Proof of Trinity

[Free]

Have you ever discussed the divinity of our Lord with them, or asked if they are saved? If they really are JW's they wont agree. Ask about Charles Russel, Judge Rutherford, the house of security in San Diego, and prophesies of the time of the end. I worked with one man that was an hour long speaker I think he said it was at JW meetings; within three years he and his wife were attending the assembly I go to. Plant a seed and it's possible it'll grow.

I'm sure he has.


You are a JW, are you not, Teddy?

 

[Randy]

John 1:1-4 can be used to refute plenty of false doctrines. One that comes readily to mind is the Arian controversy, where prior to the first council of Nicea one of the leaders of the church promoted the idea that "there was when He was not" suggesting that Jesus did not exist at the time of creation, but as this passage points out, He clearly was.

Jesus stated "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." That puts the Son before the creation in Genesis. (In the beginning.) That doesn't state Jesus always was. Scripture doesn't even state the Father always was.

Scripture states this :
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Scripture also doesn't state Jesus is the Diety (God) it states the "fullness" was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus stated it was "The Father in Him doing His work"

Taking what John wrote and what Paul wrote and all the statements of Jesus in relation to the Father my theology/understanding is this.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

So Jesus is called both God and Son.

And in regard to a creed I like Pauls

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


R.

 

[jasoncran]

What's the point of a "discussion" concerning a subject which is off-limits for anyone who dissents?


That’s very commendable, Eugene. But the faith of those 2 women is as strong as any other Christian’s. And I’ll bet they would have been more than willing to discuss ‘proofs’ of the trinity with you. Did they listen to what you had to say? Did you then listen to what they had to say?

To be parallel to what happens on many Christian discussion sites, we would see the two JW women come to your door. Then, when you wanted to discuss who God is, they would have listened intently to you. And then when they tried to answer your discussion points, you would slam the door in their faces. (I hope you didn’t do that, this is only a comparison.)[/quotest strong they are taught to argue and learn not the bible but the books that they are reading in the sunday morning service at the kingdom hall and also Tuesday night bible study. I know I was a jw for many years. that is why I know the arguments of both sides but I became better at this here. the jw deny the very diety of jesus and call him an archangel, kinda hard when god says not to worship and angel nor his image.

 

[Free]

Jesus stated "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." That puts the Son before the creation in Genesis. (In the beginning.) That doesn't state Jesus always was. Scripture doesn't even state the Father always was.

I don't see how that at all addresses John 1:1-3. The logic of John 1:1-3 is inescapable:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.(ESV)

Not even addressing verse 1, verse 3 clearly states that everything in existence, everything that was ever created, was made "through him" and that not a single thing was made "without him." The only logical conclusion then is that Jesus himself is not created.

This also is in agreement with Col 1:16-17:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

And 1 Cor 8:6, which, ironically, you give at the end of your post:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

All three passages show the exact same thing: that Jesus was involved in the creation process of every single thing that has ever been created. Again, the only logical conclusion is that he cannot himself have been created. And, of course, 1 Cor 8:6 implies that the Father has always existed as well.

Scripture states this :
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. This does not in anyway disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity. And you really should post chapter, verse, and version (if it's a copyrighted one).

Scripture also doesn't state Jesus is the Diety (God) it states the "fullness" was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus stated it was "The Father in Him doing His work"

But I have shown that Scripture very much implies that Jesus is God, particularly John 1:1-3, which even states that "the Word was God." Of course, there are many more passages that state these things either explicitly or implicitly than just the three passages given.

Taking what John wrote and what Paul wrote and all the statements of Jesus in relation to the Father my theology/understanding is this.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

So Jesus is called both God and Son.

And in regard to a creed I like Pauls

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

But you do not seem to understand the implications of what Paul says here in 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus cannot be said to be both God and not God. That is a contradiction. Either he is God or he is not. Neither John nor Paul give any indication that Jesus is not God just because he is the Son, nor is there any rational reason to believe that being the Son means he cannot also be God.

 

[Knotical]

Jesus stated "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." That puts the Son before the creation in Genesis. (In the beginning.) That doesn't state Jesus always was. Scripture doesn't even state the Father always was.

Scripture states this :
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Scripture also doesn't state Jesus is the Diety (God) it states the "fullness" was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus stated it was "The Father in Him doing His work"

Taking what John wrote and what Paul wrote and all the statements of Jesus in relation to the Father my theology/understanding is this.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

So Jesus is called both God and Son.

And in regard to a creed I like Pauls

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


R.

Apparently you don't believe in the Trinity, for as part of the Trinity Jesus is Both God and the Son. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All equally God, yet with their own distinct persons. And all of always existed.

 

[Randy]

I don't see how that at all addresses John 1:1-3. The logic of John 1:1-3 is inescapable:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.(ESV)

Not even addressing verse 1, verse 3 clearly states that everything in existence, everything that was ever created, was made "through him" and that not a single thing was made "without him." The only logical conclusion then is that Jesus himself is not created.

This also is in agreement with Col 1:16-17:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

And 1 Cor 8:6, which, ironically, you give at the end of your post:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

All three passages show the exact same thing: that Jesus was involved in the creation process of every single thing that has ever been created. Again, the only logical conclusion is that he cannot himself have been created. And, of course, 1 Cor 8:6 implies that the Father has always existed as well.


I'm not sure what you're trying to show here. This does not in anyway disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity. And you really should post chapter, verse, and version (if it's a copyrighted one).


But I have shown that Scripture very much implies that Jesus is God, particularly John 1:1-3, which even states that "the Word was God." Of course, there are many more passages that state these things either explicitly or implicitly than just the three passages given.


But you do not seem to understand the implications of what Paul says here in 1 Cor 8:6. Jesus cannot be said to be both God and not God. That is a contradiction. Either he is God or he is not. Neither John nor Paul give any indication that Jesus is not God just because he is the Son, nor is there any rational reason to believe that being the Son means he cannot also be God.

As the Son Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" Jesus called the Father the One true God. How then do you hold to One God if Jesus always was and always was God?

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Fathers Spirit. The fullness of the deity that dwells in the Son is the Father. The deity was given not born. Jesus is the one who is firstborn.
While the Holy Spirit bears witness that witness is from the mind of the Spirit as in those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son. As is written they shall all be taught by God.

Scripture states God has spoken to us by His Son. (The word of God) As Jesus stated it was the Father in Him doing His work. The name given Jesus in Rev is "the Word of God".

Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whomalso he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. In that context Jesus is God. (all that the Father is)

But Jesus has always been the Son. Firstborn of all creation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mod, can you add 'the Trinity' to the title so every time I see this thread title I don't think it says 'proof of virginity' (Deuteronomy 22)?

 

[Randy]

In regard to creation - Jesus had a hand in what the Father did.

All things were created by Gods command and by His will.
Rev
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Now - about the "Son" and the "creation" -all things that were created were created through Jesus. But since the fullness in Jesus is the Father Jesus does nothing apart from the Father. As Jesus taught in that manner they are One.

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[g]?


The God and Father of us all gave Rev. to the Son (The word of God) and the Son via His angel and John gave that testimony to the Church.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Free]

As the Son Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" Jesus called the Father the One true God. How then do you hold to One God if Jesus always was and always was God?

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Fathers Spirit. The fullness of the deity that dwells in the Son is the Father. The deity was given not born. Jesus is the one who is firstborn.
While the Holy Spirit bears witness that witness is from the mind of the Spirit as in those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son. As is written they shall all be taught by God.

Scripture states God has spoken to us by His Son. (The word of God) As Jesus stated it was the Father in Him doing His work. The name given Jesus in Rev is "the Word of God".

Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. In that context Jesus is God. (all that the Father is)

But Jesus has always been the Son. Firstborn of all creation.

I don't see how any of this addresses what I said. There certainly is nothing there that refutes the doctrine of the Trinity. Perhaps you can clarify.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

As the Son Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit my spirit" Jesus called the Father the One true God. How then do you hold to One God if Jesus always was and always was God?

I suppose I'll enter into the discussion here.

Nothing about Jesus' statement contradicts the doctrine of the trinity. This is a question about the hypostatic union, in which the Chalcedon creed will help you there.[1]

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Fathers Spirit.

The Father is Spirit, but that does not mean the Holy Spirit is the same person.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.[2]

The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father, you have one agent... the Father... acting on another agent... the Helper/Holy Spirit. Two distinct entities. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but is not the Father.

The fullness of the deity that dwells in the Son is the Father.

I noticed you never quoted the full verse, let's look at the context to try and determine what Paul is saying, and why.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.[3]

The context opens up with a warning, a warning against perhaps the pagan philosophical traditions at the time (certainly not a condemnation of all philosophy). The next sentence beings with the explanatory conjuction ὅτι, which can be rendered as "for, because or that." "In him," the masculine pronoun referring to Jesus, and dwells comes from the Greek word κατοικεῖ which denotes taking up a permanent residence. And what takes up permanent residence in Jesus? The πλήρωμα τῆς Θεότητος, or in the English, the fullness of deity. What's interesting here is that Paul uses an abstract term for deity, the word Θεότητος, which is the only time this word is used, though a weaker form is utilized in Romans 1:20. Here the word pertains to not just the attributes, but the very essence of God dwells with permanence in the now glorified body of Christ. This is stated by Paul because of it's significance to the believers, that we share in the fullness of God because we are in Christ, and Christ is God.

The deity was given not born.

Remember, the word Θεότητος is an abstract term, your point does not pertain to the verse in question.

Jesus is the one who is firstborn.

Remember, the idea of being a "firstborn" in Jewish society meant a lot. There are certain rights and responsibilities that are conferred on the firstborns as well as status, even receiving twice the inheritance. And the Greek word πρωτότοκος properly means first (πρωτό translit. proto) in time (τοκος translit tokos), so it does not necessarily entail that Jesus had a beginning, but rather that he is pre-existed before creation. The "firstborn" is a title of status and responsibility over creation,

Which is explained by the next verse.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.[4]

He is the "firstborn of creation" because or for by all things were created through him and for him.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcedonian_Creed
[2] John 14:26 (ESV)
[3] Colossians 2:8-10 (ESV)
[4] Colossians 1:16 (ESV)

 

[Randy]

I suppose I'll enter into the discussion here.

Nothing about Jesus' statement contradicts the doctrine of the trinity. This is a question about the hypostatic union, in which the Chalcedon creed will help you there.[1]


The Father is Spirit, but that does not mean the Holy Spirit is the same person.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.[2]

The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father, you have one agent... the Father... acting on another agent... the Helper/Holy Spirit. Two distinct entities. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but is not the Father.


I noticed you never quoted the full verse, let's look at the context to try and determine what Paul is saying, and why.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.[3]

The context opens up with a warning, a warning against perhaps the pagan philosophical traditions at the time (certainly not a condemnation of all philosophy). The next sentence beings with the explanatory conjuction ὅτι, which can be rendered as "for, because or that." "In him," the masculine pronoun referring to Jesus, and dwells comes from the Greek word κατοικεῖ which denotes taking up a permanent residence. And what takes up permanent residence in Jesus? The πλήρωμα τῆς Θεότητος, or in the English, the fullness of deity. What's interesting here is that Paul uses an abstract term for deity, the word Θεότητος, which is the only time this word is used, though a weaker form is utilized in Romans 1:20. Here the word pertains to not just the attributes, but the very essence of God dwells with permanence in the now glorified body of Christ. This is stated by Paul because of it's significance to the believers, that we share in the fullness of God because we are in Christ, and Christ is God.


Remember, the word Θεότητος is an abstract term, your point does not pertain to the verse in question.


Remember, the idea of being a "firstborn" in Jewish society meant a lot. There are certain rights and responsibilities that are conferred on the firstborns as well as status, even receiving twice the inheritance. And the Greek word πρωτότοκος properly means first (πρωτό translit. proto) in time (τοκος translit tokos), so it does not necessarily entail that Jesus had a beginning, but rather that he is pre-existed before creation. The "firstborn" is a title of status and responsibility over creation,

Which is explained by the next verse.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.[4]

He is the "firstborn of creation" because or for by all things were created through him and for him.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcedonian_Creed
[2] John 14:26 (ESV)
[3] Colossians 2:8-10 (ESV)
[4] Colossians 1:16 (ESV)

The Father - I shall place my Spirit on Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations. Jesus - the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me. Jesus all sins committed against Him will be forgiven but sins committed against the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven. God is Spirit and His Spirit searches the deep thoughts of the mind of the Spirit.

Jesus has His own Spirit. I understand what firstborn means and I disagree with your take. I also understand why God declares to be the God of the Son and why Jesus states the Father is His God. Because that is truth. Jesus has always been the Son. The firstborn of all creation.

Randy

 

[Asyncritus]

My Suspicions

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which took several hundred years to be formulated and accepted. The trinity is decidedly one such. Why did it take so long? And why has it cost so many lives?

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which is a theological construct, not identified explicitly in scripture, and which requires substantial extra-scriptural support from suspicious theologians, and uses suspiciously philosophical descriptive terms which are nowhere found in scripture. (Such as 'hypostatic union!')

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which hinges on one or two main passages, namely John 1 and Col. 1, and contradicts in a very very big way, the very, very plain tenor of all the rest of scripture.

I'm certain if you supporters of the doctrine would step back and look at this objectively and dispassionately ( always a very big ask when discussing this particular doctrine), you would surely see that the above points are quite devastating.

The Jews

The Jews are very important in this discussion. Jesus said 'Salvation is of the Jews'.

Therefore, we cannot, must not ignore or contradict their views of God.

And what was their view?

Very simple, and very simply stated in very many places:

Deut 6.4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Ex.20. 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Dozens of passages describing God as the Holy One. A selection:

2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O Holy One of Israel.
Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited Holy One of Israel.
Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

The use of the pronoun 'I' in innumerable passages where God speaks about Himself.

The singular adjective 'The' in the phrase 'the Holy One. 'One' is also a pointer away from the trinitarian doctrine.

Surely, all of this must make the trinitarian quiver a little?

And Jesus, the Jew above all Jews, took the selfsame point of view.

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment....

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

It's pretty obvious from the above, that Jesus fully endorsed the Jewish One God position. He now congratulates the scribe on believing that same doctrine:

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Where is there the slightest shred of an indication that Jesus Himself believed in the trinity in that passage? Nowhere, I submit.

Not only so, but He explicitly declares His subjection to the Father:

Jn 14. 28 ¶ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Add to that, the 75 or so passages in John's gospel which explicitly or implicity assert that Jesus is inferior to His Father, which I listed elsewhere, then the case for the Unity of God and the subjection of Christ to Him becomes insurmountable.

In fact, Paul explicitly says so, twice:

1 Cor 15. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[Free]

My Suspicions

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which took several hundred years to be formulated and accepted. The trinity is decidedly one such. Why did it take so long? And why has it cost so many lives?

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which is a theological construct, not identified explicitly in scripture, and which requires substantial extra-scriptural support from suspicious theologians, and uses suspiciously philosophical descriptive terms which are nowhere found in scripture. (Such as 'hypostatic union!')

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which hinges on one or two main passages, namely John 1 and Col. 1, and contradicts in a very very big way, the very, very plain tenor of all the rest of scripture.

I'm certain if you supporters of the doctrine would step back and look at this objectively and dispassionately ( always a very big ask when discussing this particular doctrine), you would surely see that the above points are quite devastating.

The Jews

The Jews are very important in this discussion. Jesus said 'Salvation is of the Jews'.

Therefore, we cannot, must not ignore or contradict their views of God.

And what was their view?

Very simple, and very simply stated in very many places:

Deut 6.4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Ex.20. 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Dozens of passages describing God as the Holy One. A selection:

2Ki 19:22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O Holy One of Israel.
Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited Holy One of Israel.
Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

The use of the pronoun 'I' in innumerable passages where God speaks about Himself.

The singular adjective 'The' in the phrase 'the Holy One. 'One' is also a pointer away from the trinitarian doctrine.

Surely, all of this must make the trinitarian quiver a little?

And Jesus, the Jew above all Jews, took the selfsame point of view.

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment....

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

It's pretty obvious from the above, that Jesus fully endorsed the Jewish One God position. He now congratulates the scribe on believing that same doctrine:

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Where is there the slightest shred of an indication that Jesus Himself believed in the trinity in that passage? Nowhere, I submit.

Not only so, but He explicitly declares His subjection to the Father:

Jn 14. 28 ¶ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Add to that, the 75 or so passages in John's gospel which explicitly or implicity assert that Jesus is inferior to His Father, which I listed elsewhere, then the case for the Unity of God and the subjection of Christ to Him becomes insurmountable.

In fact, Paul explicitly says so, twice:

1 Cor 15. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nothing you have given proves the doctrine of the Trinity false in any way whatsoever.

 

[Asyncritus]

Strange comment Free.

The passages establish way beyond any possible cavil or question that:

1 God is One

2 God has absolutely no equal

3 That Jesus is His Son and that

4 His Father is Greater than He.

I can't really see any room for maoeuvre in those statements

We might add that He is the Only One who is from eternity to eternity (from everlasting to everlasting)

I might say that there is no room for trinitarian maneuvering in those texts, and John 1 and Col 1 have to accommodate those essential teachings of scripture somehow.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Strange comment Free.

The passages establish way beyond any possible cavil or question that:

1 God is One

2 God has absolutely no equal

3 That Jesus is His Son and that

4 His Father is Greater than He.

I can't really see any room for maoeuvre in those statements

We might add that He is the Only One who is from eternity to eternity (from everlasting to everlasting)

I might say that there is no room for trinitarian maneuvering in those texts, and John 1 and Col 1 have to accommodate those essential teachings of scripture somehow.

How does John 1 accommodate the idea that Jesus is not divine? All you have demonstrated here is the following.

1. You don't understand trinitarian theology.
2. We affirm that Jesus is functionally subordinate to the Father, but not ontologically.
3. You disregard certain Scriptures in favor of others.

Theology is not made from a selection of verses, it is made from an accumulation of all the verses on the matter. And it clearly states that, "God was the Word."

 

[Free]

Strange comment Free.

The passages establish way beyond any possible cavil or question that:

1 God is One

2 God has absolutely no equal

3 That Jesus is His Son and that

4 His Father is Greater than He.

I can't really see any room for maoeuvre in those statements

We might add that He is the Only One who is from eternity to eternity (from everlasting to everlasting)

I might say that there is no room for trinitarian maneuvering in those texts, and John 1 and Col 1 have to accommodate those essential teachings of scripture somehow.

There is just too much error in what you have stated that I don't have time for at the moment but, as has been pointed out, you have been very selective in the passages you have given. As such, everything you have stated is based on having taken all those passages out of context.

But what is most telling about how you approach Scripture, is what you have missed in your own post. Look at what you bolded in Deut 6:4, which itself says nothing about the nature of God but rather is just a statement of monotheism, and compard with 1 Cor 8:6. Not only that, look back at what I have already said about 1 Cor 8:6.

So how you can say my comment is strange is beyond me.

 

[jasoncran]

the torah was given to Hebrews who were freed from a polytheistic culture. so it make sense to see the shemah as saying simply we have but one God

 

[Free]

I might say that there is no room for trinitarian maneuvering in those texts, and John 1 and Col 1 have to accommodate those essential teachings of scripture somehow.

It is your position that cannot accommodate John 1, Col 1, and 1 Cor 8:6. They are all in complete agreement that Jesus is God in nature, yet not the Father, and that there is only one God. Scripture affirms the following:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet each is distinct from the others.
3. Based on the above, each "person" is coequal and co-eternal.
4. Jesus is truly man and, being the Son, is truly God.

Any theology proper must make sense of it all. Your position either ignores those passages which speak of the deity of Jesus or reinterprets them in ways which completely remove the clear meaning. You use passages speaking of the humanity of Christ to overrule those which speak of his deity, without any biblical basis for doing so.

 

[Free]

the torah was given to Hebrews who were freed from a polytheistic culture. so it make sense to see the shemah as saying simply we have but one God

Exactly. And I agree with N. T. Wright who believes that 1 Cor 8:6 is Paul's new, fuller understanding of the Shema based on the revelation of God in Christ.

 

[Asyncritus]

How does John 1 accommodate the idea that Jesus is not divine? All you have demonstrated here is the following.

1. You don't understand trinitarian theology.

And , I might add, neither do you. On how many occasions have trinitarians stated 'this is a great mystery' when confronting such seriously trinitarian-contradictory passages as John 14.28? 'My Father is greater than I'. Well, is He greater, or isn't He?

And the undoubted 2 facts that

1 God cannot sin
2 But Jesus certainly could (but didn't).

Therefore, Jesus could not be God in nature. And if the ability to sin is inferior to being incapable of sin, then Jesus must have been inferior to His Father: which, of course, is clearly implied by John 14. 28 above, and elsewhere.

These are mutually exclusive things, and accepting the doctrine of the trinity means accepting the 'great mystery' referred to above, which clearly means that trinitarians don't understand their own theology. Which is the accusation you level against me!

2. We affirm that Jesus is functionally subordinate to the Father, but not ontologically.

This is what I meant by:

I am deeply suspicious of any doctrine which is a theological construct, not identified explicitly in scripture, and which requires substantial extra-scriptural support from suspicious theologians, and uses suspiciously philosophical descriptive terms which are nowhere found in scripture. (Such as 'hypostatic union!')

You've just added another: functionally subordinate to the Father, but not ontologically.

A fundamental tenet of the trinity is that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are: 'co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal' and a lot of other co-'s besides.

None of the three, therefore, on the grounds of 'co-equality' can possibly be 'subordinate' to any other. That is a contradiction in terms, and logically unacceptable. So you have just flatly contradicted your own position, haven't you?

3. You disregard certain Scriptures in favor of others.

I would go further than that in describing your position.

The whole tenor of scripture, from beginning to end, is that 'there is One God, the Father', and 'Jesus Christ our Lord is His Son'.

There is, therefore, a divine hierarchy: namely Number One: The Father. Number Two: The Son.

You may not disregard this plainness of doctrine, for whatever reason.

You may not make anyone the equal of God the Father, and you may not put the Lord Jesus into a position which He never sought (as Adam did, to be equal with God), and which must be excruciatingly painful to Him, who, as a bondslave is, 'come to do thy will, O God', who is repeatedly described as 'My Servant', and 'my Son' ('this day have I begotten thee' Ps 2, and 'this is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' at His baptism).

Theology is not made from a selection of verses, it is made from an accumulation of all the verses on the matter. And it clearly states that, "God was the Word."

That, I'm afraid, is a selected verse, and a possible mistranslation. On such flimsy grounds do you base your argument.

The heavy accumulation of verses (such as I quoted above, concerning the Holy ONE of Israel, the One God of Deuteronomy 6.4 and Mark 12.28-32, and of Exodus 20.)

is one-sidedly in favour of the Oneness and total supremacy of the Father who, as He says, has NO EQUAL. (entirely contradicted by the 'co-equality' clause of Athanasian and Nicene creeds, to which I presume you subscribe).

And I may again mention the fact that I have collected a total of 78passages in John's gospel alone, which state entirely flatly and without any possibility of doubt, that Jesus is subordinate to His Father.

Against that, you have a few verses in John 1 which can very easily be strongly disputed.

Quite apart from anything else, don't these numbers mean anything to you?

How many times does Jesus have to say that 'God sent Him', that God is His Father', 'that He does the will of His Father', that He 'can do nothing but what His Father shows/ teaches Him' and a multitude of such equivalent statements which cannot be controverted, before you believe Him?