Proof of Trinity

[Randy]

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Zech 12
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Gods firstborn would be a being not a people.


31The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32The soldiers therefore came, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him: 33but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water. 35And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe. 36For these things came to pass, that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

 

[Randy]

Church of the Firstborn:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Firstborn of all creation
My Firstborn do I appoint Him (Jesus appointed to the line of David) as in the ROOT and offspring of David; The one David calls Lord sitting at the right hand of Living God.
When God brings the Firstborn into the world He states let all Gods angels worship Him



Randy

 

[reba]

Randy some how God's Word all fits together. I/we wont get it all til we dont need the Word.... We will be with Him

 

[elijah23]

Hebrews 9:14;

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God"!

Is this the Trinity all in one sentence?

For me, and I think my church agrees with me on this, the Trinity means that the Lord is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, husband, lawyer, softball player, and volunteer fireman.

 

[Randy]

For me, and I think my church agrees with me on this, the Trinity means that the Lord is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, husband, lawyer, softball player, and volunteer fireman.

Those are good words but I understand who Jesus is.

To me it was Jesus the Son (not God Himself) who offered Himself in accordance to the Fathers will for the atonement of sin. Jesus was without sin. (unblemished) It was noted in Heaven.

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spiritsa of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reignb on the earth.”

11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,

to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength

and honor and glory and praise!”



In regard to the one who sits on the throne. God Almighty! One so great even the Son calls Him His God. Lest anyone gets disturbed God, (from whom everything came and for whom we exist), created through the Son. (Through whom everything came and in whom we live)

11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things,

and by your will they were created

and have their being.”

 

[Edward]

Allenwynne:...Hebrews 9:14;

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God"!

Is this the Trinity all in one sentence?

Yes it is. Also, if you were to go to the beginning of the tower of Babel story and read carefully, you'll realize that the trinity are talking amongst themselves!


Yes they are!

 

[Gregg]

The eternal and immortal Son of God was not the Man Jesus Christ [Immanuel] until:

The Son of God descended out of Heaven (Jn 6:38), from Heaven (Jn 6:51), the LORD out of heaven (1 Cor 15:47),
sent by the Father (Jn 8:42, Gal 4:4a),
taking a body prepared for Him (Heb 10:5),
a body which was conceived in a virgin by the Holy Spirit (Lk 1:31-32, Gal 4:4b),
taking a body in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3),
the form of a bond-servant (Phi 2:7),
He became flesh (Jn 1:14), though still God (Jn 1:1).

 

[Gregg]

In discussing the Trinity (Father, Son, and their Spirit), the matter of the body prepared for the Son of God needs mention. It is my understanding that His body of flesh and blood did not pre-exist creation, nor even before conception in Mary. Any thoughts?

 

[gr8grace3]

In discussing the Trinity (Father, Son, and their Spirit), the matter of the body prepared for the Son of God needs mention. It is my understanding that His body of flesh and blood did not pre-exist creation, nor even before conception in Mary. Any thoughts?

I agree Gregg.

The three phases of Christ’s existence include:
A. His eternal preexistence as the Son of God, which is affirmed in Scripture, Jn.1:1,14; 8:58; 17:5; Phil.2:6;Col.1:16,17; Rev.1:8.
B. His humiliation as the God-Man, extending from His birth to His death, Heb.5:7.
C. His exaltation via resurrection and ascension as the glorified God-Man into the eternal future, 1Thess.4:17;

Its the hypostatic union. His birth to his death on the earth and forever into eternity. I think it is utterly amazing, God Himself, who is outside of time all together, came into time and died for us. And He will forever remain a glorified human as God! That is beyond anybodies imagination.

 

[Asyncritus]

A. His eternal preexistence as the Son of God, which is affirmed in Scripture, Jn.1:1,14; 8:58; 17:5; Phil.2:6;Col.1:16,17; Rev.1:8.

This cannot be the case as I've pointed out several times now, and received no reply or rebuttal:

2 Sam 7.14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

It seems obvious that Jesus was not the Son at the point in time that this was written. I cannot see a way round this simple observation.

Ps 2: 7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Which day?

There are only 2 possibilities:

1 At Jesus' birth:

Lk 1. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In other words, at the time these words were spoken, Jesus was not yet the Son of God, but He would be when He was born.

2 At Jesus' Resurrection:

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

In both cases, He was not the Son of God from eternity to eternity - only God Himself holds that distinction:

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

and: 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is also the problem of His 'conception'.

He was 'conceived' of the Holy Spirit: not transplanted, implanted or engrafted into Mary's womb: which He would have had to be, if He had existed as a spirit being of some kind before His birth.

Gabriel is quite clear on the point:

Lk 1. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

and just to make sure we don't miss the point, he adds:

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

The same Greek verb is used in both verses, completely clarifying what was going to happen to Mary.

 

[Gregg]

I agree Gregg.

The three phases of Christ’s existence include:
A. His eternal preexistence as the Son of God, which is affirmed in Scripture, Jn.1:1,14; 8:58; 17:5; Phil.2:6;Col.1:16,17; Rev.1:8.
B. His humiliation as the God-Man, extending from His birth to His death, Heb.5:7.
C. His exaltation via resurrection and ascension as the glorified God-Man into the eternal future, 1Thess.4:17;

Its the hypostatic union. His birth to his death on the earth and forever into eternity. I think it is utterly amazing, God Himself, who is outside of time all together, came into time and died for us. And He will forever remain a glorified human as God! That is beyond anybodies imagination.

Absolutely beyond imagination! Who would have thought our redemption would have been accomplished in such a manner.
I think the motive to discredit the Trinity of God is actually a desire to discredit the Deity of Jesus Christ, and thereby discredit the effectual power of the blood of Christ; now and for the remainder of eternity.

Back to the original forum post of Heb 9:14, "by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!" The LORD Jesus Christ "entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption" (Heb 9:12).

There is no other way for our redemption, nor will our redemption be sustained by any other than the LORD Jesus Christ.

There has never been, nor will there ever be any other God than the One we know through and in the LORD Jesus Christ.

The flesh and blood of Jesus Christ is physically real, not 'spirit' or only having the appearance of reality, but will forever be a possession of our Immortal and eternal God and Savior, the LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

This cannot be the case as I've pointed out several times now, and received no reply or rebuttal:

2 Sam 7.14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

It seems obvious that Jesus was not the Son at the point in time that this was written. I cannot see a way round this simple observation.

Ps 2: 7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Which day?

There are only 2 possibilities:

1 At Jesus' birth:

Lk 1. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

In other words, at the time these words were spoken, Jesus was not yet the Son of God, but He would be when He was born.

2 At Jesus' Resurrection:

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

In both cases, He was not the Son of God from eternity to eternity - only God Himself holds that distinction:

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

and: 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is also the problem of His 'conception'.

He was 'conceived' of the Holy Spirit: not transplanted, implanted or engrafted into Mary's womb: which He would have had to be, if He had existed as a spirit being of some kind before His birth.

Gabriel is quite clear on the point:

Lk 1. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

and just to make sure we don't miss the point, he adds:

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

The same Greek verb is used in both verses, completely clarifying what was going to happen to Mary.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Are you, as a new creature in Christ, still a human and yet a spiritual being, your spirit made alive in Christ? Do you have the very Spirit of God dwelling in your spirit?
I see that Jesus existed with the Father 'before the the world was'. He had to become a human in order for Him to die as a man in our place. But that does not change the fact that He was already God. 'the Word became flesh'.
I see His birth as a miracle. I also see that it is a miracle that we as men can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gregg]

This cannot be the case as I've pointed out several times now, and received no reply or rebuttal:

2 Sam 7.14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

It seems obvious that Jesus was not the Son at the point in time that this was written. I cannot see a way round this simple observation.

The Son of God was the Son of God at that point, and always will be; but the Son of God was yet to become Jesus Christ - the Name given to the Son of God clothed with a body of flesh prepared for Him.

After the Son of God descended from Heaven, into His body that was prepared for Him, then He took the Name Jesus, and Jesus Christ - and rightfully the LORD Jesus Christ. This was God's plan before creation, before the foundation of the world. At the right time, He came and died for the ungodly, for His enemies, for those at war with Him, even for those who deny Him.

 

[Asyncritus]

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What did Jesus say?

'Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven'. Right? Right.

If we were foreknown before the foundation of the world (Eph 1), then for how long has our treasure been there?

Answer, from before the foundation of the world. Right? Right.

And what form will that reward take?

Answer, some form of glorification. Right? Right.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

So our glory, has been with the Father since before the foundation of the world. Right? Right.

So when Jesus asks God to glorify Him with the glory which he had with Him since before the foundation of the world, He is simply saying that that glory was (like ours), laid up in heaven for Him.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

In other words, it was laid up in heaven for Him since the year dot, and He was now going to receive it. As Hebrews 12 says:

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And being made like unto His brethren, who will be glorified for their sufferings, He received that glory at His ascension, being (1Ti 3:16)...received up into glory.

I recommend a careful reading of 2 Cor 4 on the subject, which says inter alia

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

So the Lord's glory, which He had with the Father, was laid up with the Father from before the foundation of the world.
As is ours, which we are yet to receive. You will note that we were not there!

That, however, is not what Isaiah is talking about when he said 'my glory will I not give to another.' There is a glory which properly belongs to a King which cannot be shared with anyone or anything else.

Similarly here. The Great King has, and is entitled to a glory which, as He has stated exceedingly clearly, He will not give to another - because He has no equals. Not even His Son, whom He has exalted as far as it is possible to do.

That is the protocol of heaven.

I hope that helps.

 

[Asyncritus]

The Son of God was the Son of God at that point, and always will be; but the Son of God was yet to become Jesus Christ - the Name given to the Son of God clothed with a body of flesh prepared for Him.

Come Gregg.

I read nothing there that remotely suggests that the Son of God was to become Jesus Christ. He simply wasn't there.

If He was, then language becomes meaningless.

I WILL BE His Father means that at the time, God was not yet His Father. That's fairly simple logic, I thought.

HE WILL BE my Son also very clearly implies that He was , AT THE TIME OF WRITING, not God's Son. Because He hadn't been born as yet.

After the Son of God descended from Heaven, into His body that was prepared for Him, then He took the Name Jesus, and Jesus Christ - and rightfully the LORD Jesus Christ.

You keep on making this mistake about a body being prepared.

Can I ask, do you believe that scripture interprets scripture?

If you do, can you see (from your marginal references) that this is a quotation from Psalm 40?

Where a servant has declared that he will serve his master forever, by having his ear pierced with an awl to the doorpost of the gate?

The word 'body' is used to mean a 'slave' in several places in the NT (especially Romans 6): so Jesus is here declaring that He is God's bondservant, who will not leave God's service forever. Read Ex.21 and see that this is the truth.

This is also in accordance with several major prophecies in Isaiah, which I am certain you know :

1 ¶ Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Who is this servant?

This passage is quoted by Matthew, and applied firmly and unmistakably to the Lord Jesus:

Mt 12.17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?

Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

So, when those prophecies were being written, if Jesus was to be the Lord's Servant (as those quotes above from Isaiah say), was yet to be His Son (as both 2 Sam 7 and Psalm 2 say), was yet to be His Firstborn (as Psalm 89 says), then where does that leave your theory?

 

[Gregg]

A concise truth regarding the Trinity:

"For this reason, coming into the world, He [the Son] says, 'Sacrifice and offering You [the Father] did not desire, but You [Holy Spirit] prepared a body for Me' " (Heb 10:5).

 

[Gregg]

To deny the Deity of Jesus is to deny the power of His blood for the forgiveness and remission of sin, for our atonement to the Father through the blood of His Son. I have faith in God for the work that He has accomplished in His Son; that is through the life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ has overcome sin, and death, and the one who had power over death - that is the devil. Anyone believing in the LORD Jesus Christ has overcome these things in Him, and His righteousness has been accounted to him, and His Spirit has been given to him as a pledge of things to come.

 

[gr8grace3]

The deity of Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:8~~8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Scriptures teach that He is sovereign (Matt. 28:18a; Col. 2:10b), that He is perfect
righteousness (John 8:46a; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26; 1 Pet. 2:22; 1 John 2:21b) and
justice (John 8:16a; 2 Tim. 4:8; Psa. 9:8; Deut. 32:4; Rev. 15:3b). Furthermore,
the attribute of love is ascribed to Him (John 13:34; Rom. 5:8; Eph. 3:19; 1 John
4:9-10) as well as eternal life (1 Tim. 1:17; 1 John 5:11), omniscience (Luke 11:17;
John 2:24-25; 6:64; 21:17), omnipresence (Matt. 18:20; Prov. 15:3), omnipotence
(John 1:3, 10; 5:21; 1 Cor. 1:23-24; Phil. 3:21; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 1:8), immutability
(Mal. 3:6; Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8) and veracity (John 1:14; 14:6a; 1 John 3:16).
The Word of God presents Jesus Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of the
universe (John 1:3, 10; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:3, 10). His deity is referred to in that
He is said to have authority to forgive sins (Matt. 9:6; Luke 5:24; Col. 3:13). He
has the power to raise the dead (John 5:21; 6:40; 11:25).
The Bible teaches that all judgment belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:22;
1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:11-14), and that He receives worship from
both men and angels (Psa. 99:5; Phil. 2:10; Rev. 5:13-14). In His Deity always
occupied a place of equality and fellowship with God the Father and God the Holy
Spirit. The Lord Jesus Christ as God was equal with the Father (John 10:30, 37-38;

 

[Gregg]

A concise truth regarding the Trinity:

"For this reason, coming into the world, He [the Son] says, 'Sacrifice and offering You [the Father] did not desire, but You [Holy Spirit] prepared a body for Me' " (Heb 10:5).

Which follows the original post of this forum, "by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God" (Heb 9:14).

A living God in deed, and in Person.

 

[Gregg]

I read nothing there that remotely suggests that the Son of God was to become Jesus Christ. He simply wasn't there.

If He was, then language becomes meaningless.

Or rather: If He was not, then the Scriptures become meaningless.