Predestination - OSAS

[Danus]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Clearly, we have a "once saved" individual who has now fallen away! How ELSE would one 'escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus'? 'Know the ways of righteousness'? 'Had the holy commandment delivered to them'? And then, he becomes 'entangled AGAIN', which means they, at one time, were UNTANGLED. These are the telltale signs of a regenerated man!

Note, it would have been BETTER had he NEVER been saved to begin with - known the ways of righteousness. Turning from the holy commandment delivered is a clear indication that men, even saved men, can reject God.

That is a powerful argument francisdesales. 2 Peter 2:20-21 does certainly seem to be describing a saved individual as you mentioned. But, could it also be describing someone who has knowledge of the lord; has knowledge of the path to salvation but has not accepted it?

I ask this because I'm willing to say that it could be read just as you described, but could it also be read in the manner in which I described?

I see the words knowing, entangled, but I don't see the words saved, or accepted. To me this could suggest what you say it says, but it could equally suggest how I read it.

2 Peter 2:20-21 (New International Version)
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

If that's true....If these verses could be describing one who is saved; who has accepted Christ in faith, or could be describing one who merely knows the path, but has yet to accept it....then what might be the deal breaker? What might be the things that tells us which it is?

I think it's this. I think that if the bible is the irrefutable word of God, and there are no contradictions, then there could be other evidence that tells us which person 2 Peter is describing. Evidence such as ....

Romans 8:28-29 (New International Version)
More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

This verse I think more clearly describes a person who accepts Christ...IE "those who love him". The question is, how can 2 Peter say one thing about those who have accepted Christ and Romans 8:28-29 say something else? That would seem to be a contradiction.

Now one might say that Romans 8:28-29 does not say anything about those who accept Christ turning away where as 2 Peter seem to address that. However Romans 8 dose seem to address the idea of 'turning away" in suggesting that it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Check it......

30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WOW! if 2 Peter describes a saved person who just ....turns away, and Romans 8 describes a saved person who can't be separated from Christ by powers far grater than MAN.....how is it that a mere man could give his life to Christ and then simply take it back and be separated? Unless ....unless 2 Peter is not speaking of a saved person, but only of a person who knows the path, but has yet to accept it.

You could say that Romans 8:37-38 says; "love of God" and not our love of God, but the period dose not end there doses it? It goes on to say ..."that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." then it stops. If we accept Christ, and Christ dewells within us; in our heart, and the love of God is in Jesus Christ who is in us...and Romans 8 say's NO power can separate that .......How could we turn away?

I failed to mention anything about predestination because I think Romans 8 is quite clear on that part.

Lastly,
John 10:27-30 (New International Version)
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Does this suggest we can turn from God once we have accepted him or does it seem more to suggest that we can't? In terms of predestination How also do you see it? I'd like hear your thoughts. on this and only this in response...I guess I'm asking for your view just on what I've mentioned, but if you have to go outside of it that's fine, i only ask that you address it specifically in terms of how you see it.

Also forgive me if I'm bringing up an old argument with scripture here.

 

[francisdesales]

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

That is a powerful argument francisdesales. 2 Peter 2:20-21 does certainly seem to be describing a saved individual as you mentioned. But, could it also be describing someone who has knowledge of the lord; has knowledge of the path to salvation but has not accepted it?

Only if you are a Pelagian - that one could earn salvation by doing good deeds of their own volition and without God regenerating someone...

How does one escape from the pollutions of the world THROUGH the knowledge of the Lord? Without being saved? We aren't talking about knowing about something, but an actual escape from something, sin... How is escape from sin possible?

Now, remember, let's not be anachronistic here. "Knowledge" to the ancient Hebrews and Greeks was not just knowing a fact. It also meant experiencing something intimately. Thus, we have a person who has escaped sin, the pollutions of the world, through an intimate knowledge of Christ. That is the definition of being saved, for the Bible tells us that being freed from sin IS SALVATION! They have freed themselves from a life of sin. That is only possible through the power of the Lord as a saved individual.

"Knowing" the ways of the Lord means to experience them, to do them. How is this possible without being saved and receiving the first fruits of salvation, the Holy Spirit? Does one escape sin WITHOUT being saved???

While we don't see the word "saved" here, the definition of the term describes the man's one-time status. Free from the pollutions of the world by intimate knowledge of Christ. Being saved means being saved from sin, the pollutions of the world. Being removed from the entanglement of the world is salvation.

This man had been once saved and had accepted the Lord and the Way.

"Now", he was worse off than if he had NEVER been saved....!

Romans 8:28-29 (New International Version)
More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Those who love God today. In the 2 Peter verses, we HAVE a person who loved God and escaped sin. They received and accepted the commandment, singular (the command to love). For whatever reason, he returned to the vomit of his former life.

When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today. Why? Because we don't know if we are one of the predestined to eternal life or not. God knows, but He isn't sharing that information with us individually. We don't know our future, only our present and past. As long as we love God, we are secure. When we stop loving God, we must beware of falling, for perhaps we are one of those who say "LORD, LORD", as in Matthew 7:21. We THOUGHT we were good to go...

A person is not being conformed to the likeness of God IF the person reverts back to a life of sin...

30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WOW! if 2 Peter describes a saved person who just ....turns away, and Romans 8 describes a saved person who can't be separated from Christ by powers far grater than MAN.....

Romans 8 is talking about ANOTHER FORCE coming between God and myself. NOT about ME WILLINGLY turning away. No other "god" or "power" or "principal" can come between the love God has for man.

But WE can grieve the Holy Spirit.

You could say that Romans 8:37-38 says; "love of God" and not our love of God, but the period dose not end there doses it? It goes on to say ..."that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." then it stops. If we accept Christ, and Christ dewells within us; in our heart, and the love of God is in Jesus Christ who is in us...and Romans 8 say's NO power can separate that .......How could we turn away?

IF we continue to love Jesus. IF we accept Jesus and He is dwelling within us. Yes. But when we freely revert to sin, He no longer is abiding within us. Scriptures tell us that we know Christ abides in us WHEN we are obeying the commandments. Not just because we say it while we continue to sin...

How could we turn away? Admittedly, it is unlikely that a person with true faith could turn away. However, circumstances can challenge believers and their faith can falter and fail. They can thus return to the life of their past. Priests and pastors have been known to do it. Did they "EVER" have faith? Of course. Who makes such a committment without faith in God and being saved first???

John 10:27-30 (New International Version)
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Does this suggest we can turn from God once we have accepted him or does it seem more to suggest that we can't? In terms of predestination How also do you see it? I'd like hear your thoughts. on this and only this in response...I guess I'm asking for your view just on what I've mentioned, but if you have to go outside of it that's fine, i only ask that you address it specifically in terms of how you see it.

Same as Romans 8. NO ONE ELSE can remove them from God's Hand. Another force cannot come between the love of God and man. Can we remove ourselves? Of course. Happens.

Regards

 

[Danus]

That is a powerful argument francisdesales. 2 Peter 2:20-21 does certainly seem to be describing a saved individual as you mentioned. But, could it also be describing someone who has knowledge of the lord; has knowledge of the path to salvation but has not accepted it?

Only if you are a Pelagian - that one could earn salvation by doing good deeds of their own volition and without God regenerating someone...

How does one escape from the pollutions of the world THROUGH the knowledge of the Lord? Without being saved? We aren't talking about knowing about something, but an actual escape from something, sin... How is escape from sin possible?

Now, remember, let's not be anachronistic here. "Knowledge" to the ancient Hebrews and Greeks was not just knowing a fact. It also meant experiencing something intimately. Thus, we have a person who has escaped sin, the pollutions of the world, through an intimate knowledge of Christ. That is the definition of being saved, for the Bible tells us that being freed from sin IS SALVATION! They have freed themselves from a life of sin. That is only possible through the power of the Lord as a saved individual.

"Knowing" the ways of the Lord means to experience them, to do them. How is this possible without being saved and receiving the first fruits of salvation, the Holy Spirit? Does one escape sin WITHOUT being saved???

While we don't see the word "saved" here, the definition of the term describes the man's one-time status. Free from the pollutions of the world by intimate knowledge of Christ. Being saved means being saved from sin, the pollutions of the world. Being removed from the entanglement of the world is salvation.

This man had been once saved and had accepted the Lord and the Way.

"Now", he was worse off than if he had NEVER been saved....!

And the evidence tends to lean with your explanation, but I would also like to bring up that it appears to me that Peter is not addressing anyone specific. I think it’s important to note that he could be speaking hypothetically to make a point. After all, as you mentioned, it’s hard to imagine anyone accepting Christ and turning away from Christ.

How could we turn away? Admittedly, it is unlikely that a person with true faith could turn away. However, circumstances can challenge believers and their faith can falter and fail. They can thus return to the life of their past. Priests and pastors have been known to do it. Did they "EVER" have faith? Of course. Who makes such a committment without faith in God and being saved first???

Historically Peter is addressing Christian faith and practice as well as false teachings, but we should address the question you posed. Who would make such a commitment without faith? I would add who can?

What we do know about the early church is Christian faith and practice, what I’m unsure of is what false teachings Peter might be addressing. We know in this second letter that he is addressing this, but we don’t know specifically what it is. Could 2 Peter 2:20-21 be alluding to something that we might not have the knowledge of, but in and of itself still fits into the whole of scripture? Is that possible?

In other words, could it be that there may have been false teaching in the church that those verses might be addressing? False teaching that we don’t know the specifics of, but that the church at that time does know and Peter is addressing it in those verses?
I can expand on that if you need me to for clarification of my question, but for now I’d like to address predestination. We can put a pin in 2 Peter.


Romans 8:28-29 (New International Version)
More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today. Why? Because we don't know if we are one of the predestined to eternal life or not. God knows, but He isn't sharing that information with us individually. We don't know our future, only our present and past.

Romans 8 is talking about ANOTHER FORCE coming between God and myself. NOT about ME WILLINGLY turning away. No other "god" or "power" or "principal" can come between the love God has for man.

Forgive me for mixing your quote together a little, but these are two things I want to address, first predestination.

There are references to predestination littered throughout scripture, Some very specific and some perhaps metaphoric, but in any case Romans 8 and also 9 seem to touch very specifically on predestination and election.

Your rebuttal about Romans 8 is weak. You’re too smart for that. You seem to gloss over the specific list of forces that are mentioned. When you say Romans 8 speaks about another force, two of the list of forces are present and future. “neither the present nor the futureâ€. …Hold that thought. You also say that; “We don't know our future, only our present and past.†However, we see evidence here that the future described as a force that can NOT separate us from God. How do you reconcile that?

If God knows the future, an I think you would agree he does, then the future does exist in some form. Isn’t it true that some will be saved and some will not? If it is, then wouldn’t God know this? This is the basis for my understanding of predestination. If there is a future that exists then we must all have a destiny to that end, and that must involve our coming to Christ or not before we die.

Let’s say of those who hear the word, some will accept it and some will not. Fair enough? Of those who hear the word and accept it, will they all have a conversion? I question this now more than ever. For me the answer is yes, but I can’t speak for all. What do you think?

Lastly, when you say; “When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today. Why? Because we don't know if we are one of the predestined to eternal life or not.†I think you hit the nail on the head for why some people have such a hard time with this doctrine of predestination. However, there are others, such as myself, who are able to embrace this doctrine. Why is that?

Don’t get me wrong, I can accept someone saying they don’t believe it, or understand it. I can not accept someone who says it’s false. I think to say its false is derelict, irresponsible and ignorant. Not saying you would say it’s false, perhaps asking that you don’t for my sake and for the sake of our discussion. I just got done with a mind-numbing discussion on this, and this thread is so far more refreshing. So…that out of the way.

I have to disagree that; “When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today.†To me they are very valuable and back up my faith. I once thought it fit well with every Christian, but I know it does not. I also know that it’s not a deal breaker to our salvation, but how do those who do not believe in predestination and election reconcile it to the whole of scripture when it’s all over the map as we see in Romans 8 and 9?

 

[francisdesales]

And the evidence tends to lean with your explanation, but I would also like to bring up that it appears to me that Peter is not addressing anyone specific. I think it’s important to note that he could be speaking hypothetically to make a point. After all, as you mentioned, it’s hard to imagine anyone accepting Christ and turning away from Christ.

Danus, I appreciate your honesty in recognizing the power of the argument I am making. But is it necessary in this case to actually name someone personally? It does appear that he is addressing false prophets earlier in the chapter, and other writings of Scriptures verify that this was an issue in the early churches. Thus, Peter's audience was not unique - they also faced false prophets, and thus, it is quite unlikely that he is describing hypotheticals.

Even if he was being hypothetical or didn't have anyone specific in mind, say Simon the Magician, the point is made that there is such a possibility in the Word of God. Peter would not even put such a hypothetical into his writing if it was IMPOSSIBLE, would he?

Historically Peter is addressing Christian faith and practice as well as false teachings, but we should address the question you posed. Who would make such a commitment without faith? I would add who can?

I would give others the benefit of the doubt when they come to the altar and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior. Do you think it is necessary to await, say, 20 years, to make sure "it sticks"??? It's not necessary to proclaim OSAS but then not really mean it, waiting for the "fall" to cast them out as "never were Christians".

What we do know about the early church is Christian faith and practice, what I’m unsure of is what false teachings Peter might be addressing. We know in this second letter that he is addressing this, but we don’t know specifically what it is. Could 2 Peter 2:20-21 be alluding to something that we might not have the knowledge of, but in and of itself still fits into the whole of scripture? Is that possible?

I am not sure I see the significance of knowing the specific heresy before making such a judgment as you are. The point is made, a saved man has fallen into sin again and is worse off than before. Does it matter what the sin was or what the false teaching was?

In other words, could it be that there may have been false teaching in the church that those verses might be addressing? False teaching that we don’t know the specifics of, but that the church at that time does know and Peter is addressing it in those verses?

So you are saying that the church put together a canon that accuses ITSELF of being a false teacher of the faith, knowing that it proclaims to be the "pillar and foundation of the truth" or the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" elsewhere? It seems to me that we have a false teacher who fell away and returned to the vomit of THEIR former life, so how could this be directed at an organization? It seems to be more directed at a person.

When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today. Why? Because we don't know if we are one of the predestined to eternal life or not. God knows, but He isn't sharing that information with us individually. We don't know our future, only our present and past.

Romans 8 is talking about ANOTHER FORCE coming between God and myself. NOT about ME WILLINGLY turning away. No other "god" or "power" or "principal" can come between the love God has for man.

Forgive me for mixing your quote together a little, but these are two things I want to address, first predestination.

There are references to predestination littered throughout scripture, Some very specific and some perhaps metaphoric, but in any case Romans 8 and also 9 seem to touch very specifically on predestination and election.

I agree that predestination is part of the faith...

Your rebuttal about Romans 8 is weak. You’re too smart for that. You seem to gloss over the specific list of forces that are mentioned. When you say Romans 8 speaks about another force, two of the list of forces are present and future. “neither the present nor the futureâ€. …Hold that thought. You also say that; “We don't know our future, only our present and past.†However, we see evidence here that the future described as a force that can NOT separate us from God. How do you reconcile that?

If God knows the future, an I think you would agree he does, then the future does exist in some form.

Yes, to God, the future IS. Yes. Again, I think that we just don't know specifically, individually, who is going to make up the eschatological church in heaven. I believe this is a general citation about the Church as a whole, just as Paul also speaks about Israel that will also "all" be saved. Does this mean every Israelite as WE know it will be saved? No, when the final role call is made, THAT will be "Israel". Same with the "New Israel", the Church. Those present will be able to say "we were predestined, justified, sanctified, glorified"...

And no one else...

But the role call has not been made, and God - while having the "list", the "Book of Life", we don't have access to the names in there right now.

Let’s say of those who hear the word, some will accept it and some will not. Fair enough? Of those who hear the word and accept it, will they all have a conversion? I question this now more than ever. For me the answer is yes, but I can’t speak for all. What do you think?

Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. Some receive God's Word, and SOME have faith in it, for awhile, then it falls away and dies (Luke's version specifically states that). Thus, the question is not "did he ever have it"?, but "why did you lose it"?

Lastly, when you say; “When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today. Why? Because we don't know if we are one of the predestined to eternal life or not.†I think you hit the nail on the head for why some people have such a hard time with this doctrine of predestination. However, there are others, such as myself, who are able to embrace this doctrine. Why is that?

I think there is a fear of being overconfident, which can lead to pride and arrogance and a subsequent falling away. Religious pride is a dangerous thing. Pharisees thought "God owed them", virtually,.. This is not far removed from the OSAS group who write THEIR OWN names into the Book of Life.

Don’t get me wrong, I can accept someone saying they don’t believe it, or understand it. I can not accept someone who says it’s false. I think to say its false is derelict, irresponsible and ignorant. Not saying you would say it’s false, perhaps asking that you don’t for my sake and for the sake of our discussion. I just got done with a mind-numbing discussion on this, and this thread is so far more refreshing. So…that out of the way.

I am confident that as long as I remain in the Lord, He will not pull the rug out from under me. I will go to heaven and am on the road to being one of the predestined to heaven. But I am still "working out my salvation in fear and trembling", because I don't KNOW yet...

I have to disagree that; “When we see verses about predestination, they are not of much value to us today.†To me they are very valuable and back up my faith. I once thought it fit well with every Christian, but I know it does not. I also know that it’s not a deal breaker to our salvation, but how do those who do not believe in predestination and election reconcile it to the whole of scripture when it’s all over the map as we see in Romans 8 and 9?

Interestingly, Catholics have a rather wide range of lattitude on this issue. There are several schools of thought that are not in complete agreement, but are currently acceptable to us. Perhaps the next letter, we can discuss that. I'm a bit rusty on it, it has been quite awhile since I spoke of this subject, it was a much bigger topic at Freerepublic when I was there, and it's been several years...

Regards

 

[Danus]

Danus, I appreciate your honesty in recognizing the power of the argument I am making. But is it necessary in this case to actually name someone personally? It does appear that he is addressing false prophets earlier in the chapter, and other writings of Scriptures verify that this was an issue in the early churches. Thus, Peter's audience was not unique - they also faced false prophets, and thus, it is quite unlikely that he is describing hypotheticals.

Even if he was being hypothetical or didn't have anyone specific in mind, say Simon the Magician, the point is made that there is such a possibility in the Word of God. Peter would not even put such a hypothetical into his writing if it was IMPOSSIBLE, would he?

I would give others the benefit of the doubt when they come to the altar and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior. Do you think it is necessary to await, say, 20 years, to make sure "it sticks"??? It's not necessary to proclaim OSAS but then not really mean it, waiting for the "fall" to cast them out as "never were Christians".

I am not sure I see the significance of knowing the specific heresy before making such a judgment as you are. The point is made, a saved man has fallen into sin again and is worse off than before. Does it matter what the sin was or what the false teaching was?

So you are saying that the church put together a canon that accuses ITSELF of being a false teacher of the faith, knowing that it proclaims to be the "pillar and foundation of the truth" or the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" elsewhere? It seems to me that we have a false teacher who fell away and returned to the vomit of THEIR former life, so how could this be directed at an organization? It seems to be more directed at a person.

I agree that predestination is part of the faith...

Yes, to God, the future IS. Yes. Again, I think that we just don't know specifically, individually, who is going to make up the eschatological church in heaven. I believe this is a general citation about the Church as a whole, just as Paul also speaks about Israel that will also "all" be saved. Does this mean every Israelite as WE know it will be saved? No, when the final role call is made, THAT will be "Israel". Same with the "New Israel", the Church. Those present will be able to say "we were predestined, justified, sanctified, glorified"...

And no one else...

But the role call has not been made, and God - while having the "list", the "Book of Life", we don't have access to the names in there right now.

Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. Some receive God's Word, and SOME have faith in it, for awhile, then it falls away and dies (Luke's version specifically states that). Thus, the question is not "did he ever have it"?, but "why did you lose it"?

I think there is a fear of being overconfident, which can lead to pride and arrogance and a subsequent falling away. Religious pride is a dangerous thing. Pharisees thought "God owed them", virtually,.. This is not far removed from the OSAS group who write THEIR OWN names into the Book of Life.

I am confident that as long as I remain in the Lord, He will not pull the rug out from under me. I will go to heaven and am on the road to being one of the predestined to heaven. But I am still "working out my salvation in fear and trembling", because I don't KNOW yet...

Interestingly, Catholics have a rather wide range of lattitude on this issue. There are several schools of thought that are not in complete agreement, but are currently acceptable to us. Perhaps the next letter, we can discuss that. I'm a bit rusty on it, it has been quite awhile since I spoke of this subject, it was a much bigger topic at Freerepublic when I was there, and it's been several years...

Regards

francisdesales , I like and respect what your saying despite what might be few fundamental differences in our view of salvation. Certainly not enough to charge heresy, but perhaps since our relationship with God is so personal I believe that it’s possible for each man to see their salvation in slightly different measures.

This has, I think, been a rewarding thread to discuss what may be some of the most dangerous ground concerning biblical doctrine.

We are both confident, as you mentioned, that as long as we remain in the lord he will not “pull the rug†out from beneath us. But, it’s interesting how we might see how we remain. Again, I totally respect how you see you’re remaining, and I’d say you’re dead on right in that. Can’t go wrong as long, as you say, you keep on loving the lord.

My experience is a bit different.

I’m a protestant. I can’t speak for others, but I never wanted to have anything to do with Christ. I never set out to be saved. I never really wanted to know God, but yet I do, and now that I do, I don’t want anything less. In fact I will say that I can’t. I can’t even if I tried. I know this because I have.

God has chased me down despite my best efforts. He has ensured my failure on my own, and he’s shown me his blessing in my acceptance of him. Is that pride? It might be seen as such, but I say it with all humility.

I grew up hearing the word, but I willfully rejected it over and over again. I built my own towers in life, and they fell over and over again. I’m convinced they fell at the hand of God until such time as I was completely defeated; enough to say; “OK God…I don’t know you. I don’t know if you’re real or not, but I’m willing to commit all I know and understand of myself to all I know and understand of you. I’m done! I give up myself.â€

That’s how my walk with Christ started, and I don’t think these few words can give it full justice or meaning, but I was the most pathetic baby Christian you’ve ever seen. I was only willing to believe there was a God. That’s where I started. How sad is that? I had half a mustard seed of faith in God and absolutely no faith in myself. Totally Defeated

When I read these verses we’ve discussed, they speak differently to me, and when I read Romans and think of predestination, the elect, and OSAS it makes perfect sense to me. The question I often wrestle with now, is why God would waste his time with the likes of me?

I say this because I feel captured by God. To me I have no choice. I know that seems counter to God in that I seem to be saying I have no free will, but that’s not what I mean.

I can choose death, or God. I mean that literally and metaphorically; physically and spiritually. In my life I’ve only seen those two options. I know that makes me seem overly passionate or even dramatic, but again I say this with all humility.

Does that make me a better Christian? NO. I’m I any more saved? NO. I’m I in the book of life? Yes, but that is not even a thought I carry. I know I am because of the path I can not escape nor want to. I know the extent of my sinfulness and I know the extent of God’s love for me.

When we die; when we go to meet with God face to face, I expect to be judged fully. I make no excuses for myself, nor attempt to cover anything. If God where to ask me why I should be let into his haven I say; you should not, but if there where any reason to do so by what I’ve know to be a merciful loving God, let it only be that I loved your son Jesus Christ and that I accepted the price he paid for my miserable soul, and not for anything I’ve done to earn it.

What I’m saying here should not be confused with a lazed attitude, or lack of fear for God; No, quite the contrary. I have enormous respect and loe for God to the point where, to quote Luther; “My conscious lies with the word of God. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.â€

 

[Elijah674]

--Elijah here: (O.S.A.S or Once Saved Always Saved?)

Man says that God 'promises them liberty' (OSAS is such!) But notice what 'inspiration' through Peter DOCUMENTS:

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: [for whom a man is OVERCOME, of the same IS HE BROUGHT IN BONDAGE.] (see James 1:15--false doctrine would be included as sin when known. 1 John 2:4)

For if [AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTION'S OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST],
(converted & Born Again ones)
they are [AGAIN] entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the LATTER end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it [HAD BEEN] better for [THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. (see Matt. 28:20 for holy commandment!)

But it [IS] happened unto them according to the TRUE PROVERB, (find it in the Word!) the dog IS TURNED to his own VOMIT [AGAIN]; and the sow[THAT WAS WASHED] to her wallowing in the mire."

*Please take note:
There is NO 'atom' of thought from this end that God does not KNOW who will be Saved or Lost. (NONE! OK? See Rom. 4:17's last part)
What GOD does teach the Born Again ones, is that, it is US that do not know what God KNOWS! We have a forbidden tree in the midst of our Born Again 'total' earthly life span! (if one has got far..to the stage of being Born Again in the first place?)

The 'use' of eternal security is true in the GodHeads for/knowledge. But that is not our case. The Bible is FULL of Everlasting Gospel CONDITIONS. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. Promises without giving the conditions to the promise is flawed 1/2 'g'ospel which is just NO GOSPEL!

Some give the sealing of the Holy Spirit with out telling any that God States that one is given the 'EARNEST' of the Holy Spirit. Humanity know where the 'earnest money' of home buying came from. Where there is EARNEST money there is also a CLOSING TIME! Acts 3:19 tells us when this TIME COMES. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins [may be blotted out], (THESE ARE NOW SAVED? NOT YET! THERE IS MORE YET STATED!) [*WHEN THE TIME OF REFRESHING SHALL COME.]"

Now: There are two class only with the Wheat & the Tares. And we do not know their 'minds working' of serving God?? (they grow together for a time) Yet, NEVER ARE WE TOLD THAT OPEN SINNERS ARE EITHER ONE OF THESE TWO CLASS! Here is the group that we are considering, all [CONVERTED ones in OPEN SIN] & when known are to be removed from membership. (Matt. 18:14-18) This is hardly ever done. So we see Rev. 2:5! And then comes the whole folds departure! And then there is Rev. 18:4 to any honest ones that have membership there. These ones who are converted and have a life & death DECISION to make!

Heb. 6:1-6 are ALL MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST! (in past/tense) The Word of God would be violating the TRUTH of 2 Cor. 4:2 if the 'TRUTH' is not Truth. They would be handling the Word of God both "in CRAFTINESS'' or "Dishonestly" if they are 'just barking'---WHICH THEY ARE NOT! Someone else is. (see Gen. 4:7 for whose doctrine OSAS is.)

Inspiration by Paul tells of there being OPEN SIN THAT WILL "CRUCIFY CHRIST AFRESH TO THEMSELVES. AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME." And that these ones were: "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" and "HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT" (Jesus Christ) and "WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST" and HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE *POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME." Powers.. see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:8!

Now for my thing on this OSAS doctrine? It is one of many false doctrines that does more perhaps than any other doctrine to fill hell! Not only this one doctrine, but another that is about as bad, it is the one of a lost sinner burning in a hell fire that never destroys the person! On & on they burn by a OSAS 'false believing FOLD'. See Obad. 16 & Eze.. 18:4 & Eze.. 18:20.

AND BOTTOM LINE: Christ states it VERY PLAINLY that He has His sheep in the wrong FOLD! [SAVED AT PRESENT!] Again Rev. 18:4! Are NOT OSAS!

 

[Danus]

--Elijah here: (O.S.A.S or Once Saved Always Saved?)

Man says that God 'promises them liberty' (OSAS is such!) But notice what 'inspiration' through Peter DOCUMENTS:

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: [for whom a man is OVERCOME, of the same IS HE BROUGHT IN BONDAGE.] (see James 1:15--false doctrine would be included as sin when known. 1 John 2:4)

For if [AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTION'S OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST],
(converted & Born Again ones)
they are [AGAIN] entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the LATTER end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it [HAD BEEN] better for [THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. (see Matt. 28:20 for holy commandment!)

But it [IS] happened unto them according to the TRUE PROVERB, (find it in the Word!) the dog IS TURNED to his own VOMIT [AGAIN]; and the sow[THAT WAS WASHED] to her wallowing in the mire."

*Please take note:
There is NO 'atom' of thought from this end that God does not KNOW who will be Saved or Lost. (NONE! OK? See Rom. 4:17's last part)
What GOD does teach the Born Again ones, is that, it is US that do not know what God KNOWS! We have a forbidden tree in the midst of our Born Again 'total' earthly life span! (if one has got far..to the stage of being Born Again in the first place?)

The 'use' of eternal security is true in the GodHeads for/knowledge. But that is not our case. The Bible is FULL of Everlasting Gospel CONDITIONS. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. Promises without giving the conditions to the promise is flawed 1/2 'g'ospel which is just NO GOSPEL!

Some give the sealing of the Holy Spirit with out telling any that God States that one is given the 'EARNEST' of the Holy Spirit. Humanity know where the 'earnest money' of home buying came from. Where there is EARNEST money there is also a CLOSING TIME! Acts 3:19 tells us when this TIME COMES. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins [may be blotted out], (THESE ARE NOW SAVED? NOT YET! THERE IS MORE YET STATED!) [*WHEN THE TIME OF REFRESHING SHALL COME.]"

Now: There are two class only with the Wheat & the Tares. And we do not know their 'minds working' of serving God?? (they grow together for a time) Yet, NEVER ARE WE TOLD THAT OPEN SINNERS ARE EITHER ONE OF THESE TWO CLASS! Here is the group that we are considering, all [CONVERTED ones in OPEN SIN] & when known are to be removed from membership. (Matt. 18:14-18) This is hardly ever done. So we see Rev. 2:5! And then comes the whole folds departure! And then there is Rev. 18:4 to any honest ones that have membership there. These ones who are converted and have a life & death DECISION to make!

Heb. 6:1-6 are ALL MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST! (in past/tense) The Word of God would be violating the TRUTH of 2 Cor. 4:2 if the 'TRUTH' is not Truth. They would be handling the Word of God both "in CRAFTINESS'' or "Dishonestly" if they are 'just barking'---WHICH THEY ARE NOT! Someone else is. (see Gen. 4:7 for whose doctrine OSAS is.)

Inspiration by Paul tells of there being OPEN SIN THAT WILL "CRUCIFY CHRIST AFRESH TO THEMSELVES. AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME." And that these ones were: "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" and "HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT" (Jesus Christ) and "WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST" and HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE *POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME." Powers.. see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:8!

Now for my thing on this OSAS doctrine? It is one of many false doctrines that does more perhaps than any other doctrine to fill hell! Not only this one doctrine, but another that is about as bad, it is the one of a lost sinner burning in a hell fire that never destroys the person! On & on they burn by a OSAS 'false believing FOLD'. See Obad. 16 & Eze.. 18:4 & Eze.. 18:20.

AND BOTTOM LINE: Christ states it VERY PLAINLY that He has His sheep in the wrong FOLD! [SAVED AT PRESENT!] Again Rev. 18:4! Are NOT OSAS!

Brother, I've no idea quite what your saying. But from what I gather you seem to be looping and connecting OSAS with willful sin. You seem to think that OSAS says believe in God and sin away. You seem to be saying that OSAS says that there are no boundaries to the Christian life and lastly, you seem to be suggesting that those who deny OSAS have escaped sin somehow. If that's the case, I would invite you to look far deeper into what you may no understand, or stick with what you know rather than charge false doctrine within a doctrine that is well established, yet you find threating.

OSAS doctrine and predestination, really has no negative for you if you choose not to believe in it. It really has no barring on your personal salvation or the salvation of those who have a good understanding of it. I'm seeing a lot of junk in your understanding of this type of doctrine that you will have to get rid of if you ever hope to understand it. You'll have to wrestle with it on your own if you want.

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales , I like and respect what your saying despite what might be few fundamental differences in our view of salvation. Certainly not enough to charge heresy, but perhaps since our relationship with God is so personal I believe that it’s possible for each man to see their salvation in slightly different measures.

Danus, I think there is some room to discuss salvation using different terms and variations on a central theme, that those who seek out God in faith and trust will be rewarded with finding Him...

We are both confident, as you mentioned, that as long as we remain in the lord he will not “pull the rug†out from beneath us. But, it’s interesting how we might see how we remain. Again, I totally respect how you see you’re remaining, and I’d say you’re dead on right in that. Can’t go wrong as long, as you say, you keep on loving the lord.

My experience is a bit different.

I’m a protestant. I can’t speak for others, but I never wanted to have anything to do with Christ. I never set out to be saved. I never really wanted to know God, but yet I do, and now that I do, I don’t want anything less. In fact I will say that I can’t. I can’t even if I tried. I know this because I have.

God has chased me down despite my best efforts. He has ensured my failure on my own, and he’s shown me his blessing in my acceptance of him. Is that pride? It might be seen as such, but I say it with all humility.

I think many people have such experiences, where they sense God pursuing them. There certainly is room for judging our own subjective views on how we first come to Christ. In the end, I think, looking back, most will say that God was guiding me the whole time, whether I felt, at the time, that I was actively looking, or whether I felt that it just happened with little to do on my part. I think those who begin to pursue God and faith usually do so first on the intellectual side. They read and read, think and read other person's writings on such matters. But at the end of the day, this "work" is merely preparation for an experience that we all agree comes from God alone.

So whether I pursue God via long intellectual preparation, like myself, or whether God "pops out of the blue", I think each person will experience some manner of first "contact" with the Other that Is.

I grew up hearing the word, but I willfully rejected it over and over again. I built my own towers in life, and they fell over and over again. I’m convinced they fell at the hand of God until such time as I was completely defeated; enough to say; “OK God…I don’t know you. I don’t know if you’re real or not, but I’m willing to commit all I know and understand of myself to all I know and understand of you. I’m done! I give up myself.â€

That’s how my walk with Christ started, and I don’t think these few words can give it full justice or meaning, but I was the most pathetic baby Christian you’ve ever seen. I was only willing to believe there was a God. That’s where I started. How sad is that? I had half a mustard seed of faith in God and absolutely no faith in myself. Totally Defeated

Understood. It is not an easy path, to recognize that our plans are nothing compared to God's. It is recognizing the failure of our plans as part of God's plan that makes the difference in conversion. This frustration of failure does not always lead to an acceptance that God is behind it or leading it or directing it to Him. Thus, I believe that there is also some sort of preparation where God allows us to recognize BOTH, our failures and why we are failing...

When I read these verses we’ve discussed, they speak differently to me, and when I read Romans and think of predestination, the elect, and OSAS it makes perfect sense to me. The question I often wrestle with now, is why God would waste his time with the likes of me?

LOL! Would you say God wasted His time with Hitler or Stalin? I think God loves, no matter who the person, I would even go so far to say God loves Satan. The sad part, from my paradigm, is that God's love is so wonderful that it is bound to leave Him "disappointed", if I could say that about a transcendent God who needs nothing from us. But He does DESIRE that we be saved and return His love to Him. His desire for our response can be defeated, since that is part of the price one pays when they love - the possibility of being rejected by the beloved.

So, as I see it, God is not "wasting" any time on any of us, His love is His nature, which goes out to all men. That men can reject God does not make His love any less or wasted, my friend.

I say this because I feel captured by God. To me I have no choice. I know that seems counter to God in that I seem to be saying I have no free will, but that’s not what I mean.

Ah, I see things a bit differently because I view God FIRST as Trinity. God cannot but help to Love, since God is first Love. This love pours Itself out beyond It's Own Self, beginning with Creation itself. With this background, I hope you can understand why WE don't feel "captured", per sec, but that God gives Himself to us that we may give ourselves to Him. This is love - to give of oneself to the other. Love is the paradigm, not capturing someone from disaster or evil, necessarily. God gives us a choice, to be with Him and love Him in return, or separation from Love Itself.

Does that make me a better Christian? NO. I’m I any more saved? NO. I’m I in the book of life? Yes, but that is not even a thought I carry. I know I am because of the path I can not escape nor want to. I know the extent of my sinfulness and I know the extent of God’s love for me.

I believe God knows who is in the book of life and that men have the potential to be erased from that book, such as Jesus' warning in Revelation. I don't see it as an impossibility to "escape", because I am freely given the choice to "escape" God's Love. That's the point of free will, that I can willingly leave God. However, once enlightened, etc., as in 2 peter, what are the chances of such a thing? Here and in Hebrews, it seems that the writers are almost amazed or surprised that someone MAY leave God and that life prepared for us. It is surprise, but there is an acceptance of that possibility, undeniable by the evidence of particular false teachers who HAD been in the "book", had escaped the clutches of sin, had called upon Jesus, etc... but RETURNED to a life of sin. "HOW COULD THEY", you hear in the writing?

But there it is. It is possible.

When we die; when we go to meet with God face to face, I expect to be judged fully. I make no excuses for myself, nor attempt to cover anything. If God where to ask me why I should be let into his haven I say; you should not, but if there where any reason to do so by what I’ve know to be a merciful loving God, let it only be that I loved your son Jesus Christ and that I accepted the price he paid for my miserable soul, and not for anything I’ve done to earn it.

Good answer, and as long as a person maintains that faith and responded to it with a living faith in this life, than we trust in the promise that God has given to those who obey Him. This is the Covenant promised, and we are certain that God will not change His mind later. God doesn't owe us, but He has promised us, and He is a righteous God Whom we can count on trusting His promises.

What I’m saying here should not be confused with a lazed attitude, or lack of fear for God; No, quite the contrary. I have enormous respect and love for God to the point where, to quote Luther; “My conscious lies with the word of God. Here I stand. I can do noother. God help me.â€

"Jesus, my Lord and Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner". repeat as often as possible, daily...!

Regards

 

[HisSheep]

I’m a protestant. I can’t speak for others, but I never wanted to have anything to do with Christ. I never set out to be saved. I never really wanted to know God, but yet I do, and now that I do, I don’t want anything less. In fact I will say that I can’t. I can’t even if I tried. I know this because I have.

God has chased me down despite my best efforts. He has ensured my failure on my own, and he’s shown me his blessing in my acceptance of him. Is that pride? It might be seen as such, but I say it with all humility.

I grew up hearing the word, but I willfully rejected it over and over again. I built my own towers in life, and they fell over and over again. I’m convinced they fell at the hand of God until such time as I was completely defeated; enough to say; “OK God…I don’t know you. I don’t know if you’re real or not, but I’m willing to commit all I know and understand of myself to all I know and understand of you. I’m done! I give up myself.â€...

...What I’m saying here should not be confused with a lazed attitude, or lack of fear for God; No, quite the contrary. I have enormous respect and love for God to the point where, to quote Luther; “My conscious lies with the word of God. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.â€

How many Amen's can I add here?

This sounds so much like my own experience that I may might have written it myself. It's awsome to hear someone else with the same sort of conversion experience, thanks Danus.

This kind of conversion lends itself to a predestination viewpoint.

-HisSheep

 

[jasoncran]

when i repented, i was full of self and didnt believe in the lord, let alone want to serve him. i was raised a jw, yes, but as i went away from that i grew more into a new age view of things.no one religion was better then other. all had some truth.

 

[Elijah674]

--Elijah here: (O.S.A.S or Once Saved Always Saved?)

Man says that God 'promises them liberty' (OSAS is such!) But notice what 'inspiration' through Peter DOCUMENTS:

"While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: [for whom a man is OVERCOME, of the same IS HE BROUGHT IN BONDAGE.] (see James 1:15--false doctrine would be included as sin when known. 1 John 2:4)

For if [AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTION'S OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST],
(converted & Born Again ones)
they are [AGAIN] entangled therein, and OVERCOME, the LATTER end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it [HAD BEEN] better for [THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. (see Matt. 28:20 for holy commandment!)

But it [IS] happened unto them according to the TRUE PROVERB, (find it in the Word!) the dog IS TURNED to his own VOMIT [AGAIN]; and the sow[THAT WAS WASHED] to her wallowing in the mire."

*Please take note:
There is NO 'atom' of thought from this end that God does not KNOW who will be Saved or Lost. (NONE! OK? See Rom. 4:17's last part)
What GOD does teach the Born Again ones, is that, it is US that do not know what God KNOWS! We have a forbidden tree in the midst of our Born Again 'total' earthly life span! (if one has got far..to the stage of being Born Again in the first place?)

The 'use' of eternal security is true in the GodHeads for/knowledge. But that is not our case. The Bible is FULL of Everlasting Gospel CONDITIONS. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. Promises without giving the conditions to the promise is flawed 1/2 'g'ospel which is just NO GOSPEL!

Some give the sealing of the Holy Spirit with out telling any that God States that one is given the 'EARNEST' of the Holy Spirit. Humanity know where the 'earnest money' of home buying came from. Where there is EARNEST money there is also a CLOSING TIME! Acts 3:19 tells us when this TIME COMES. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins [may be blotted out], (THESE ARE NOW SAVED? NOT YET! THERE IS MORE YET STATED!) [*WHEN THE TIME OF REFRESHING SHALL COME.]"

Now: There are two class only with the Wheat & the Tares. And we do not know their 'minds working' of serving God?? (they grow together for a time) Yet, NEVER ARE WE TOLD THAT OPEN SINNERS ARE EITHER ONE OF THESE TWO CLASS! Here is the group that we are considering, all [CONVERTED ones in OPEN SIN] & when known are to be removed from membership. (Matt. 18:14-18) This is hardly ever done. So we see Rev. 2:5! And then comes the whole folds departure! And then there is Rev. 18:4 to any honest ones that have membership there. These ones who are converted and have a life & death DECISION to make!

Heb. 6:1-6 are ALL MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST! (in past/tense) The Word of God would be violating the TRUTH of 2 Cor. 4:2 if the 'TRUTH' is not Truth. They would be handling the Word of God both "in CRAFTINESS'' or "Dishonestly" if they are 'just barking'---WHICH THEY ARE NOT! Someone else is. (see Gen. 4:7 for whose doctrine OSAS is.)

Inspiration by Paul tells of there being OPEN SIN THAT WILL "CRUCIFY CHRIST AFRESH TO THEMSELVES. AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME." And that these ones were: "ONCE ENLIGHTENED" and "HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT" (Jesus Christ) and "WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST" and HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE *POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME." Powers.. see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:8!

Now for my thing on this OSAS doctrine? It is one of many false doctrines that does more perhaps than any other doctrine to fill hell! Not only this one doctrine, but another that is about as bad, it is the one of a lost sinner burning in a hell fire that never destroys the person! On & on they burn by a OSAS 'false believing FOLD'. See Obad. 16 & Eze.. 18:4 & Eze.. 18:20.

AND BOTTOM LINE: Christ states it VERY PLAINLY that He has His sheep in the wrong FOLD! [SAVED AT PRESENT!] Again Rev. 18:4! Are NOT OSAS!

Me again: This post is nothing personal. I do not doubt anyones personal Rom. 8:1's [IN CHRIST] & [WITHOUT CONDEMNATION]! But there is a verse 14 that is not FINISHED YET!

And how long had the Rev. 17:1-5 one's, along with the Rev. 3:16-17 ones, 'had some LOVE' turn Lukewarm and be SPEWED OUT? It appears that they had made a promising start and stayed where they became members of. (No Hosea 4:6) The Daughters of the Great Whore had their starting point well in the reformation, & now are long past the Striving of the Holy Spirits for advancement. Unless you dis/agree with the Word of God that they are the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH???

OK: Surely there are Christ's VERY OWN STILL IN THEIR MEMBERSHIP. And many have died who lived what they believed to be Truth who will be in the First Resurection Saved. But it is FATAL today to remain there according to the Godheads Word of Rev. 18:4. Not only old, old, false doctrine still being taught, but also all of this OPEN DOCUMENTED Filth! When this documented stuff that one reads daily & is seen daily of T.V. & one finds God telling us that we are PARTAKERS by just supporting it by Church membership + tithe + offerings we best see as God WARNS us! (compare Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse. Who Believes God?)

 

[jasoncran]

elijah, are you catholic?

 

[Vic C.]

elijah, are you catholic?

Uh oh! LOL

 

[Danus]

I’m a protestant. I can’t speak for others, but I never wanted to have anything to do with Christ. I never set out to be saved. I never really wanted to know God, but yet I do, and now that I do, I don’t want anything less. In fact I will say that I can’t. I can’t even if I tried. I know this because I have.

God has chased me down despite my best efforts. He has ensured my failure on my own, and he’s shown me his blessing in my acceptance of him. Is that pride? It might be seen as such, but I say it with all humility.

I grew up hearing the word, but I willfully rejected it over and over again. I built my own towers in life, and they fell over and over again. I’m convinced they fell at the hand of God until such time as I was completely defeated; enough to say; “OK God…I don’t know you. I don’t know if you’re real or not, but I’m willing to commit all I know and understand of myself to all I know and understand of you. I’m done! I give up myself.â€...

...What I’m saying here should not be confused with a lazed attitude, or lack of fear for God; No, quite the contrary. I have enormous respect and love for God to the point where, to quote Luther; “My conscious lies with the word of God. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.â€

How many Amen's can I add here?

This sounds so much like my own experience that I may might have written it myself. It's awsome to hear someone else with the same sort of conversion experience, thanks Danus.

This kind of conversion lends itself to a predestination viewpoint.

-HisSheep

I think you are correct Hissheep. For those like us, maybe God makes it easier in saying door #1 or door #2
I'm not the smartest man on the planet, and frankly I'm still surprised when I find I'm not the least intelligent, but I'm often amazed of how God's word speaks to every man regardless.

I think the biggest difference is often found in interpretations and definitions, but for those who've spent time in the word and communing with God it just seems that the conclusions are often the same even though God seems to get to us in different ways.

I can clearly see francisdesales point of view as well. We can, and should all be brothers in Christ for the grater cause of fellowship and spreading the word as well as building each other up, by recognizing the gifts, talents, experiences and training we can borrow from each other as members of the same team.

That's what makes a forum like this one so rewarding.

 

[francisdesales]

I can clearly see francisdesales point of view as well. We can, and should all be brothers in Christ for the grater cause of fellowship and spreading the word as well as building each other up, by recognizing the gifts, talents, experiences and training we can borrow from each other as members of the same team.

That's what makes a forum like this one so rewarding.

There you go, Danus. At the end of the day, us Christians should be building up the Body, realizing that despite some disagreements, we should realize we are more or less on the same side vs the "world". Disagreements on predestination shouldn't tear us apart.

Are we for Christ or against Him? Our actions, not just cliche proclamations, will be the judge, and yours is a good example of how we should discuss issues here.

Brother in Christ

 

[emptytomb]

I started reading this topic from the beginning and found it to be going in circles. There alot of good points here by both sides. Although I don't like being labelled as one thing in doctrinal divisions. I find myself believing in one way predominantly. In how I became a believer in the first place by faith, going against it would nulify the faith that Jesus has given me. Whether one side is totally wrong or right, I cannot say. I truly believe that everyone is on their own path of knowing Christ, and it is up to the spirit to change anyone's mind. If we truly apply what Jesus is revealing to us, we will prove what is truth. That is why we live this life, to be approved apart from the world. So brothers and sisters let the light shine, however way Jesus has revealed himself to you. Of course anything not of scripture cannot be of the truth.

Jesus Bless!

Emptytomb

 

[Elijah674]

Yes Lord, some 'few' can still see, that these ones CANNOT SEE. (1 John 4:6)

Rev.17
[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF {{HARLOTS}} AND [[ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.]]

 

[HisSheep]

Now for my thing on this OSAS doctrine? It is one of many false doctrines that does more perhaps than any other doctrine to fill hell! Not only this one doctrine, but another that is about as bad, it is the one of a lost sinner burning in a hell fire that never destroys the person! On & on they burn by a OSAS 'false believing FOLD'. See Obad. 16 & Eze.. 18:4 & Eze.. 18:20.

As has been mentioned by others, this doctrine shouldn’t bring the faithful to blows. It is not determinate of salvation. It merely describes how we think God is working in salvation.

Any honest person must admit there is compelling scripture to support both views; but all things are ordained by God.

Certainly, I don’t think the doctrine of election fills hell! as Elijah674 asserts. God will not be the least bit disappointed when He’s done – that much is made very clear to us. God is all-knowing. Thus, He knows who will be in Heaven with Him and He will not be surprised in any way at the outcome of things. This understanding alone gets you halfway to accepting predestination.

I am always taken aback by the anger that the mention of the assurance of salvation rouses in people. Christians should be permitted and encouraged to boldly walk their walk in confidence, in peace, and without fear. These are the benefits to the believer which the Bible says we may enjoy right now. They help us to persevere and evangelize. Who wants us living in fear that the devil may snatch us away (against God’s will) with his guile? Who wants us to think that our tribulations are of the devil? Who wants us to think that the devil is any challenge to God whatsoever?

There is simply nothing God doesn’t control, ordain, and foreknow - Satan included.

Those to whom God doesn’t reveal Himself were ordained to their fate by God. Even though they make the choice for themselves, they always will make the wrong choice without the Spirit’s intervention. We are to thank God in and for all things, even for the unbelief of others. How else could Jesus have prayed thus?

Luke 10:
21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
22"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Try suggesting that your congregation recite that little prayer on Sunday – see where that gets you. :o Some of Jesus' words are more popular than others: Lord's Prayer - Yes. Luke 10:21-22 - We can't add that to the service!...

From this, we can conclude that the only people “in the know†are God, Jesus, and those who have been granted faith… A.K.A. The elect. It also makes clear that the truth which God reveals to some He actually hides from others. It isn’t that He can’t reach these people (He is all-powerful, remember). He intentionally excludes them. That is His will, whether it makes sense to us or not.

Jesus and I praise Him for it.

-HisSheep

 

[jasoncran]

when i didnt believe in eternal security, i didnt walk in fear either, assurance is necessary as we need to be bold when defending the faith.

 

[HisSheep]

Jasoncran, could you please clarify?

Maybe there's a typo?

Maybe it's just me.

-HisSheep