Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[for_his_glory]

timing is where i stand to many lay ground rules to his coming . i do not the southern baptist hold to pre trib before any tribulation starts . mean like david jeremiah have books on it . i consider my self more of a pan millennialism . stay with the Lord it will all pan out . there are Postmillennialists Amillennialism Premillennialists just like with tribulation . i like the song when the trumpet sounds well be called away . i want my ears tuned to the sound. my eyes to the sky every eye shall see him even those who pierced his side { rejected him}

And there is nothing wrong with that especially if you are not called to be a teacher or preacher, but it is good to study so you will not be deceived by all the false teachings that are out there. We are all waiting and looking for that day of God's timing and we need to be prepared to be His own when He does return as we are all called as a servant to God as Jesus is a servant to us.

 

[JLB]

timing is where i stand to many lay ground rules to his coming .

Amen.

I agree, the timing of His coming lays a solid foundation to build our understanding upon.


The disciples asked the right question.

The Olivet Discourse is Jesus answering that question, and giving us the signs that preceded His coming.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3

• Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming...

• Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mathew 24:29-31



JLB

 

[dianegcook]

If you read the full context from vs. 11-21 you will understand vs.18 is speaking about the fowls (birds) that fly in the midst of heaven, (first heaven being the atmosphere) as the angel standing in the sun says, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

The supper is not the wedding supper but that of the fowls of the heaven coming down to eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great that are slain by Christ after He cast the beast and its false prophet alive into the lake of fire. These are they who have always followed after the beast out of the sea that Christ will destroy.

Thus, there is no more flesh...that was my point. Flesh of all men, means that.
Thus, all in spirit during the 1000 year reign.

 

[dianegcook]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Read all of Ezekiel chapter 18.

Nowhere in scripture does it say our soul is immortal. The soul is not immortal but mortal being made alive by the very breath of God, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. The soul is either subjected to God's righteousness and will live for eternity in the kingdom of God or the soul rejects God's righteousness and will die, meaning being eternally separated from God and His kingdom to come.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our spirit can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment on the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40. We only receive immortality when Christ returns if we are that of God's righteousness, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Job 4:15 Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: 16 It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, 17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

It says mortal man as a mortal man will physically die as it's only when we are changed to our new glorified bodies is when we become immortal as we are raised from the grave when Christ returns.

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Only Christ is immortal in His glorified body as we will be someday when Christ returns and sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all of us to Him that are His own, Matthew 24:29-31.

That is another subject, which I will pass on.
Just one thing..
John 3:16 is speaking of immortality and mortal souls.
Matt.10:28 as you stated.

Either way, this physical body will die, thus mortal.
Your flesh thus can't have immortality.
So, I would think it speaks of our soul, spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is another subject, which I will pass on.
Just one thing..
John 3:16 is speaking of immortality and mortal souls.
Matt.10:28 as you stated.

Either way, this physical body will die, thus mortal.
Your flesh thus can't have immortality.
So, I would think it speaks of our soul, spirit.

Yes, this is another topic so I will pass on this too.

Love ya sis and always enjoy our discussions

 

[jerry63935]

Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul

i have to disagree what is damaging to our soul is preaching another Gospel and another Jesus . as i stood before the sunday school class this morning. i explained to them there personal belief of end time prophecy belongs to them...pre tribbers are just as saved just as filled as those who are mid and after tribulation . i mean no disrespect but if i am not mistaken we are to promote unity . i have a brother who is pretrib been preaching forwell over 30 years probably more close to 40. the church i attend the pastor does not believe Christ will return and set foot on earth . i cant say i agree with him.but i respect his view.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thus, there is no more flesh...that was my point. Flesh of all men, means that.
Thus, all in spirit during the 1000 year reign.

The way I read and understand Rev 19:11-21 it is after the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returns and all those world/nation leaders that followed after the beast are slain by Jesus as He then calls the fowls of the air to come and feast on their flesh. This is all done while Jesus is still in the air before He plants His feet on the Mt of Olives.

We are caught up to Jesus during this time to meet Him while He is in the air and will return to Earth with Him when He plants His feet on the Mt of Olives, but yet their are many that are not of Christ still alive here on earth at that time as I explained in post #102.

 

[JLB]

i have to disagree what is damaging to our soul is preaching another Gospel and another Jesus .

I agree that preaching another Gospel and another Jesus is indeed damaging to our soul.


However, please consider that teaching another doctrine other than what Jesus taught is also damaging to both those teaching and those who are being taught.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God

I’m not saying you are doing this, as we are only discussing our perspective.


However, there are those who teach false doctrine, of which the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is one of them.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

i have to disagree what is damaging to our soul is preaching another Gospel and another Jesus . as i stood before the sunday school class this morning. i explained to them there personal belief of end time prophecy belongs to them...pre tribbers are just as saved just as filled as those who are mid and after tribulation . i mean no disrespect but if i am not mistaken we are to promote unity . i have a brother who is pretrib been preaching forwell over 30 years probably more close to 40. the church i attend the pastor does not believe Christ will return and set foot on earth . i cant say i agree with him.but i respect his view.

I never said pretrib believers are not saved as our unity is in Christ by God's grace and our belief and faith in Him. What we understand or don't understand has no affect on that as no one can snatch us out of His hands.

What I am trying to bring to light is that this being a false teaching that only began in the early 1800's and not found in scripture that even if they believe in pretrib it could be detrimental to some when they see the beginning of the tribulations God starts pouring out into the earth. This will cause a great falling away as they believed a lie and when the false Christ comes on the scene many will bow down and worship him thinking he is Christ taking its mark believing he is Christ. Read more about this in Matthew 24:23-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

I too once believed in a pretrib for quite a few years until one day it hit me that what they teach is not found in the scriptures. I thought it was just me not understanding the scriptures they use and just took it for granted for after all they are Pastors. They use Rev 4:1 as one of their proof scriptures and the more I read it over and over it says nothing about any pretrib rapture of the Church. That's when I started praying and searching the scriptures and found nothing that even remotely mentions pretrib or even midtrib. It has taken me many years to put all this together and still working on it.

 

[dianegcook]

Yes, this is another topic so I will pass on this too.

Love ya sis and always enjoy our discussions

Same here,

Have you been camping lately?

 

[jerry63935]

What I am trying to bring to light is that this being a false teaching that only began in the early 1800's and not found in scripture that even if they believe in pretrib it could be detrimental to some when they see the beginning of the tribulations God starts pouring out into the earth. This will cause a great falling away as they believed a lie and when the false Christ comes on the scene many will bow down and worship him thinking he is Christ taking its mark believing he is Christ. Read more about this in Matthew 24:23-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

if false hope in pre trib causes some one to fall away . i have doubts they was ever saved

 

[JLB]

This will cause a great falling away as they believed a lie and when the false Christ comes on the scene many will bow down and worship him thinking he is Christ taking its mark believing he is Christ.

Amen.

Which would be detrimental and damaging to our soul.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Same here,

Have you been camping lately?

We want to get one more trip in before we have to winterize the camper. Just have to decide where to go. Campgrounds usually start closing in October.

 

[for_his_glory]

if false hope in pre trib causes some one to fall away . i have doubts they was ever saved

It's only those who endure until the end that will be saved. Read Matthew 24:1-13, especially vs. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what? From the lake of fire as they have endured all the temptations of this world, especially not taking the mark of the beast and bowing down to the false prophet (son of perdition) who claims he is Christ by lying signs and wonders promising peace and safety, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

 

[for_his_glory]

Scenario of the end of days:

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.

God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.


This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[jasonc]

"Then they said unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that he believe on him whom he hath sent."
John 6:28-29

It is far from "simple".

And FAITH
IS
a "work" in this sense.

As to "rank" in heaven, we have many METAPHORS in Scripture regarding the after world.

One could also see "rank in hell" in the "beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes" passage. Or what do these "beatings" mean? Are they for the damned, or are they "at the beama judgement seat of Christ" - for Christians?

Have you read what sheol is in the oral traditions as you,just described it.

The problem with that is why aren't you,all,Catholics ?purgatory and sheol,are similar . pray for those there ,they repent and rise up out of it.

 

[Edward]

Amen.

I agree, the timing of His coming lays a solid foundation to build our understanding upon.

I think the reason the Father has not told anyone the date (even in heaven), was so that there is now flexible timing for Him that allows room for His mercy and grace.

For all we know, maybe we are in an extension of time right now?!

 

[jerry63935]

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

those that are truly saved .not everyone who says Lord Lord
Matthew 7:21
i am not on board this going through the great tribulation

 

[JLB]

I think the reason the Father has not told anyone the date (even in heaven), was so that there is now flexible timing for Him that allows room for His mercy and grace.

For all we know, maybe we are in an extension of time right now?!

Could very well be.


However, from scripture we know it will be on the feast of trumpets.

That narrows down the year.

Then we know that there will be the last seven years of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy.

So that will narrow it down to one of two days.


The feast of trumpets doesn’t start on a specific day, like the 29th or 30th day of the month, but when the new moon is spotted.

Hence the saying... no man knows the day or hour.

This phrase tells us Je is referring to the feast of trumpets.


Daniel gets more specific with exact days.


“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever....
And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. Daniel 12:1-3,9-12




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

For all we know, maybe we are in an extension of time right now?

no Doubt in my mind in extension time. look at the shape the world is . its like seeing a black berry bush full of berries ready to pick