Proof of Trinity

[Chopper]

Why is it that some people cannot understand the Triune God and even claim it's not taught in scripture, except in "Trinitarian Bibles", that is?

John 10:6 Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them.

Why does Jesus say things in parables?

Matthew 13:10
[ The Reason for the Parables ] And the disciples came up and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”

Matthew 13:13
For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand,

[But why is it that some people don't understand?]

15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
and with their ears they hear with difficulty,
and they have shut their eyes,

Note: this is Jesus recorded saying this in Matt, yet quoting Isaiah! And to think, He didn't even have Bible software.

And who told it to Isaiah in the first place? One guess. The Word, maybe?

Who are the ones that hear and understand The Word versus the people that misunderstand The Word? Trinitarians or non-Trinitarians? Good cops or bad cops?

17 Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life [The Lamb] so that I may take possession of it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down. ...

Hmm, The Father and The Lamb. Two persons, maybe? And what's up with The Lamb having possession of His own life? I thought God had possession of all humans' lives?

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s possession, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light,

And one guess as to who Peter meant by "the one".

5 They will give an account to the one who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Who's the judge?

Why does it matter?

7 Therefore the honor is for you who believe, but for those who refuse to believe, ...

Oh well, such is the life of the Trinitarian:

14 If you are reviled on account of the name of Christ, you are blessed,

What's that, the name of who do we suffer? Oh yeah, Christ.

19 So then also those who suffer according to the will of God must entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing good.

What's that? Suffer according to who? Oh yeah, God, that's who.

All those words and I can't tell if you believe in the trinity or not. Am I to old to figure out your language? Are you or aren't you a believer in the Trinity?

 

[chessman]

Are you or aren't you a believer in the Trinity?

Yes.
I just believe the Bible.

 

[Chopper]

Yes.
I just believe the Bible.

Thank you, so do I. Why do you think that it is so hard for people to accept the Name for the triune God, Elohym. I know that there are other secondary meanings, but the primary is 3 in 1.

 

[chessman]

Why do you think that it is so hard for people to accept the Name for the triune God, Elohym.

I think Gregg nailed it.
To fulfill the Isaiah prophecy, that's why. Then and now God's will, will be done. If God wants someone to know Him, they do. Period.

For the same reason those Pharisees wouldn't except Jesus' claim of being God, even viewing with their own eyes His miracles and hearing His words, some even today don't accept it either.

 

[jeff77]

I know I am late getting in on this thread but I have a question that I hope no one has ask yet.

In heaven will believers see God the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? Or all of them?

 

[farouk]

I know I am late getting in on this thread but I have a question that I hope no one has ask yet.

In heaven will believers see God the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? Or all of them?

In Hebrews 1, the Lord Jesus is described as 'the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His Person'. What God is like, the Lord Jesus is like.

There is so much about heaven that we cannot conceive of, but we know that the Lord Jesus will be there in glory.

 

[Jesse Stone]

In the Old Testament God refers to himself with singular pronouns "I", "me", "my", "mine". Not plural pronouns "we" or "our".

Look at any of these verses as examples. It is a broad sampling of a few out of many.

Genesis 6:3-7; Exodus 3:7-10; Leviticus 16:2; 2 Kings 23:27; Job 2:3; Job 42:7; Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 1:24-26; Jeremiah 1:4-10; Ezekiel 44:5-9; Hosea 1:4-7; Zechariah 1:1-2; Malachi 1:1-7.

The word translated God (Elohim) is a plural word. Yet neither Jewish nor Christian translations translate the word in the plural (Gods) when it refers to God. With reason since God plainly says he is the only God (Isaiah 44:6-8). So the use of the plural word must refer to a meaning other than plural. Perhaps a reference to his majesty or some such.

God has a name (the tetragrammaton, translated as Jehovah or Yahweh, or LORD; doesn't matter which; meaning literally: the self-existing one). A name God regards as a personal name. (Exodus 6:3) A name used all over the Old Testament together with God, Jehovah God (e.g., Genesis 2:4-9; Isaiah 10:23-24; Ezekiel 5:5-11). And as Jehovah God he uses singular pronouns to refer to himself (e.g., Amos 9:8).

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4 ASV)

This isn't a reference to God being one God. It's a reference to God being one Jehovah. One person. And translating "one Jehovah" or "one Lord" as "the Lord is one", as modern translations do, doesn't change that.

This is my primary problem with the Trinity.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Free.

You might want to check out my thread on the Jesse Stone movies in the Popular Culture section. Since your name comes up a couple of times.

 

[gr8grace3]

In the Old Testament God refers to himself with singular pronouns "I", "me", "my", "mine". Not plural pronouns "we" or "our".

Look at any of these verses as examples. It is a broad sampling of a few out of many.

Genesis 6:3-7; Exodus 3:7-10; Leviticus 16:2; 2 Kings 23:27; Job 2:3; Job 42:7; Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 1:24-26; Jeremiah 1:4-10; Ezekiel 44:5-9; Hosea 1:4-7; Zechariah 1:1-2; Malachi 1:1-7.

The word translated God (Elohim) is a plural word. Yet neither Jewish nor Christian translations translate the word in the plural (Gods) when it refers to God. With reason since God plainly says he is the only God (Isaiah 44:6-8). So the use of the plural word must refer to a meaning other than plural. Perhaps a reference to his majesty or some such.

God has a name (the tetragrammaton, translated as Jehovah or Yahweh, or LORD; doesn't matter which; meaning literally: the self-existing one). A name God regards as a personal name. (Exodus 6:3) A name used all over the Old Testament together with God, Jehovah God (e.g., Genesis 2:4-9; Isaiah 10:23-24; Ezekiel 5:5-11). And as Jehovah God he uses singular pronouns to refer to himself (e.g., Amos 9:8).

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4 ASV)

This isn't a reference to God being one God. It's a reference to God being one Jehovah. One person. And translating "one Jehovah" or "one Lord" as "the Lord is one", as modern translations do, doesn't change that.

This is my primary problem with the Trinity.

Since each person of the Trinity has the same essence, God is described as one. But they are different as persons.
Distinctions are made between the members of the Trinity, as described in 2 Cor 13:14. “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God [the Father] and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”

Isa 9:6~~For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

There is one true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coequal, coeternal persons. They are the same in substance or essence, but distinct in subsistence or continuing in existence.
The trinity is a revealed doctrine. It embodies truth never discovered; hence, it is undiscoverable by natural reason.

 

[Chopper]

I think Gregg nailed it.
To fulfill the Isaiah prophecy, that's why. Then and now God's will, will be done. If God wants someone to know Him, they do. Period.

For the same reason those Pharisees wouldn't except Jesus' claim of being God, even viewing with their own eyes His miracles and hearing His words, some even today don't accept it either.

OK, thank you. I have wondered too about what Scripture says in Gen.

I know I am late getting in on this thread but I have a question that I hope no one has ask yet.

In heaven will believers see God the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? Or all of them?

Hey Jeff, never to late to jump in my friend. I think the answer to your question is found in Rev. 21:22-27. Both Almighty God, being the Temple, and Jesus, as the Lamb. I don't see the Holy Spirit listed but I know He's active.

 

[Eugene]

I don't see the Holy Spirit listed but I know He's active.

A note from my study in Revelation brother in the next chapter if it helps.
Revelation 22:17. "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." You will notice once again the bride is singled out here as being the leader in harmony with the Holy Ghost and that's what "The Spirit and the bride" means; the Holy Spirit and the bride. She is absolutely in harmony with the power of the Holy Ghost because during her tenure here on the earth she has listened to Him. Remember that the power of the Holy Ghost was sent to guide you into all truth, teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you, and then to take of Mine and give it to you. She is very close to Him and so whatever the Spirit says the bride also says and so when they say come, what do they mean? Of course it is an invitation for all men to come unto Christ. Then notice, "Let him that heareth say, Come" and those that are hearing the Spirit and the bride say come hear that message alright, and once they've heard it, what's their mission to be? Go out and say the same thing or likewise pass that same message along on to others round about them; "Let him that is athirst come." So bringing these nations unto Christ during the millennial period is what it's all about, and again the invitation here is "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." In 2 Peter 3:9 we read that God is "Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" and the message has not changed during the millennial period. God still wants all men to come unto Christ.

 

[Chopper]

A note from my study in Revelation brother in the next chapter if it helps.
Revelation 22:17. "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." You will notice once again the bride is singled out here as being the leader in harmony with the Holy Ghost and that's what "The Spirit and the bride" means; the Holy Spirit and the bride. She is absolutely in harmony with the power of the Holy Ghost because during her tenure here on the earth she has listened to Him. Remember that the power of the Holy Ghost was sent to guide you into all truth, teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you, and then to take of Mine and give it to you. She is very close to Him and so whatever the Spirit says the bride also says and so when they say come, what do they mean? Of course it is an invitation for all men to come unto Christ. Then notice, "Let him that heareth say, Come" and those that are hearing the Spirit and the bride say come hear that message alright, and once they've heard it, what's their mission to be? Go out and say the same thing or likewise pass that same message along on to others round about them; "Let him that is athirst come." So bringing these nations unto Christ during the millennial period is what it's all about, and again the invitation here is "Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." In 2 Peter 3:9 we read that God is "Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" and the message has not changed during the millennial period. God still wants all men to come unto Christ.

Thank you dear Brother.

 

[Randy]

I know I am late getting in on this thread but I have a question that I hope no one has ask yet.

In heaven will believers see God the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? Or all of them?

All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus in bodily form. So Jesus has a body (after all we are to be like Him in that regard as in a bodily resurrection). Jesus should be visible as should be the Father on His throne. The Holy Spirit has no form that I am aware of but may be perceived as John the baptist testified that the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon Jesus. Will it be polite to stare at the 4 creatures? (smile)

R.

 

[Free]

In the Old Testament God refers to himself with singular pronouns "I", "me", "my", "mine". Not plural pronouns "we" or "our".

Look at any of these verses as examples. It is a broad sampling of a few out of many.

Genesis 6:3-7; Exodus 3:7-10; Leviticus 16:2; 2 Kings 23:27; Job 2:3; Job 42:7; Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 1:24-26; Jeremiah 1:4-10; Ezekiel 44:5-9; Hosea 1:4-7; Zechariah 1:1-2; Malachi 1:1-7.

The word translated God (Elohim) is a plural word. Yet neither Jewish nor Christian translations translate the word in the plural (Gods) when it refers to God. With reason since God plainly says he is the only God (Isaiah 44:6-8). So the use of the plural word must refer to a meaning other than plural. Perhaps a reference to his majesty or some such.

God has a name (the tetragrammaton, translated as Jehovah or Yahweh, or LORD; doesn't matter which; meaning literally: the self-existing one). A name God regards as a personal name. (Exodus 6:3) A name used all over the Old Testament together with God, Jehovah God (e.g., Genesis 2:4-9; Isaiah 10:23-24; Ezekiel 5:5-11). And as Jehovah God he uses singular pronouns to refer to himself (e.g., Amos 9:8).

Right. Throughout the OT, God consistently states that there is only one true God and that he is that only one. It is the one Being who is God who is addressing his people, so there is no inconsistency in him using singular personal pronouns. It's interesting how you find this to be a problem yet when he does use plural pronouns of himself (Gen 1:26), you dismiss it as though he is including created beings, despite the context making that highly unlikely. It doesn't seem as though you will accept any legitimate answer for the problem you are having.

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4 ASV)

This isn't a reference to God being one God. It's a reference to God being one Jehovah. One person. And translating "one Jehovah" or "one Lord" as "the Lord is one", as modern translations do, doesn't change that.

This is my primary problem with the Trinity.

But this is what I have shown to be incorrect. Deut 6:4 is only a statement of monotheism and not a statement of the nature of God. Please look back at my post #338 (http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/proof-of-trinity.51592/page-17#post-887061) regarding the meaning of yachid as opposed to the use of echad. This verse most certainly is not saying that God is one person, only that he is the only God to be worshiped. So as I stated before, the use of "one" most certainly is not your problem as it has nothing to do with the actual nature of God.

 

[By Grace]

I know I am late getting in on this thread but I have a question that I hope no one has ask yet.

In heaven will believers see God the father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? Or all of them?

Just being there will be sufficient for me.

Why is something like that and so esoteric important to you? Since the Bible is silent on us seeing God the Father or Holy Spirit to say "yes" or "no" is mere speculation.

I know! You are trying to start a fight, right?

 

[JohnD]

Depends on what you mean by seeing...

Invisible (to the human eye) will still mean invisible in eternity. But I gather there will not be the disconnect between our spirit and our body that there is now. Our spirit will experience other spirits and we will perceive of this in a way that could be called sight, I suppose. Jesus we will see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

 

[JohnD]

Thank you, so do I. Why do you think that it is so hard for people to accept the Name for the triune God, Elohym. I know that there are other secondary meanings, but the primary is 3 in 1.

Um, I understand the name elohiym to be a descriptive name like human is to us. YHVH is the "name" the Almighty gives the Godhead... and is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19) which is still covered in the baptism in Jesus' name as his name is YHVH Shua (YHVH SAVES). Think of YHVH like a surname for God.

 

[JohnD]

As to the single pronouns referring to God, Elohiym is also a plural word for God used some 2700 times in the OT.

I interpret it as one of the three in the Godhead speaking for the Godhead.

In art we understand when Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (in Star Wars Episode III) said "I am the senate!"

Are we such sticklers we cannot see the same literary use of one representing the rest?

 

[Asyncritus]

All this posting back and forth will prove fruitless. You are avoiding the question of Jesus' Blood. Answer that if you can. Where does the jesus that you believe in get his blood? And how?

I see you talking about PERFECT BLOOD. Where do you get that from in the scriptures?

 

[Chopper]

I see you talking about PERFECT BLOOD. Where do you get that from in the scriptures?

Answer my question first and then I'll answer yours.