Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

Rom9:11-22
The potter does what he wants with the clay.
I trust a perfectly Holy and just God that he will Do Right?
GEN.18:25
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

But your theology accuses Him of doing wrong. That is the problem. Shifting the discussion about your theology to your personal beliefs is just throwing chaff. No one is discussing your personal opinion. That is not in question. The post is your theology accuses him of doing what is wrong. This is what we are discussing.

What you have in the statements of faith is contradictory points that cannot both be true. We are likely not to get beyond this one. They are contradictory and that is a fact. No Calvinists can explain them making them not contradictory. They just learn to accept it turning off that part of the mind that sees the contradictory nature of the statements.

As I said before, the best test is when a calvinist who accused God of bringing about, being behind, etc words, moral evil is asked before the accused (God) exactly what more evil did He bring about. This is very real. Paul was constantly aware that one day he would stand before God and give an answer as to the deeds done in the body both good and bad. He did not think God was behind both of those kinds of choices.

 

[Iconoclast]

But your theology accuses Him of doing wrong. That is the problem. Shifting the discussion about your theology to your personal beliefs is just throwing chaff. No one is discussing your personal opinion. That is not in question. The post is your theology accuses him of doing what is wrong. This is what we are discussing.

What you have in the statements of faith is contradictory points that cannot both be true. We are likely not to get beyond this one. They are contradictory and that is a fact. No Calvinists can explain them making them not contradictory. They just learn to accept it turning off that part of the mind that sees the contradictory nature of the statements.

As I said before, the best test is when a calvinist who accused God of bringing about, being behind, etc words, moral evil is asked before the accused (God) exactly what more evil did He bring about. This is very real. Paul was constantly aware that one day he would stand before God and give an answer as to the deeds done in the body both good and bad. He did not think God was behind both of those kinds of choices.

Not at all. You are suggesting God did not know what sin is? or what evil is?
Where did sin and evil come from?

Explain these verses DM;

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
isa457 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not at all.

Yes, quite clearly. Now you ought to go one and say how your theology isn’t doing this in a valid intellectual exchange.

You are suggesting God did not know what sin is?

Chaff. Not a part of this discussion and and accusation. Are you going to show where your theology doesn’t do as suggested?

or what evil is?
Where did sin and evil come from?

Same place good comes from. Read what Free wrote. God didn’t create non-material matters such as honesty and kindness and good and the absence of the above.

Explain these verses DM;

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Did God poof “create” the idea of evil at that moment which did not exist anywhere in the world before that trumpet blast? Man should have never invented trumpets and we’d all have had a better world.

But seriously, is that your position? No evil was ever done before that moment.

isa457 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

What is the opposite of peace? Do evil people have no peace? Are those opposites? Can one do evil
and enjoy peace?

The opposite of peace is calamity. The Hebrew word means calamity. People don’t experience peace while they are having very bad times personally.

Something occurred to me. I’ve yet to hear those who insist God is behind/created/ brings about moral evil actually stands on that theology when they answer problems others are having when bad has happened to them. I mean, no Calvinists says to someone suffering “God created this evil you are suffering so what can you do?”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There’s a new thread “I hate myself” and I’m wondering if any of the proponents of the Westminister Confession believe it so strongly that they would advise that poor suffering soul based on that and if that would look like this,

Dear One, I can understand your fear and sufferings. But you can be encouraged to know that if God has chosen you from the foundation of the world for Heaven, you cannot miss. That you feel bad means you are likely chosen. So don’t worry, doesn’t really matter what sin you do as far as going to Heaven goes. You’ll feel better if you don’t sin so much but you’re already doing that.

However, no calvinist besides me will tell you this but the reverse is also true. If you aren’t chosen for Heaven, there’s nothing you can do about it. All the prayers in the world, even those of Jesus, won’t help. So enjoy life while you can. Your eternal destiny is set in stone before you were born anyway.

What about the above do the reformed theology adherents not believe and why? I know why they won’t say that to anyone. It’s obvious.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom9:11-22
The potter does what he wants with the clay.
I trust a perfectly Holy and just God that he will Do Right?
GEN.18:25
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

You could tell me the potter could do what He wants to and even though it's unjust you could trust God.

I can't trust an unjust God.
He would not be trustable.
In the letter to Timothy Paul states that God will remain faithful to Himself. This means that God cannot be separated from His nature.

If God has an unjust NATURE, why should we trust anything He says?

Happily Romans 9 is about Israel and the Gentiles.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You could tell me the potter could do what He wants to and even though it's unjust you could trust God.

I can't trust an unjust God.
He would not be trustable.
In the letter to Timothy Paul states that God will remain faithful to Himself. This means that God cannot be separated from His nature.

If God has an unjust NATURE, why should we trust anything He says?

If we read the potter and the clay account, God is specifically talking about nations regarding their evil or not ways. He is not at all referring to individuals and no where close to eternal destinies. He is not manipulating individuals so they make it to Heaven. So I agree with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we read the potter and the clay account, God is specifically talking about nations regarding their evil or not ways. He is not at all referring to individuals and no where close to eternal destinies. He is not manipulating individuals so they make it to Heaven. So I agree with you.

Thing is, people will believe what they believe.
I'm not a scholar and don't expect anyone to adapt to my beliefs, but I can't tell you how many times I've posted material regarding Romans 9, 10 and 11. I wonder if it's even read.

So nice to hear from someone that knows it's about God's dealing with nations!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thing is, people will believe what they believe.

I know this a very popular thing to say but it really doesn’t say anything. It would be better to say some people will choose to believe what suits them regardless of scripture or logic. Few seek truth.

I'm not a scholar and don't expect anyone to adapt to my beliefs, but I can't tell you how many times I've posted material regarding Romans 9, 10 and 11. I wonder if it's even read.

So nice to hear from someone that knows it's about God's dealing with nations!

Me too!! I’ve enjoyed interacting with you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, quite clearly. Now you ought to go one and say how your theology isn’t doing this in a valid intellectual exchange.

Chaff. Not a part of this discussion and and accusation. Are you going to show where your theology doesn’t do as suggested?

Same place good comes from. Read what Free wrote. God didn’t create non-material matters such as honesty and kindness and good and the absence of the above.

Did God poof “create” the idea of evil at that moment which did not exist anywhere in the world before that trumpet blast? Man should have never invented trumpets and we’d all have had a better world.

But seriously, is that your position? No evil was ever done before that moment.

What is the opposite of peace? Do evil people have no peace? Are those opposites? Can one do evil
and enjoy peace?

The opposite of peace is calamity. The Hebrew word means calamity. People don’t experience peace while they are having very bad times personally.

Something occurred to me. I’ve yet to hear those who insist God is behind/created/ brings about moral evil actually stands on that theology when they answer problems others are having when bad has happened to them. I mean, no Calvinists says to someone suffering “God created this evil you are suffering so what can you do?”

We do not blame God for man's sin. Your philosophy does that. Your wording prevents a discussion as you sidestep the answers offered. Amos is not talking about "creating evil, so your answer is no answer at all , is it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Thing is, people will believe what they believe.
I'm not a scholar and don't expect anyone to adapt to my beliefs, but I can't tell you how many times I've posted material regarding Romans 9, 10 and 11. I wonder if it's even read.

So nice to hear from someone that knows it's about God's dealing with nations!

God was dealing with nations in the to. Romans 9 is not doing that. This is a common excuse to avoid individual election unto salvation.
Paul is not repeating the OT. texts on the nations in Romans 9.
You are looking for excuses, not answers.

 

[Iconoclast]

If we read the potter and the clay account, God is specifically talking about nations regarding their evil or not ways. He is not at all referring to individuals and no where close to eternal destinies. He is not manipulating individuals so they make it to Heaven. So I agree with you.

False. See post 190. To make such a statement demonstrates no understanding of the discussion in Romans at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

You could tell me the potter could do what He wants to and even though it's unjust you could trust God.

I can't trust an unjust God.
He would not be trustable.
In the letter to Timothy Paul states that God will remain faithful to Himself. This means that God cannot be separated from His nature.

If God has an unjust NATURE, why should we trust anything He says?

Happily Romans 9 is about Israel and the Gentiles.

You believe what you want.I do not blame God for man's sin as you two do.. At least we are clear about where we stand

 

[Iconoclast]

There’s a new thread “I hate myself” and I’m wondering if any of the proponents of the Westminister Confession believe it so strongly that they would advise that poor suffering soul based on that and if that would look like this,

Dear One, I can understand your fear and sufferings. But you can be encouraged to know that if God has chosen you from the foundation of the world for Heaven, you cannot miss. That you feel bad means you are likely chosen. So don’t worry, doesn’t really matter what sin you do as far as going to Heaven goes. You’ll feel better if you don’t sin so much but you’re already doing that.

However, no calvinist besides me will tell you this but the reverse is also true. If you aren’t chosen for Heaven, there’s nothing you can do about it. All the prayers in the world, even those of Jesus, won’t help. So enjoy life while you can. Your eternal destiny is set in stone before you were born anyway.

What about the above do the reformed theology adherents not believe and why? I know why they won’t say that to anyone. It’s obvious.

I have had no trouble presenting the truth of God to people evangelistically for over 40 years now.
Your caricature will not get it done however, but if that is what floats your boat, so be it.

 

[Iconoclast]

But your theology accuses Him of doing wrong. That is the problem. Shifting the discussion about your theology to your personal beliefs is just throwing chaff. No one is discussing your personal opinion. That is not in question. The post is your theology accuses him of doing what is wrong. This is what we are discussing.

What you have in the statements of faith is contradictory points that cannot both be true. We are likely not to get beyond this one. They are contradictory and that is a fact. No Calvinists can explain them making them not contradictory. They just learn to accept it turning off that part of the mind that sees the contradictory nature of the statements.

As I said before, the best test is when a calvinist who accused God of bringing about, being behind, etc words, moral evil is asked before the accused (God) exactly what more evil did He bring about. This is very real. Paul was constantly aware that one day he would stand before God and give an answer as to the deeds done in the body both good and bad. He did not think God was behind both of those kinds of choices.

Calvinists answer correctly.You two reject truth and turn to error, does not mean you now blame Calvinists, it means you welcome error.

 

[jasonc]

You could tell me the potter could do what He wants to and even though it's unjust you could trust God.

I can't trust an unjust God.
He would not be trustable.
In the letter to Timothy Paul states that God will remain faithful to Himself. This means that God cannot be separated from His nature.

If God has an unjust NATURE, why should we trust anything He says?

Happily Romans 9 is about Israel and the Gentiles.

Do arminists teach we have the power to control everything thing happens to us ? That we can tell our heart to beat faster and to slow down

What death we will die from ? How many kids ,the jobs we retire from ?

That God waits until we pray when he already knows if we pray and when and the need?

 

[Iconoclast]

12 Reasons Romans 9 is About Individual Election

Much theological debate centers around the doctrine of election. No one debates whether election is biblical, but they do debate the meaning of election. I believe in what is called unconditional i…

credohouse.org

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We do not blame God for man's sin.

No, your theology does that and I can prove it,

Your philosophy does that.

Prove it!!!

Your wording prevents a discussion as you sidestep the answers offered.

No, you do that. I ask you to
prove your claims. You throw chaff.

Amos is not talking about "creating evil, so your answer is no answer at all , is it?

You said he was.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

False. See post 190. To make such a statement demonstrates no understanding of the discussion in Romans at all.

Ah, the typical personal attack! It’s the “if you don’t agree with me you have NO KNOWLEDGE which is a fruit of your theology. That is not my position but yours. I have talked to enough people with your theology and that is the typical attitude to include Calvin himself who had theological opponents burned at the stake. That’s a fact, not an attack. Let’s quit for now. I see that this will be your response to any challenging input.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ah, the typical personal attack! It’s the “if you don’t agree with me you have NO KNOWLEDGE which is a fruit of your theology. That is not my position but yours. I have talked to enough people with your theology and that is the typical attitude to include Calvin himself who had theological opponents burned at the stake. That’s a fact, not an attack. Let’s quit for now. I see that this will be your response to any challenging input.

No attack at all, just a spot-on observation. We offered our ideas, and rather than answering, you avoid the questions.I and other Calvinists are not going to respond or defend false caricatures that we do not believe, and are not close to the truth?
We can let the reader decide.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do arminists teach we have the power to control everything thing happens to us ? That we can tell our heart to beat faster and to slow down

What death we will die from ? How many kids ,the jobs we retire from ?

That God waits until we pray when he already knows if we pray and when and the need?

Whoever stated any such belief??
And Armenians are not the opposite of calvinists.