Proof of Trinity

[teddy trueblood]

Free #159 (in blue)

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Heb. 2:8, “ ‘You [God] have put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.”

But see 1 Cor. 15:27 (as noted in reply #149)!

 

[turnorburn]

teddy trueblood said

But see 1 Cor. 15:27 (as noted in reply #149)!

And we are to understand what..

Thanks..

tob

 

[Asyncritus]

Hi Free and you other guys

I note that absolutely NO-ONE has attempted to answer the most serious problem that faces a trinitarian, which I have raised a couple of times in previous posts.

We may argue about Php2 and Jn 1 till the cows come home, but none of these arguments touches the REAL BIG PROBLEM. Once this one is solved, the others fall neatly into line.

So I'm looking to you for answers, or even AN answer.

Problem

God CANNOT sin.

God CANNOT be tempted with evil.

Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED.

Jesus WAS TEMPTED TO SIN (in all points like as we are).

Therefore, Jesus CANNOT BE, AND WAS NEVER God.

He NEVER claimed to be God, not even when He had the most glorious opportunity to do so (Jn 8 and Jn 10). How could He?


If He was God, then he could not have sinned.

Then, His 'conquest of sin' was no conquest at all. Because He couldn't lose.

Therefore, as an example to us, the whole thing was a complete failure.

But it wasn't.

I have a Lord who defeated the sin that I cannot. He is a worthy Leader, the Captain of my salvation. I can look to Him for help, because He can be touched with the feelings of my infirmity.

If he couldn't sin, then He can't be touched with the feelings of my infirmity. He doesn't know what it's all about.

His sacrifice was therefore no sacrifice at all - just a deception, designed to con us.

Is that really what you believe?

 

[Asyncritus]

9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.
11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

The bolded words finish your case.

Jesus cannot be the Father. Isn't that obvious?

Since a believer is IN Christ, does that make him Christ?

 

[Asyncritus]

It says very plainly that they were dead. When one dies, their natural body and senses die with them. Yet we see that they could see, hear, speak, and be thirsty too, lol. So this had to be spiritual senses. What's a guy to do? Oh! Here it is!:

Hey Ed, what happens to people after they die?

When are they 'carried by the angels' anywhere? (Try Matt 24: 31 for a big hint!)

 

[Edward]

Hey Ed, what happens to people after they die?

When are they 'carried by the angels' anywhere? (Try Matt 24: 31 for a big hint!)

Well, as I understand it, the body goes to the earth (is buried) and the spirit of the man is...I'm not sure. It is said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, but in the OT (at least) they were sent or taken to Abrahams bosom. To wait for the Lord and His coming. It is supposed that Jesus emptied Abrahams Bosom while His flesh body was dead for the 3 days. Does it still work like that under the new covenant? I'm not sure.

At the second coming, or after the millenial reign the Angels will gather the spirits/souls from the four winds...from one end of heaven to the other. So perhaps some are already with the Lord and some are not.

I have heard it said that it is scriptural that even now while fleshy body is alive, that we are seated beside/with Christ in heaven. There seem to be aspects of the spiritual realm that are not understood yet as to the dynamics of how it works and what is possible.

 

[Randy]

But here is the problem. I have given several passages which lead to the only logical conclusion that Jesus, or rather the Son/the Word, has always existed. Jesus could not have come into being prior to the creation events in Gen. 1 without contradicting those passages. It doesn't matter as to when you move the coming into being of the Son, the contradiction will remain if it is said he came into being, or that there was a time when he did not exist. Not to mention, then his coming into being would have been the beginning of creation, not the creation of the heavens and the earth. There simply is no biblical support for such a position.

The only Logical conclusion is that Jesus has always been the Son. The firstborn of all creation. I notice that you continue to sidestep my questions. Jesus was glorified by the Father. He received authority from the Father. He has a place on His Fathers throne. He consistently states the Father is "HIS GOD". There is only ONE God. Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated the Father was greater then Him. Jesus stated He remained in the Fathers love by always doing what pleases the Father in the same context we were to remain in HIs Love by keeping His commands. Jesus is not the fullness. It is clearly written the Fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. Wouldn't a God who always was be that fullness? (Father) The Father is in the Son and Jesus does nothing by Himself. Any creation was the Father creating through the Son.


So Jesus created the Father and the Angels? Why then did God have to command His angels to worship the Son when the firstborn was brought into the world? Why then did Jesus state "The Father and HIS angels" if Jesus created them? Jesus was clearly given authority over all except the Father by the Father. Gods who always were don't need to be given anything. And again there is only ONE God.

If Jesus always was and always was God and not Gods firstborn how then did He become the Son?
Jesus called the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"?


John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus is His Glory -He calls the Father HIS God.

“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of the holy one, the true one,
who has the key of David,
who opens and no one will shut,
who shuts and no one opens:

8 “I know your works. Look, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. 11 I am coming soon; hold fast to what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 If you conquer, I will make you a pillar in the temple of my God; you will never go out of it. I will write on you the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.


Sorry to disappoint but Jesus has always been a Son. "The Firstborn of all creation"

 

[turnorburn]

Asyncritus said:

Therefore, Jesus CANNOT BE, AND WAS NEVER God.

John chapter one says Jesus is the living word of God

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What your teaching is clearly heresy.. "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.. "The Word was with God and the Word was God" Who taught you this doctrine that Jesus isn't God?

tob

 

[Asyncritus]

Problem

God CANNOT sin.

God CANNOT be tempted with evil.

Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED.

Jesus WAS TEMPTED TO SIN (in all points like as we are).

Therefore, Jesus CANNOT BE, AND WAS NEVER God.

He NEVER claimed to be God, not even when He had the most glorious opportunity to do so (Jn 8 and Jn 10). How could He?


If He was God, then he could not have sinned.

Then, His 'conquest of sin' was no conquest at all. Because He couldn't lose.

Therefore, as an example to us, the whole thing was a complete failure.

But it wasn't.

I have a Lord who defeated the sin that I cannot. He is a worthy Leader, the Captain of my salvation. I can look to Him for help, because He can be touched with the feelings of my infirmity.

If he couldn't sin, then He can't be touched with the feelings of my infirmity. He doesn't know what it's all about.

His sacrifice was therefore no sacrifice at all - just a deception, designed to con us.

Is that really what you believe?

You aren't addressing THE REAL PROBLEM tob.

When are you going to try?

 

[Free]

The bolded words finish your case.

Jesus cannot be the Father. Isn't that obvious?

Since a believer is IN Christ, does that make him Christ?

Who is this addressed to? I haven't seen anyone in here arguing the Oneness/modalism position.

 

[Free]

Problem

God CANNOT sin.

God CANNOT be tempted with evil.

Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED.

Jesus WAS TEMPTED TO SIN (in all points like as we are).

Therefore, Jesus CANNOT BE, AND WAS NEVER God.

He NEVER claimed to be God, not even when He had the most glorious opportunity to do so (Jn 8 and Jn 10). How could He?


If He was God, then he could not have sinned.

Then, His 'conquest of sin' was no conquest at all. Because He couldn't lose.

Therefore, as an example to us, the whole thing was a complete failure.

But it wasn't.

I have a Lord who defeated the sin that I cannot. He is a worthy Leader, the Captain of my salvation. I can look to Him for help, because He can be touched with the feelings of my infirmity.

If he couldn't sin, then He can't be touched with the feelings of my infirmity. He doesn't know what it's all about.

His sacrifice was therefore no sacrifice at all - just a deception, designed to con us.

Is that really what you believe?

You aren't addressing THE REAL PROBLEM tob.

When are you going to try?

I either have addresses it or my reply is not quite finished and sitting in Word. So don't fret, a reply is coming. And of course there is much that you have not answered, still preferring instead to erroneously pit Scripture against Scripture.

 

[WIP]

The bolded words finish your case.

Jesus cannot be the Father. Isn't that obvious?

Since a believer is IN Christ, does that make him Christ?

Like I said. He's pitchin'. We're not catchin'.

If the Christ, Jesus, is not God then we are all in a world of hurt because….
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[Asyncritus]

???????

 

[Free]

The only Logical conclusion is that Jesus has always been the Son.

While they do imply that he has always been the Son, the stronger point is that there never was a time when he didn't exist. That is an inescapable conclusion, unless one reads things into the text which aren't there.

The firstborn of all creation.

This has been dealt with several times. A legitimate biblical use of "firstborn" speaks of the rights of one who is firstborn, of preeminence, without at all meaning referring to a coming into existence.

I notice that you continue to sidestep my questions. Jesus was glorified by the Father. He received authority from the Father. He has a place on His Fathers throne. He consistently states the Father is "HIS GOD". There is only ONE God. Jesus called the Father the One true God. Jesus stated the Father was greater then Him. Jesus stated He remained in the Fathers love by always doing what pleases the Father in the same context we were to remain in HIs Love by keeping His commands. Jesus is not the fullness. It is clearly written the Fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. Wouldn't a God who always was be that fullness? (Father) The Father is in the Son and Jesus does nothing by Himself.

I have not side-stepped anything and have addressed such erroneous arguments more than once in this thread. My whole point throughout this thread has been that this typical anti-trinitarian rhetoric pits Scripture against Scripture. It ignores what is stated in Phil 2:5-8 as well as John 1:1-3, Col 1:16-17, and 1 Cor 8:6. Not to mention many other passages which speak of Jesus being God. He is eternally the God-man, truly God and truly man.

I have never denied the humanity of Jesus nor his willful subjection to the Father. This is precisely what the doctrine of the Trinity takes into account, while also taking into account the clear biblical teaching of the full deity of Jesus, something anti-trinitarians must ignore.

Any creation was the Father creating through the Son.

And that is precisely what I have been saying! The only logical conclusion of which is that the Son could not have also been one of those created things. You have just implicitly said so yourself!

So Jesus created the Father and the Angels?

No, of course not. No one is making such an argument.

Why then did God have to command His angels to worship the Son when the firstborn was brought into the world?

The better question is: why would God have his angels worship one who isn't God? Not to mention you cannot ignore what else is said in that context:

Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,"Let all God's angels worship him."
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. (ESV)

The Father calling the Son "God." There is a lot being said in Heb. 1 and we simply cannot pick which parts we want to believe.

Why then did Jesus state "The Father and HIS angels" if Jesus created them? Jesus was clearly given authority over all except the Father by the Father. Gods who always were don't need to be given anything. And again there is only ONE God.

Again, the Son subjected himself to the Father when he was born as a man. This has all been discussed in reference to Phil 2.

As for there being only one God, no one is disputing this. That is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity.

If Jesus always was and always was God and not Gods firstborn how then did He become the Son?
Jesus called the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"?

Again, look up the definitions of "firstborn" and see the discussion on Phil 2. This has all been discussed at length.

Not to mention your definition of firstborn contradicts your previous statement: "Any creation was the Father creating through the Son."

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus is His Glory -He calls the Father HIS God.

And yet in the very same breath states that he had shared the Father's glory "before the world began." This is obviously a reference to a "time" prior to the beginning of creation. Therefore, again, the only logical conclusion is that the Son was not created.

“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of the holy one, the true one,
who has the key of David,
who opens and no one will shut,
who shuts and no one opens:

8 “I know your works. Look, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. 11 I am coming soon; hold fast to what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 If you conquer, I will make you a pillar in the temple of my God; you will never go out of it. I will write on you the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

Yes. And?

Sorry to disappoint but Jesus has always been a Son. "The Firstborn of all creation"

I haven't denied any of that, so I am far from disappointed. The problem is that you continue to ignore what those statements actually mean biblically.

 

[Randy]

While they do imply that he has always been the Son, the stronger point is that there never was a time when he didn't exist. That is an inescapable conclusion, unless one reads things into the text which aren't there.

Then I guess you are going to have to see Him as someone who has always been the Son yet somehow has always existed and somehow is distinct from the the Father yet is true God from True God and there is only One God. Even though Jesus has His own Spirit and no God will be formed after the Father. In other words a "mystery" the churches reasoning. I don't believe it was that way in the beginning of the church. I don't see the stronger point as someone who always was. In fact I think scripture shows God ordained who Jesus is (the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him) and glorified the Son He set above all. Even the angels of God. Jesus also stated He received authority. That doesn't suggest someone who has no beginning and is the living God. Sounds like a Son to me.



Randy

 

[turnorburn]

edited
When and where did you learn this doctrine?

tob

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 5:14
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

IMHO God made our natural senses. Satan tried to convince Eve to rely on untrained senses to eat of the tree of good and evil (our nerve networks look alot like trees). Only with Holy Spirit can we have true work done inside us to will and do of his good pleasure. Holy Spirit leads us into truth. Teaching us is a full time job. LOL. We start out with 24 cranial nerves, but cast down vain imaginations (even some of the gates of the physical Jerusalem are closed).

Our natural man is wretched, and requires a daily death of certain carnal things. The New Jerusalem has 12 gates and reflects the things we put to death. IMHO our new birth does support a change. Our mind serves God, but the flesh is not totally changed till the last trump.

You do note the IMHOs. I am just back to the seeing God in the things he made. Romans 1:18-20

We are made in the image of God. Shadows and types are hard to pin down at times. It just strains my mind to read the last few chapters of the book of Job. God answers with physical creation facts (in order to talk to Job--- and by extension us). Job's friends always answered with high sounding answers, but God said they were wrong.

I know I sound carnal. I am just trying to use the book. I catch flack at times.

 

[Free]

Then I guess you are going to have to see Him as someone who has always been the Son yet somehow has always existed and somehow is distinct from the the Father yet is true God from True God and there is only One God. Even though Jesus has His own Spirit and no God will be formed after the Father. In other words a "mystery" the churches reasoning.

Are you suggesting that the Trinitarian position posits that Jesus was a God formed after the Father?

I don't believe it was that way in the beginning of the church. I don't see the stronger point as someone who always was. In fact I think scripture shows God ordained who Jesus is (the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him) and glorified the Son He set above all. Even the angels of God. Jesus also stated He received authority. That doesn't suggest someone who has no beginning and is the living God. Sounds like a Son to me.

And yet in all of this, you have given nothing but your opinion. You have not once shown how my reasoning is not sound; you have not shown my arguments to be false.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.(ESV)

Not one single thing that was made, was made without the Word (the Son). Therefore, it is logically impossible for the Son to have been made.

P1. Without the Son was not any thing made that was made.
P2. If the Son was made, then at least one thing would have been made without the Son.
C. Therefore, the Son could not have been made.

Or,

P3. There is not one thing that exists that didn't come into existence without the Son.
P4. If there was a time when the Son did not exist, then at least one thing came into existence without the Son.
C2. Therefore, there was not a time when the Son did not exist.

It's been a while since I've done a syllogism, but there you go. Please show me where my reasoning is wrong.

 

[Randy]

Are you suggesting that the Trinitarian position posits that Jesus was a God formed after the Father?


And yet in all of this, you have given nothing but your opinion. You have not once shown how my reasoning is not sound; you have not shown my arguments to be false.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.(ESV)

Not one single thing that was made, was made without the Word (the Son). Therefore, it is logically impossible for the Son to have been made.

P1. Without the Son was not any thing made that was made.
P2. If the Son was made, then at least one thing would have been made without the Son.
C. Therefore, the Son could not have been made.

Or,

P3. There is not one thing that exists that didn't come into existence without the Son.
P4. If there was a time when the Son did not exist, then at least one thing came into existence without the Son.
C2. Therefore, there was not a time when the Son did not exist.

It's been a while since I've done a syllogism, but there you go. Please show me where my reasoning is wrong.

What was made according to scripture? (genesis)

I showed you were you are wrong but you refuse to answer the question.
Jesus called the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God then how do you believe in One God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"?


Showing me scripture that states Jesus is God does not refute my position as the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him and therefore in that context "Jesus is the image of the living God "and the exact representation of Gods being" All that the Father is. The fullness was given and Jesus is the Firstborn then He is not God but has alway been the Son. Jesus is not that fullness. The Father is in the Son.


So despite all that Jesus stated (The Father is greater and is His God) you hinge everything on what you state above. I can read what was created. (Genesis) Neither the angels of God nor the son are listed in the aspects of the creation as defined by scripture which starts "In the Beginning"

And what about John 1? What is the word of God? The word of the Father. Hebrews 1:1-2 even Rev was given to the Son by the Father Rev 1:1
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.



Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Problem

God CANNOT sin.

God CANNOT be tempted with evil.

Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED.

Jesus WAS TEMPTED TO SIN (in all points like as we are).

Therefore, Jesus CANNOT BE, AND WAS NEVER God.

He NEVER claimed to be God, not even when He had the most glorious opportunity to do so (Jn 8 and Jn 10). How could He?


If He was God, then he could not have sinned.

Then, His 'conquest of sin' was no conquest at all. Because He couldn't lose.

Therefore, as an example to us, the whole thing was a complete failure.

But it wasn't.

I have a Lord who defeated the sin that I cannot. He is a worthy Leader, the Captain of my salvation. I can look to Him for help, because He can be touched with the feelings of my infirmity.

If he couldn't sin, then He can't be touched with the feelings of my infirmity. He doesn't know what it's all about.

His sacrifice was therefore no sacrifice at all - just a deception, designed to con us.

Is that really what you believe?

You aren't addressing THE REAL PROBLEM tob.

When are you going to try?

I haven't looked in here for a bit and, frankly, I'm disappointed this string is still active. The answer to this issue is grounded in truth and Phil. 2:7.

The first thing is that we, man, are to live by the gift of faith and not knowledge. No human, male or female, can give a reasonable explanation of the Trinity, such is a foolish idea rooted in vanity.

Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary, emptied Himself of His divinity before He was born a man. This is attested to by Paul, the only disciple to spend three years at the feet of Jesus for one on one instruction. Paul knew the Son of God, likely, better than any other man to ever live and because the only Almighty God has commissioned him to record certain truths for Him, he can be trusted in what he says.

When the Son of God determined to pay the price for our sins and emptied Himself of His divine powers, it made Him no less the creator. I've bumped heads with you in the past I believe but you were not then and you are not now cute the way you corkscrew words, my friend.

If you blow up on me you already know I will drop you like a hot potato so, let's keep this civil, ok?

If I buy a 56 Mercury but I pull the old Y shaped V8 and install a Chevy 427 and a Borg Warner T10 with a 411 rear end, I still have a 56 Merc. The same, in this case, is true of the Son of God. Jesus is a man with the Spirit of the Son of God, dwelling in Him.

You can discuss this with a mature Christian, like myself, 'til the Rapture and the truth that we must believe by faith will remain. The only things this false argument of yours can ever accomplish is to keep some out of Heaven... including yourself?