Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[John S]

Sadly, Pre-Tribbers have gotten the idea that they are "special". THEY are going to be spared from persecution and death when NO ONE ever has been - not the earliest Christians - not the Jews - no one.
Whoa Johns S... that is a bit harsh... The pre tribbers i know believe it is just His timing.. Not that is about them just His timing.. Our eschatology does not make any one of us smarter better more saved then the next guy...

A TOS that has been a great help to me 2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

I am not the same Christian i was 50 years ago... We dont all grow at the same pace...

ADMIN

It was never my intention to flame anyone nor was I even looking for a response.
MOST Pre-Tribbers believe that God is going to whisk them away to save them from death and persecution. That is NOT going to happen. They will have to go through the Tribulation just like everyone else. If that seems harsh to you, then I am sorry - but the truth is the truth.
I am Sorry that Kathi was offended.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is a deception. It has already deceived people into believing that they are going to be spared - thus thinking that they are "special" because NO ONE has ever been spared like that.
"So and so is not the antichrist because I am still here".
"So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
"Therefore, so and so is not the antichrist".

THAT is the deception and, unfortunately, Pre-Tribbers have already been deceived - and face the very real possibility of being deceived until it is far too late.
Then the day will come when they will ask themselves -
What have I done?

 

[JLB]

DRS81 - When Satan is thrown into the lake of fire is when the earth will finally be cleansed and the New Earth and New Heaven will come down, where we will dwell forever with Christ.
Eugene – This is a new day, not a last day.

DRS81 - Keep in mind though, that there will still be people alive during his wrath! During the sixth trumpet in Rev 9:15, a third of mankind will die. The sixth bowl will also set the stage for the Antichrist and Armageddon.
Eugene – According to you this all comes down seven years prior to the last day.

DRS81 - After Satan is locked down in the Abyss, Jesus will then begin the 1000 year reign with Christ!! Praise Him! And we will be a part of that reign, we will be priests of God!! How glorious. Rev 20:6.
Eugene – How can the church be a part of something that is past the last day, and extends into eternity? You wrote that Jesus will reign with Christ, but I think that was just an error; should it be that we’ll reign with Christ for 1000 years? But then we run into that last day again. May I ask what the last day means to you?

Something I’m detecting in your outline sounds a might familiar or similar to Dispensations with their last days of certain ages; e.g., the Church age, the Kingdom age, etc. Thanks.

It wont be counted as day, after the resurrection, as we know and understand a day now, in the realm of time and space.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:4-6

and again -

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30


A day is regulated by the earth revolving around the sun.

In the Day, He Himself will be our light, and time will be His.

As Paul writes -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

This rest will occur during the 1000 years, which is prophetically called the Seventh Day.

The Day of rest.

Paul alludes to the fact that, during the 1000 years it will not be called Today!

He will come for us on the LAST DAY and raise us up!


JLB

 

[JLB]

It was never my intention to flame anyone nor was I even looking for a response.
MOST Pre-Tribbers believe that God is going to whisk them away to save them from death and persecution. That is NOT going to happen. They will have to go through the Tribulation just like everyone else. If that seems harsh to you, then I am sorry - but the truth is the truth.
I am Sorry that Kathi was offended.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is a deception. It has already deceived people into believing that they are going to be spared - thus thinking that they are "special" because NO ONE has ever been spared like that.
"So and so is not the antichrist because I am still here".
"So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
"Therefore, so and so is not the antichrist".

THAT is the deception and, unfortunately, Pre-Tribbers have already been deceived - and face the very real possibility of being deceived until it is far too late.
Then the day will come when they will ask themselves -
What have I done?

 

[John S]

Thank You - but unless you are a moderator, I face the very real possibility of being "reprimanded".

 

[reba]

It was never my intention to flame anyone nor was I even looking for a response.
MOST Pre-Tribbers believe that God is going to whisk them away to save them from death and persecution. That is NOT going to happen. They will have to go through the Tribulation just like everyone else. If that seems harsh to you, then I am sorry - but the truth is the truth.
I am Sorry that Kathi was offended.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is a deception. It has already deceived people into believing that they are going to be spared - thus thinking that they are "special" because NO ONE has ever been spared like that.
"So and so is not the antichrist because I am still here".
"So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
"Therefore, so and so is not the antichrist".

THAT is the deception and, unfortunately, Pre-Tribbers have already been deceived - and face the very real possibility of being deceived until it is far too late.
Then the day will come when they will ask themselves -
What have I done?

It was never my intention to flame anyone nor was I even looking for a response.

I absolutely believe that !

Thank you for the pleasant reply Your attitude is appreciated
When all we have is a screen we can not see the eyes and heart it can make mountains out of molehills...
admin

 

[reba]

I dont post here much because of responsibilities ... I do miss playing here .
I am most likely the most post tribulation person around here...
A couple thoughts for thinking DRS81

What time is there after the last day?
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rom_1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Not looking for a response .... Reba

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Enjoy your time here guys Welcome to our new members

 

[ezrider]

Can any preterist tell me at what point in time did the rapture become imminent ?

On the day of Pentecost it became imminent.

 

[DRS81]

DRS81May I ask what the last day means to you?

Hi Eugene. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by the term, "the last day".

 

[DRS81]

Kathi Hi Kathi and good evening,

what are your thoughts on post 98..http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-is-false-along-with-a-question.54087/page-5

Let's discuss.

 

[DRS81]

Hi John S. I agree pre-trib is false.

The peace treaty will occur at the middle of tribulation, not the beginning. Are you knowledgeable with Jubilee Calender math. Do you understand that in Daniel 9:27, that a week is referring to seven years?

John S ..

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother JLB, doesn't the following two statements you posted seem to be ambiguous? Why would there need be a raising of us on the LAST DAY, a part of the all saints if we're already with Christ.

Zec 14:4 Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

He will come for us on the LAST DAY and raise us up!

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

from biblegateway: "Zechariah 14:4
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
4 On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south."

 

[Eugene]

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. Revelation 14:1-5 (ESV)

Dear Doulos Iesou, I don't see anything about the Rapture here, perhaps you can elaborate from Scripture.

Rev 14:1. How do you reckon that the 144,000 are seen in heaven without being caught up?

 

[Eugene]

Hi Eugene. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by the term, "the last day".

You said "The people who are beheaded in the great trib are also those who will be in the rapture on the last day at the last trump."

Post #90 http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...long-with-a-question.54087/page-5#post-938667 Thanks.

 

[DRS81]

You said "The people who are beheaded in the great trib are also those who will be in the rapture on the last day at the last trump."

Post #90 http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...long-with-a-question.54087/page-5#post-938667 Thanks.

I said it because you had said it first, still not sure what it means. Haha. Oh well.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Rev 14:1. How do you reckon that the 144,000 are seen in heaven without being caught up?

at the risk of posting without the usual references (they are posted elsewhere(in this forum, and now below), and can be found also links that explain it quite clearly, but not here for now - later look if you really seek the truth)
the 144,000 are executed (beheaded) for their faith. NOT, very particularly NOT, saved from being martyred. they are martyrs. pure.


Who are the 144,000 in Revelation? - Yahoo
Since both chapters follow Revelation 4, the 144,000 are among the Tribulation Saints, ... they would have died as martyrs for their faith.https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=...

 

[Eugene]

I said it because you had said it first, still not sure what it means. Haha. Oh well.

Well, please allow me to ask it another way if I haven't already

at the risk of posting without the usual references (they are posted elsewhere(in this forum, and now below), and can be found also links that explain it quite clearly, but not here for now - later look if you really seek the truth)
the 144,000 are executed (beheaded) for their faith. NOT, very particularly NOT, saved from being martyred. they are martyrs. pure.


Who are the 144,000 in Revelation? - Yahoo
Since both chapters follow Revelation 4, the 144,000 are among the Tribulation Saints, ... they would have died as martyrs for their faith.https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=...

Since the manner of the resurrection is the dead in Christ first, and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. This occurs with every cohort reaching heaven including the 144,000 in their own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Yes, the 144,000 arrive in heaven out of tribulation just as the great multitude, but they arrive before the second three and one-half years when the taking of the mark of the beast under the rule of the man of sin, and thus aren't subject to the beheading of that time. Notice something else and that is that they are before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

.

I'm not talking about one man. I'm talking about millions vanishing at the same time.

Elisha and Elijah weren't spared from suffering. They may or may not have been spared from 'death', whatever Yhwh did with them, Yhwh did.

But where did you get the idea that more than 8 as in Noah's time, or 3 as in sodom and gomorrah, would even have a chance of 'vanishing' let alone "millions" ?

 

[JLB]

On the day of Pentecost it became imminent.

So you believe that Jesus will come before the antichrist, [man of sin, son of perdition, lawless one] appears?

How is that possible?

If everyone sees the real Christ before the great tribulation, who will be deceived by the false christ?

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


JLB

 

[DRS81]

So you believe that Jesus will come before the antichrist, [man of sin, son of perdition, lawless one] appears?

How is that possible?

If everyone sees the real Christ before the great tribulation, who will be deceived by the false christ?

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


JLB

Hey JLB. Let me know what your thoughts are on post 98 also. It adds to your post here.