These are the telltale signs of a regenerated man!

Note, it would have been BETTER had he NEVER been saved to begin with - known the ways of righteousness. Turning from the holy commandment delivered is a clear indication that men, even saved men, can reject God.

This is fun. I am learning much. Thanks.

And I, thanks.

Regards