Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Proof of Trinity

That is incorrect. There is no such statement in scripture: but perhaps you'd like to correct me.

What we do have are statements such as:

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.




Can't you see that this is absolutely self-contradictory? How can that which is divine become the absolute opposite of divine i.e. human?

How can that which is incapable of sin become capable of sinning?

How can that which is incapable of being tempted become temptable?



Nice sounding theological nonsense. See above for the reasons for saying so.



More theological nonsense. When will you guys wake up to the fact that the impossible will forever remain impossible, most notably in this case?

God cannot sin. That is an impossibility.

God cannot be tempted with evil. That is an impossibility.

Jesus could do both : be tempted, and sin. Therefore, He could not be God.

What you don't seem to realise is that if Jesus was God, and could sin, then God the Father could sin. Which is an absolutely horrifying thought, but is a direct consequence of the doctrine of the trinity.

I really don't envy your position on this.
John 2:18-22
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 
I just peeked in to see if anyone was allowed to disagree with any part of the trinity ‘proofs’ yet and was surprised to see that some have actually been allowed to present some non-Trinitarian evidence. I gave up in exasperation some time ago, but a quick look here makes me wonder if a non-trinitarian CAN post without interference/warnings/deletions. So,

I read Reply #30 by Doulos Iesou where he wrote:

“Remember, the idea of being a "firstborn" in Jewish society meant a lot. There are certain rights and responsibilities that are conferred on the firstborns as well as status, even receiving twice the inheritance. And the Greek word πρωτότοκος properly means first (πρωτό translit. proto) in time (τοκος translit tokos), so it does not necessarily entail that Jesus had a beginning, but rather that he is pre-existed before creation. The "firstborn" is a title of status and responsibility over creation,”
…………….

If I missed a post explaining this, I apologize. But I had never heard that prototokos meant πρωτό (‘first’) and τοκος (‘in time’).

When I look up tokos, I find that it means “birth, offspring” (Thayer); “a bringing forth, birth,’ (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance, Holman, 1981); “a bringing forth, childbirth, parturition” (Liddell and Scott).

So where do we find this new definition of “in time” for tokos?
 
I just peeked in to see if anyone was allowed to disagree with any part of the trinity ‘proofs’ yet and was surprised to see that some have actually been allowed to present some non-Trinitarian evidence. I gave up in exasperation some time ago, but a quick look here makes me wonder if a non-trinitarian CAN post without interference/warnings/deletions. So,

I read Reply #30 by Doulos Iesou where he wrote:

“Remember, the idea of being a "firstborn" in Jewish society meant a lot. There are certain rights and responsibilities that are conferred on the firstborns as well as status, even receiving twice the inheritance. And the Greek word πρωτότοκος properly means first (πρωτό translit. proto) in time (τοκος translit tokos), so it does not necessarily entail that Jesus had a beginning, but rather that he is pre-existed before creation. The "firstborn" is a title of status and responsibility over creation,”
…………….

If I missed a post explaining this, I apologize. But I had never heard that prototokos meant πρωτό (‘first’) and τοκος (‘in time’).

When I look up tokos, I find that it means “birth, offspring” (Thayer); “a bringing forth, birth,’ (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance, Holman, 1981); “a bringing forth, childbirth, parturition” (Liddell and Scott).

So where do we find this new definition of “in time” for tokos?
 
I just peeked in to see if anyone was allowed to disagree with any part of the trinity ‘proofs’ yet and was surprised to see that some have actually been allowed to present some non-Trinitarian evidence. I gave up in exasperation some time ago, but a quick look here makes me wonder if a non-trinitarian CAN post without interference/warnings/deletions. So,

I read Reply #30 by Doulos Iesou where he wrote:

“Remember, the idea of being a "firstborn" in Jewish society meant a lot. There are certain rights and responsibilities that are conferred on the firstborns as well as status, even receiving twice the inheritance. And the Greek word πρωτότοκος properly means first (πρωτό translit. proto) in time (τοκος translit tokos), so it does not necessarily entail that Jesus had a beginning, but rather that he is pre-existed before creation. The "firstborn" is a title of status and responsibility over creation,”
…………….

If I missed a post explaining this, I apologize. But I had never heard that prototokos meant πρωτό (‘first’) and τοκος (‘in time’).

When I look up tokos, I find that it means “birth, offspring” (Thayer); “a bringing forth, birth,’ (New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance, Holman, 1981); “a bringing forth, childbirth, parturition” (Liddell and Scott).

So where do we find this new definition of “in time” for tokos?


The firstborn was the eldest child born whether that brought more rights (status) or not.

Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation. The Father is His God as we all can read His (Jesus's) words. The fullness was not the Son but the fullness was "pleased" to dwell IN the Son. (given not born) Jesus testified that the Father was in Him. I believe Paul was using fullness to signify all the Fullness of Gods Deity. -All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All the fullness (abilities) of God. Jesus was also given ALL authority but Paul made the distinction that didn't mean Jesus was above the One who put Jesus over all. Jesus testified to truth. The Father is greater then Him and He has a place on His Fathers throne. Jesus remains in the Fathers love because He always does what pleases the Father. Likewise we are to remain in the Lords love by obeying His commands.

God put the firstborn over even His Angels.

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.

The Church of the Firstborn

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly[g] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Since Jesus is all that the Father is He can be called God in that context and in fact is called both God and Son. I refer to Jesus as Lord. I use the term God to signify the Father.


Randy
 
Trinity
Romans 1:18-20
The sun is the source of energy in his chosen area

Light is a form of energy that is difficult to define

The moon gives no light except what it is given by the sun

Father, Son, Holy Spirit seen in their creation.

eddif
 
John 2:18-22
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

In English we use “rise” and “raise” with two distinctly different meanings. “Rise” is what a person or thing does by itself to itself: “I rise every morning at dawn;” “the sun will rise soon.”

“Raise,” on the other hand, is what a person does to some other object or person: “He raised the flag.” “The flag was raised.” The object does not “rise” by itself in this case, but is actually “raised” by someone else! If “raise” is to be used with one’s own self as the object, it must be so stated or plainly understood: “I raised myself so I could see better”!

(“Rise” and “risen” is used for persons who are alive (even those who have been resurrected) who stand up: 1 Thess. 4:16 (RSV) “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise [ἀναστήσονται<450> lit. 'will stand up'] first”; Luke 9:19 (RSV) “And they answered, ‘John the Baptist; but others say, Elijah; and others, that one of the old prophets has risen [ἀνέστη<450> ‘stood up’].’” )

An examination of all the passages dealing with Christ’s resurrection shows that this is also the intent of nearly all of them. Therefore, when we see “God, having raised up his servant” (Acts 3:26, RSV), we understand God as being one person who raised up someone else (His servant, Jesus). And at Gal. 1:1 we see - “God the Father, who raised [Jesus Christ] from the dead.”

The noted trinitarian NT Greek expert Dr. Alfred Marshall writes:

“our Lord ‘was raised’ as are the dead generally (they do not ‘rise’). See 1 Corinthians ch. 15, etc.” - p. xxxvi, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980.

We also see at Eph. 1:17, 19, 20 -

“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory ..., according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand [cf. Ps. 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34-36; and Ro. 8:34] in the heavenly places” - RSV.

And 1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -

“how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God [John 17:3] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus” - RSV. Also see Acts 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Ro. 4:24; 6:4; 8:11; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; 2 Cor. 4:14; Col. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:21; etc.

Probably the only place you could find where there appears to be a statement that the Son raised himself (in contrast to the many scriptures to the contrary) would be John 2:19-22.

John 2:19, 21, 22 -

“Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ .... But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised [not ‘he raised himself’] from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.” - RSV.

Rather than ignoring this scripture, since at first glance it seems to contradict all the many others about Jesus being raised up by the Father alone, we should make every attempt to understand it in agreement with the other scriptures on the subject.

Obviously Jesus was speaking figuratively here, whereas the other scriptures concerning his being raised are to be understood literally. Figurative Bible language often leads to difficulties in interpretation.

However, Jesus was speaking figuratively of his actual body which his enemies really did destroy (“destroy this temple and ...”). Therefore, one understanding might be that Jesus was merely stating that after the Father had already returned Jesus’ life to a body (“raised” him to life) Jesus was then physically able to raise up that life-filled body: He literally was able to raise himself to his feet again; he raised his own body up from a prone position!

Another possibility could be that because of his perfect faithfulness and obedience to God, Jesus himself provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead. It might be said that, in a sense, because of his faithful course in life, Jesus himself was responsible for God’s resurrection of him.

A similar style of expression may be seen at Luke 8:48 when Jesus had healed a woman he said to her: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she actually heal herself, then? No; it was power from God the Father through Christ that healed her because of her faith!

Even noted trinitarian NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson tells us,

“Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, p. 183.

It should be noted that at least one Bible student has suggested that the figurative "body" Jesus was to raise up was probably a parallel to the one that had been destroyed. The temple stood for the "body" of God's followers. After it had been removed, Jesus built up a new "body" of God's Christian followers which, in effect, replaced the old "body."

But whatever the answer to any possible confusion generated from this single figurative usage at John 2:19, we must not ignore the many clear, indisputable,literal statements which clearly state that the Father alone actually raised Jesus to life.
 
So let me summarise this statement of yours. There are 3 segments of Jesus' life as recorded in the scriptures, and the one that you claim is not.


His Future Role


1 He will return from heaven to judge the world


2 All judgment has been committed to Him by the Father


3 He will reign as King over all the earth, sitting on the throne of David his father, representing God to all the nations, and teaching them of His will and purpose.


4 That reign will continue until:


1 Cor 15.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


27 For he [God] hath put all things under his [Jesus'] feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him [ie God the Father].


28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


So, in His life here, He was subject to, subordinate to, obedient to the Father. There is, therefore no question of equality while He was here.


At present, He is at the right hand of God the Father, and all authority in heaven and in earth has been granted to Him by God the Father.


There is, therefore, no question of present equality with God the Father.


In the future, He will be God's anointed and appointed King over all the earth, ruling in righteousness on God's behalf, as His representative, and will continue to be so until 'the end', when He will be subordinate to the Father as shown above.


Thus far, we are probably in agreement.


But you note, that in His ministry, in His current exaltation, and in His future Kingship over the world, He remains as always, subordinate to the Father.


This, of course is entirely contradicted by the creeds, and presumably, therefore, by your own current position.

For the sake of clarification, Jesus is currently reigning as King, as verse 25 shows: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

As for this passage in 1 Cor. 15, it is a difficult one, but there are ways of understanding it that are perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. Firstly, in keeping with the larger context of 1 Cor., Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past, which makes him co-equal with the Father, as he is God in nature. The logic there is inescapable. So regardless of what understanding we come to for 1 Cor. 15:28, we cannot take it as stating that the Son is completely inferior to the Father in all respects.

Functionally, according to what is referred to as the Economic Trinity (that aspect of the Trinity which relates to creation, especially for its redemption), the Son is subordinate to the Father. No one is denying that. We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature but taking on the form of a man, submitted himself to the Father, unto death for our salvation and the redemption of all creation. This is absolutely key in understanding how the Son is subject to the Father. And more importantly, difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pg 66).
 
Free,

Here are the points to which, as I see it, you have no refutation to offer.

Co-Equality

The creeds (and I note that you have not mentioned them in your responses) are extremely emphatic on the point of the co-equality of the members of the trinity.

The scriptures on the other hand are even more emphatic that God the Father is Number One, and Jesus is Number Two in the divine hierarchy. I have provided innumerable quotations which state exactly that, only to hear that those passages and concepts do not contradict the trinity!

If they don't, I don't know what will.
Then you should step out of the discussion as you don't know what the doctrine of the Trinity states. I have shown how the NT clearly makes the case for equality of the Son and Father by attributing to the Son characteristics which belong to God alone. Since one of the attributes of God is that he has always existed and was not, nor cannot be, created, the Son cannot have been created as some sort of "god" and is, therefore, God.

Jesus NEVER claims to be God

You have firmly aligned yourself with those wicked Jews who were seeking to destroy Him by totally and deliberately misinterpreting the statement 'Before Abraham was, I am' . I have shown you the refutation of this argument previously, but you will not hear.
I can't say that I have seen it. Regardless, Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews, and he used terms that they were familiar with. And in this case, he claimed to be the "I Am." If he was merely saying he had existed before Abraham, they would have thought him mad not blasphemous.

Incidentally, even there He does not claim to be God, and ends the discussion by stating that He is the Son of God. Remember? You are saying the Jews were right, and adding that fault to the mistaken support of your doctrine.
Please follow the discussion. I have also shown that the Jews understood Jesus' claim to be the Son of God as Jesus claiming equality with God, for which, once again, they try to stone him for blasphemy. I have also clearly stated, using your reasoning mind you, that the Son of God is, in fact, a term that denotes the divinity of Jesus.

You really need to provide some better, clearer, incontrovertible evidence of your claim that Jesus claims to be God. Of course, you can't do so, because there isn't any.
I have done so. You need to show how my arguments are in error before declaring that there isn't any evidence.

Jesus' History

While here, He was subordinate to God, and said so many times - at least 78 of which are in John's gospel. Remember those?

Right now, sitting at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, He is subordinate to the God, who has elevated Him to His right hand.

When He returns, He will be subordinate to God even unto and at the end.

You can dispute none of these points.
Please, tell me, how does one dispute something they agree with?

If all that is true, and it is, then can I ask you, where is this equality with God? If He was not equal when He was here, is not equal right now, and will not be equal when He returns, then when?

And if equality is non-existent, as it surely is, then if you agree with these points, you have effectively abandoned the doctrine of the trinity as expressed in the creeds.
One thing you continually forget, or don't know: the doctrine of the Trinity rightly upholds both the true humanity and true deity of Jesus. As I have stated before, you are pitting Scripture against Scripture, denying, ignoring, or otherwise reinterpreting those passages which speak of his deity. You make passages which speak of his deity subject to those which speak of his humanity, without any biblical basis for doing so.

The Effective Ruin of Christ's Sacrifice

This is the root of your whole problem.

I stated this in the last segment of my previous reply, TO WHICH YOU HAVE UTTERLY FAILED TO REPLY. Here it is again:

God cannot sin, nor be tempted with evil. Those are axiomatic statements.

Therefore, Jesus, if He was God, could not sin, nor be tempted with evil.

That, however, is a nonsensical statement. He WAS TEMPTED IN ALL POINTS LIKE AS WE ARE, YET WITHOUT SIN.

If He wasn't tempted, and wasn't able to sin, then His sacrifice and alleged conquest of sin are meaningless and powerless. That is the irrevocable conclusion to which you are driven by your belief.

Curiously enough, I note the total absence of a response to those points when I raised them above. I can understand your difficulties - because they are completely insuperable.
But I do not deny that Jesus was truly human, as well as truly God. Jesus was tempted but that in no way means that he wasn't also God. If he was merely human, he would have sinned. Even if he didn't sin, his sacrifice would have been meaningless for everyone but himself. It would show that we are all responsible for atoning for our own sin.

If Jesus was not the God-man, his sacrifice is insufficient and we will all die in our sins if we have not lead a sinless life.
 
Immanuel does mean 'God with us' - but that does not mean that Jesus was God.

Try these, for example:

Daniel means God is Judge.

Elijah means Jehovah is God.

Isaiah means Jehovah has saved.

Want any more?
Yes. If you can show one that is the same, then you may have a point. There is a difference between a name that speaks of an attribute or action or office of God, and one that states "God with us." But seriously, I would be interested.
 
2Ki 13:5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Ac 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

1Sa 23:5 So David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their cattle, and smote them with a great slaughter. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah.

Ne 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

So 'Saviour' is not a title exclusive to God.

He sent 'saviours' to Israel.

He sent Jesus to save the world.

And so on.

No help there, guys.
There is a vast difference between "a savior" and "the Savior." If God says, and it has been shown that he does, that he is "the Savior" and apart from him there is no other savior, then clearly he means something much more significant than those in the passages you give. God is the Savior, as he clearly states he is, and since Jesus is also the Savior, as the very Scriptures you give state, then one must conclude that Jesus is in some way that very God. It is your continued inability to see the same language used of God that is used of Jesus which is a big part of your error.
 
The firstborn was the eldest child born whether that brought more rights (status) or not.

Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation. The Father is His God as we all can read His (Jesus's) words. The fullness was not the Son but the fullness was "pleased" to dwell IN the Son. (given not born) Jesus testified that the Father was in Him. I believe Paul was using fullness to signify all the Fullness of Gods Deity. -All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All the fullness (abilities) of God. Jesus was also given ALL authority but Paul made the distinction that didn't mean Jesus was above the One who put Jesus over all. Jesus testified to truth. The Father is greater then Him and He has a place on His Fathers throne. Jesus remains in the Fathers love because He always does what pleases the Father. Likewise we are to remain in the Lords love by obeying His commands.

God put the firstborn over even His Angels.

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.

The Church of the Firstborn

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly[g] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Since Jesus is all that the Father is He can be called God in that context and in fact is called both God and Son. I refer to Jesus as Lord. I use the term God to signify the Father.


Randy
But, again, "firstborn" does not necessarily mean one who is born. Looking Scripture one can see that "firstborn" can, and does, mean that one is in a position as though they were the firstborn--they have the rights of a firstborn son. In this very same respect, Col. 1:15 is stating that Jesus is pre-eminent over creation, as one who has the rights of a firstborn son. It simply cannot mean that he was literally born or begotten in the sense that at one time he never existed, as this would completely contradict verses 16 and 17.

Indeed, my point is made by the use of firstborn in verse 18. Here "firstborn" cannot mean that he is the first to rise from the dead since we see in his ministry more than one time that he raised someone from the dead. Rather, he is pre-eminent among those who are raised.
 
Yes. If you can show one that is the same, then you may have a point. There is a difference between a name that speaks of an attribute or action or office of God, and one that states "God with us." But seriously, I would be interested.

The name “Eliathah” means “God is Come” - Young’s orGod Has Come” - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 929, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;and Today‘s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 674, Bethany House, 1982.

When saying “God is with us” and similar statements, Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years, “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13).

The Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.
 
For the sake of clarification, Jesus is currently reigning as King, as verse 25 shows: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

As for this passage in 1 Cor. 15, it is a difficult one, but there are ways of understanding it that are perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. Firstly, in keeping with the larger context of 1 Cor., Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past, which makes him co-equal with the Father, as he is God in nature. The logic there is inescapable. So regardless of what understanding we come to for 1 Cor. 15:28, we cannot take it as stating that the Son is completely inferior to the Father in all respects.

Functionally, according to what is referred to as the Economic Trinity (that aspect of the Trinity which relates to creation, especially for its redemption), the Son is subordinate to the Father. No one is denying that. We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature but taking on the form of a man, submitted himself to the Father, unto death for our salvation and the redemption of all creation. This is absolutely key in understanding how the Son is subject to the Father. And more importantly, difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pg 66).

Hi, Free.
I don't understand how you get the following:

"Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past" and "We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature."

Please elucidate.
 
Hi, Free.
I don't understand how you get the following:

"Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past" and "We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature."

Please elucidate.
I have posted on these already but I will do so again as it still hasn't been addressed.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

A couple of points:

1. If "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of the Father, then "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of Jesus, or rather, the Son.
2. If "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus from being God, then "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from ever being Lord.
3. This appears to be Paul's expansion or fuller understanding of the Hebrew Shema:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Being that Paul had been a devout Jew, "a Hebrew of Hebrews," this could hardly be a coincidence. So we have Paul showing that the one Lord, who is God, consists at least of both the Father and the Son.

Whether or not one accepts point 3 is irrelevant to points 1 and 2. And it so happens, as I have stated many times, point 1 is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

As for Phil 2:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Some things worth noting:

1. Jesus was "in the form of God."
2. Yet, he "did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped," that is, something to be retained or forcibly held on to.
3. He, Jesus, "made himself nothing." (emphasis added) It follows that a) he had the power to make himself nothing, b) if he became nothing, he had been "something," and that something was his being "in the form of God," or "being in very nature God" (NIV).
4. His being made nothing is further explained as "taking the form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men" and "being found in human form." This supports the notion that he had been something, he had been "in very nature God."
5. He "being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Again, pretty self-explanatory.
6. He "was in the form of God" but took "the form of a servant," which is to say that he was "born in the likeness of men." If one wants to deny that "being in the form of God" is the same as saying "being in very nature God," then one must deny that "being found in human form" means that he was in very nature human. And now we are worse of then when we started.
 
The name “Eliathah” means “God is Come” - Young’s orGod Has Come” - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 929, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;and Today‘s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 674, Bethany House, 1982.

When saying “God is with us” and similar statements, Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years, “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13).

The Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.
And yet, as far as I can find, the only person in the Bible actually named Emmanuel (Immanuel) is Jesus. And that in the context of:

Mat 1:20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). (ESV)

Regardless of to whom Isaiah may have been immediately addressing, Matthew undeniably draws a link between the miraculous conception by God of this Savior, to the prophecy of Isaiah where this Savior will be "God with us." This is also seen in Isa. 9:6:

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

It is quite significant that "a child is born" but "a son is given."

There is very little doubt that Matthew saw both the divinity and humanity of Jesus, which is why he appealed to Isaiah 7:14.
 
For the sake of clarification, Jesus is currently reigning as King, as verse 25 shows: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

As for this passage in 1 Cor. 15, it is a difficult one, but there are ways of understanding it that are perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. Firstly, in keeping with the larger context of 1 Cor., Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past, which makes him co-equal with the Father, as he is God in nature. The logic there is inescapable. So regardless of what understanding we come to for 1 Cor. 15:28, we cannot take it as stating that the Son is completely inferior to the Father in all respects.

Functionally, according to what is referred to as the Economic Trinity (that aspect of the Trinity which relates to creation, especially for its redemption), the Son is subordinate to the Father. No one is denying that. We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature but taking on the form of a man, submitted himself to the Father, unto death for our salvation and the redemption of all creation. This is absolutely key in understanding how the Son is subject to the Father. And more importantly, difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pg 66).

Hi, Free.
I don't understand how you get the following:

"Paul has already shown in 1 Cor. 8:6 that the Son existed for eternity past" and "We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature."

Please elucidate.
I have posted on these already but I will do so again as it still hasn't been addressed.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

A couple of points:

1. If "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of the Father, then "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of Jesus, or rather, the Son.
2. If "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus from being God, then "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from ever being Lord.
3. This appears to be Paul's expansion or fuller understanding of the Hebrew Shema:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (ESV)

Being that Paul had been a devout Jew, "a Hebrew of Hebrews," this could hardly be a coincidence. So we have Paul showing that the one Lord, who is God, consists at least of both the Father and the Son.

Whether or not one accepts point 3 is irrelevant to points 1 and 2. And it so happens, as I have stated many times, point 1 is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

As for Phil 2:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Some things worth noting:

1. Jesus was "in the form of God."
2. Yet, he "did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped," that is, something to be retained or forcibly held on to.
3. He, Jesus, "made himself nothing." (emphasis added) It follows that a) he had the power to make himself nothing, b) if he became nothing, he had been "something," and that something was his being "in the form of God," or "being in very nature God" (NIV).
4. His being made nothing is further explained as "taking the form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men" and "being found in human form." This supports the notion that he had been something, he had been "in very nature God."
5. He "being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Again, pretty self-explanatory.
6. He "was in the form of God" but took "the form of a servant," which is to say that he was "born in the likeness of men." If one wants to deny that "being in the form of God" is the same as saying "being in very nature God," then one must deny that "being found in human form" means that he was in very nature human. And now we are worse of then when we started.

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (ESV)


1. If "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of the Father, then "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternalness of Jesus, or rather, the Son.



I see what you are saying and it does sound reasonable. However, “all things” does not include the Father Himself “out of” (ex) whom are “all things,” and does not indicate His eternalness. Likewise “all things” does not include Jesus (nor his God) “through whom” (di’/dia) are all things.

2. If "one God, the Father" excludes Jesus from being God, then "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from ever being Lord.

Yes, of course, “one God, the Father” excludes any other person from being God. “The Father is the appositive for “one God.”

And “one Lord” does not exclude anyone else from ever being Lord. Jesus was called “Lord” by his followers before his death as a common term of respect as were many others (kings, teachers, husbands, any person deserving respect).

The word for “Lord” is also often used as a term for the master of his slaves. Jesus became the only Lord or master to his followers when he died and became the one who bought them with the price of his blood. In that respect he became our only Lord. This does not mean that others were not still called “Lord” in the capacity defined above.

…………….
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.



But what I questioned was this statement,

“We see in Phil 2 that Jesus, being God in nature.”

Phil. 2 does not have any word that means “nature.” It does say that Jesus was in “the form [morphe] of God.” Morphe does not mean “nature” but is defined as the “outward appearance” of something. Being a heavenly person at the time he, like the angels, was a spirit person in the image of God.

You also wrote in #6: took "the form of a servant," which is to say that he was "born in the likeness of men."

Since morphe means outward appearance here also, “likeness” is a proper statement. In neither case does it imply nature. We understand from other scriptures that Jesus had the nature of men, but it is not stated here.

The word “grasped” is a mistranslation of harpagmos, the act of taking something by force. Hence the proper use of the word “robbery” (but ridiculous misuse in context) in the KJV here.

So what we have here is “who, though he was in the outward appearance of God, did not even consider the taking of equality to God by force.”

The words “who was [huparchon] in the morphe of God….” are interesting also. Huparchon literally means “under a beginning” and is never used for God in NT or LXX.

I don’t believe it was beyond Jesus’ (or the angels’) ability to go to the earth and perform miracles or become flesh. I don’t see that it has to mean he was God. In fact I believe scripture tells us that he was sent to earth by the Father.
 
But, again, "firstborn" does not necessarily mean one who is born. Looking Scripture one can see that "firstborn" can, and does, mean that one is in a position as though they were the firstborn--they have the rights of a firstborn son. In this very same respect, Col. 1:15 is stating that Jesus is pre-eminent over creation, as one who has the rights of a firstborn son. It simply cannot mean that he was literally born or begotten in the sense that at one time he never existed, as this would completely contradict verses 16 and 17.

Indeed, my point is made by the use of firstborn in verse 18. Here "firstborn" cannot mean that he is the first to rise from the dead since we see in his ministry more than one time that he raised someone from the dead. Rather, he is pre-eminent among those who are raised.

I guess will we have to disagree. Because as I stated after reading all that is written about Jesus I see Him as the Firstborn of all creation (a beginning and offspring of the Father) And I think its self evident that it was the Father who was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in His Firstborn. Gods firstborn would be a being and such a being would state "Before Abraham was born I Am"

To Me:
Father=>Son=>Angels=>The Creation (genesis) which includes mankind.

And by the way scripture doesn't state the Father always was either.
Isaiah 43:10 Jesus was born but the fullness was given. As in the fullness was "pleased" to dwell in Him. The Father is in the Son.

R.
 
Hi Free

You said that no-one else in scripture is called Emmanuel.

Someone is:

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This is a child who was going to be born in Isaiah's time who would be called Immanuel, and would be a token of God's proposed deliverance of His people.

Jesus is the greater fulfilment of that promise, as we all know from Matthew's gospel.

Therefore the name is of no significance in proving that Jesus is God, simply that He would be the sign that God would deliver His people through Him
 
There are several points about the 'firstborn' that should be mentioned.

1 That title did not mean that the person who was the physically born-first was the officially designated 'Firstborn'.

That title could be transferred to another:

De 21:15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
De 21:16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
De 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Here is a concrete example:

1 Chr. 5.1 ¶ Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s:)

Reuben was deposed in favour of Joseph.

With Christ, the situation is exactly parallel.

Israel was God's Firstborn:

Ex 4. 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Because of Israel's misbehaviour, he was deposed, and the title was given to Christ:

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Note, at the time that the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. He hadn't been born yet, and the prophecy spoke of a time yet future : I WILL MAKE HIM...

Going further back:

Adam was God's Son as the genealogy in Luke shows.

Because of his evil, he was deposed, and his place taken by Israel later on.

Because of Israel's misbehaviour they were deposed, and Christ has taken their place.

Hence, He is called 'the firstborn of all creation' since God was His Father, and He (Jesus) is worthy of the title.

The natural Israel has also been deposed by the church:

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So in fact, Col.1 does not carry any implication of the pre-existence of Christ: rather that He is worthy of being appointed the Firstborn of all creation.
 
Back
Top