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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Proof of Trinity
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Chopper
Member
Well, lets talk about that in a Christian manner, I will respect you in your belief system if you will return the favor.
Now, as I see it, if you don't believe that the Christ Jesus is not part of the very essence of the Godhead, then you would have a problem with the forgiveness of your sins. Upon studying the account of Messiah's conception and birth, from Isaiah's prophecy through any Scripture relating to Messiah, you have to come to grips with Jesus' Blood. With anything that has anything to do with Christ Jesus, the foundation of His appearance on the earth has to do with the blotting out of the handwriting of sin's against those of Whom He came to save. The only way our sin's can be forgiven is through Perfect Blood. If Jesus the Christ is anything other than the Essence of God, there is no perfect Blood. The Blood that flowed through Jesus, had its origin in the essence of God and was Perfect Blood!
Isa. 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Gregg
Member
Isa 9:6 is one of the most beautiful verses in all of the Bible; undemanding in its simplicity but with profound implication. I am hoping that a non-trinitarian will reply with a succinct answer.
In Isaiah 6:1, the prophet observed the Lord sitting on a throne. But who did Isaiah see sitting there;
God the Father
or
the Son of God?
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We should be concerned with words like that, words like "My glory will I not give to another"?
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
Jesus clearly states that not only did he exist before the world existed, he shared the Father's glory. Care to explain?
A
Asyncritus
Guest
What did Jesus say?
'Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven'. Right? Right.
If we were foreknown before the foundation of the world (Eph 1), then for how long has our treasure been there?
Answer, from before the foundation of the world. Right? Right.
And what form will that reward take?
Answer, some form of glorification. Right? Right.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
So our glory, has been with the Father since before the foundation of the world. Right? Right.
So when Jesus asks God to glorify Him with the glory which he had with Him since before the foundation of the world, He is simply saying that that glory was (like ours), laid up in heaven for Him.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
In other words, it was laid up in heaven for Him since the year dot, and He was now going to receive it. As Hebrews 12 says:
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
And being made like unto His brethren, who will be glorified for their sufferings, He received that glory at His ascension, being (1Ti 3:16)...received up into glory.
I recommend a careful reading of 2 Cor 4 on the subject, which says inter alia
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
So the Lord's glory, which He had with the Father, was laid up with the Father from before the foundation of the world.
As is ours, which we are yet to receive. You will note that we were not there!
That, however, is not what Isaiah is talking about when he said 'my glory will I not give to another.' There is a glory which properly belongs to a King which cannot be shared with anyone or anything else.
Similarly here. The Great King has, and is entitled to a glory which, as He has stated exceedingly clearly, He will not give to another - because He has no equals. Not even His Son, whom He has exalted as far as it is possible to do.
That is the protocol of heaven to which I was referring.
I hope that helps.
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A
Asyncritus
Guest
Who did John the Baptist come announcing?
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (The word is Jehovah – the official name of God)
Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee . .
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
BUT
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
In a time future, our Father will again escalate Jesus to rule in that power He gave up. He has been given the power in Mat 28:18 but has not taken it yet which He will in the Day of the Lord.
Rev 1:8 (Jesus said) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Though Jesus rules as God here, 1 Cor 15:27 For He (Our Father) hath put all things under His (Jesus) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. All things will not include our Father being subject to Jesus.
And then 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (Our Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
However one wants to divide God, He remains One in purpose for our sakes. Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (The word is Jehovah – the official name of God)
Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee . .
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
BUT
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
In a time future, our Father will again escalate Jesus to rule in that power He gave up. He has been given the power in Mat 28:18 but has not taken it yet which He will in the Day of the Lord.
Rev 1:8 (Jesus said) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Though Jesus rules as God here, 1 Cor 15:27 For He (Our Father) hath put all things under His (Jesus) feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. All things will not include our Father being subject to Jesus.
And then 1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (Our Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
However one wants to divide God, He remains One in purpose for our sakes. Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Chopper
Member
All this posting back and forth will prove fruitless. You are avoiding the question of Jesus' Blood. Answer that if you can. Where does the jesus that you believe in get his blood? And how?
It helps to understand something alright but not at all to what Jesus meant when he said, "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." He makes a very plain statement which is easily understood and very consistent with the rest of the book of John, yet you require all sorts of presupposition and jumping around Scripture.
Jesus' statement makes it clear that he existed before the world existed and shared in the Father's glory. Simple as that.
Isa 45:21~~
21 “Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, theLord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
Titus 2:13~~13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
21 “Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, theLord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
Titus 2:13~~13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Rev 1:7-8~~
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Isa 9:6~~6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Isa 9:6~~6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Gregg
Member
1) If someone answers that Isaiah saw God the Father [whose Name is YHWH], then they have to deny that "No one has seen God [the Father] at any time" (Jn 1:18);
or,
2) if someone answers that Isaiah saw the Son of God sitting of His throne, then they have to confess the LORD Jesus, YHWH the Son of God.
According to John 12:41, Isaiah saw the Son of God sitting on His throne. He "saw the Lord" (Adonay Isa 6:1), the "LORD of hosts" (YHWH Isa 6:3), "the King, the LORD of hosts" and that with his eyes (Isa 6:5).
"These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him" (John 12:41).
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The Name YHWH belongs to the Father and to the Son, One God; but it is the Son whom Isaiah saw sitting on the throne, and who took the name Jesus Christ upon His Incarnation. So Christians confess the LORD Jesus (Rom 10:9).
chessman
Member
Yeah but doesn't that come out of one of those Trinitarian Bible things? You know, the ones that are the "vast majority" today that are published and printed with Trinitarian money?
The kind of money that is labeled "In
Rev 22:12-13~~12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Rev 22:20~~20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Isa 40:10~~10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might,
With His arm ruling for Him.
Behold, His reward is with Him
And His recompense before Him.
Rev 22:20~~20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Isa 40:10~~10Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might,
With His arm ruling for Him.
Behold, His reward is with Him
And His recompense before Him.
Gregg
Member
If one denies the Deity of the Son of God, then he is playing a shell game with the truth, moving the truth here and there.
He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; keep on looking, but do not understand. Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim; otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.' " (Isaiah 6:9-10)
He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; keep on looking, but do not understand. Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim; otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.' " (Isaiah 6:9-10)
chessman
Member
Why is it that some people cannot understand the Triune God and even claim it's not taught in scripture, except in "Trinitarian Bibles", that is?
John 10:6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.
Why does Jesus say things in parables?
Matthew 13:10
[ The Reason for the Parables ] And the disciples came up and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
Matthew 13:13
For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand,
[But why is it that some people don't understand?]
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
and with their ears they hear with difficulty,
and they have shut their eyes,
Note: this is Jesus recorded saying this in Matt, yet quoting Isaiah! And to think, He didn't even have Bible software.
And who told it to Isaiah in the first place? One guess. The Word, maybe?
Who are the ones that hear and understand The Word versus the people that misunderstand The Word? Trinitarians or non-Trinitarians? Good cops or bad cops?
17 Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life [The Lamb] so that I may take possession of it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down. ...
Hmm, The Father and The Lamb. Two persons, maybe? And what's up with The Lamb having possession of His own life? I thought God had possession of all humans' lives?
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s possession, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light,
And one guess as to who Peter meant by "the one".
5 They will give an account to the one who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Who's the judge?
Why does it matter?
7 Therefore the honor is for you who believe, but for those who refuse to believe, ...
Oh well, such is the life of the Trinitarian:
14 If you are reviled on account of the name of Christ, you are blessed,
What's that, the name of who do we suffer? Oh yeah, Christ.
19 So then also those who suffer according to the will of God must entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing good.
What's that? Suffer according to who? Oh yeah, God, that's who.