Part of the quote you show from me was actually from JLB that somehow transferred to my post. Can you prove that Revelation 4:1 on does not apply to things of the seven years of tribulation to come, and that before that time some saints are shown with Jesus at its inception? Somehow I get the idea you're talking about a time after the millennium.
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Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.
- Thread starter DRS81
- Start date
You seem to be asking several questions here.
Could you ask one question that pertains to the OP, and my post that you quoted.
Or, maybe you could just show a scripture that proves Jesus will return before the great Tribulation to Resurrect the saints from the dead.
JLB
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Revelation 4:1-2 is (not) speaking about the rapture of the church when we are caught up in the air with Christ. God is given John a vision of the great tribulation, that is all.
The order of things
1. The sixth seal is open/sun and moon darkened stars fall from sky
2. rapture of the church
3. silence in heaven for 30 min
4. God's wrath is released/trumpets and bowls for the last 3.5 years of tribulation
5. When God's wrath is done at the end of the 7 years we begin the 1000 year reign with Christ
6. AFTER the 1000 year reign, nonbelievers and Satan are judged and we start living on the New Earth forever.
Brother,
Jesus Christ returns to earth to Gather His people at the Resurrection of the dead, whereby every eye will see Him.
This event happens BEFORE the Rdpture.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16
Clearly the Resurrection comes before the Rapture.
So here is the scripture for the Resurrection, when Jesus Comes to Gather His people, whereby every eye will see Him and mourn. -
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27
Jesus will come once to Gather His people.
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:28
You are correct, Rev 4:1-2 is not talking of the rapture, but something that has already occurred and John in spirit is being shown this from heaven. The tribulation at this point is yet to come.
You are correct, Rev 4:1-2 is not talking of the rapture, but something that has already occurred and John in spirit is being shown this from heaven. The tribulation at this point is yet to come.
Correct. Some may have you believe that we are in the seven year great tribulation (right now), but that's simply not biblical. What we are in is called (birth pains/pangs). The end times is described like a woman giving birth because the closer we get to the second coming (contractions), the worse society and other things will become, the more painful it will be for the world. Rev 12:2.
The Bible teaches us in Dan 9:27 that in the (beginning of trib) the Antichrist will sign a peace treaty with Israel. That's why you always hear of peace agreements on the news trying to be fulfilled. When a seven year peace treaty is signed, only then will you know the seven year tribulation has finally begun. But before this treaty is signed, I believe Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 wars have to come to pass first. Russia has been in the headlines for some time now. Also watch the (fall of Damascus/Isaiah 17), (the arab nations surrounding Israel closing in/Psalm 83) and (Russia and Iran/Ezekiel 38-39) come in to play. It's very interesting. It's really hard to say if the peace treaty will be signed in our lifetime. Time will tell. - DRS81
ezrider
Member
My response is not directed at you JLB, but rather the common belief that you and many hold to concerning the scripture you quoted.
You will never understand the scripture as you should as long as you hold fast to the idea of a singular Anti-Christ devil character you are waiting to see destroyed to fulfill some sort of prophesy according to your flesh.
But it takes courage, humility and Faith to recognize and accept that it is you who is the man of sin that the scripture speaks of. It is you who is a son of perdition, or rather a son that goes into perdition. Living after the flesh and your understanding thereof, forever trying to perfect your own flesh as an acceptable sacrifice before the Lord.
I am a man of sin, you are a man of sin, each of us is a man of sin after the nature of our flesh. If this was not so, then there would be no reason for you to need a savior in the first place, would there? But as the scripture says of the man of sin, the Lord shall consume him with the SPIRIT of his mouth. By Faith, our old nature is consumed in Christ. By Faith we have been baptized into the death of Christ. Knowing that our old man is crucified with him that the body of sin might be destroyed. (Romans 6:3-6)
God is a Spirit, and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. The Spirit of Christ has made his abode in the hearts of man, and he instructs us by his Spirit, as we are created in his image. So when one is destroyed by the Spirit of his voice, how shall I imagine what that might look like?
1 Corinthians 2:9-14
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Matthew 13:13-14
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.
Jesus said in many places, he who hath an ear to hear, hear what the spirit saith unto you.
There are things to come to pass that will forecast the coming tribulation: Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Some say there is no daily sacrifice, but there will be. Subsequent to this there will be the signing of the peace agreement probably with restoration of the daily sacrifice.
In tribulation now? Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed . .
Speak for yourself!
I am a son of God.
You are what you believe.
Be it unto you according to your faith.
As a man thinks in his heart so is he.
I am a new creation, all things have become new for me, in Christ.
Have a nice day!
JLB
You will never understand that Paul is referring to a single individual, until you read what he wrote and simply believe it as it is written.
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
This scripture is referring to a single individual.
The Church is not the man of sin.
Sin being revealed or not in an individual's life will not stop Jesus Christ from returning at the end of the age.
Sin being revealed or not in the Thessalonica Church in Paul's day has nothing to do with a future person who will be revealed in his own time, whom the Lord Jesus Christ will personally destroy by the brightness of His Coming.
Jesus doesn't destroy some man of sin within us by His Coming.
It takes a person's will to surrender to the Cross and be crucified, to be a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God.
Sin or the sin nature doesn't just somehow become destroyed by the brightness of Jesus coming "within" us.
We are transformed by the renewing of our mind, as we submit to God and submit our members as instruments of righteousness.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:11-14
You see, what your are teaching is the age old lie that Jesus will do it all for you and you don't have to do anything, He will just magically appear and you will be perfect and the all the sin within you will disappear.
Sorry, brother,
The whole new testament is a set of instructions unto righteousness that you yourself need to obey.
You will live with a human body for the rest of your life that is full of sin, and has a desire of it's own.
You yourself must learn to take up your cross, in order to follow Him.
You yourself must do the work of presenting yourself as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16
JLB
Hi Eugene. We have learned from Dan 9:27 that when the Antichrist takes away and puts an end to sacrifice and offering, this will be at the end of the first 3.5 years (specifically between the 5th and 6th seal). (And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”) He then takes his seat in the third temple and declares himself as God, but that doesn't last long because the Lord comes soon after.
Antichrist plans
1. Beginning of Tribulation - 1st seal open (deception)/Antichrist signs peace treaty Dan 9:27
2. Beginning to Middle of Tribulation - 2nd seal open (persecution) Rev 6:3-4 / 3rd seal open (famine) Rev 6:5-6 / 4th seal open (death) Rev 6:7-8 / 5th seal open (martyrdom) Rev 6:9-11
3. End of the First 3.5 Years - After the Antichrist has beheaded many christians, he then will take seat in the third temple and declare himself as God.
3. End of the First 3.5 Years - And when the sixth seal opens (sun and moon darkened) you will know that the rapture will soon come to pass, probably minutes after I would think.
4. End of the First 3.5 Years - Around this point, the brightness of His coming will kill the Antichrist.
5. The last 3.5 Years - And then begins God's wrath of trumpets and bowls on the land and the rest of the people still alive. Can you imagine still being alive during this time? Wow. Rev 8:11 (bitter water kills people) / Rev 9:4-6 (locusts torture people for five months) / Rev 9:18 (a third of mankind dies by fire, smoke and sulfur) / Rev 9:19 (the heads of the locusts inflict injury on people) / Rev 9:20-21 (after all that people still did not repent) / Rev 16:2 (ugly, festering sores breaks out on people) / Rev 16:4-6 (rivers turn to blood/people drinking blood) / Rev 16:8-9 (sun scorching people with fire) / Rev 16:12-14 (demonic deception of the kings of the world ) / Rev 16:21 (huge hailstones fall on people). This is why it's important to repent and accept Jesus Christ as savior, so we're no longer under his wrath but under is grace. Praise Him!
Ok, I'm gonna test you here. Where in the seven year tribulation does Rev 9:18 occur. - DRS81
I'll just address this portion for the time being, and the sacrifice and offering mentioned is the one he establishes at the beginning of the seven years. I made mention in an earlier post that this treaty the Antichrist makes may well be the reestablished daily sacrifice that was taken away thirty days earlier. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Many believe there must be a temple to offer the daily sacrifice and that is not so.
You have that backwards, the Antichrist establishes (the peace treaty).
But he doesn't establish the sacrifice and offering, (he destroys it!)
The end of sacrifice and offering occur at the end of the first 3.5 years not the beginning.
Dan 9:27 And in the midst of the week, meaning at the end of the first 3.5 years.
I'll catch up with you tomorrow. Good night, DRS81.
Let me ask you when you think the abomination that maketh desolate is set up? To me it is the middle of the week. We've got to reconcile some timelines or we're spinning our wheels, and it may be that we're just not understanding one another.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (2520 days) and in the midst of the week (1260 days) he shall cause the sacrifice (What sacrifice?) and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Okay: Start of seven years - The Antichrist confirms a covenant for seven years; does he establish the sacrifice at the beginning of the seven years that he causes to cease after only three and one-half years? It is all religious service at this time to be replaced by worship of him.
Daniel 12:11 Which sacrifice was ended one thousand and ninety days before the middle of the week. It was the daily sacrifice and may not have been reestablished.
This occurs during the second woe stretching from Rev 9:12 which is at least 150 days into the first three and one-half years of tribulation until Rev 11:14 with the ascension of the two witnesses three days after the middle of the week. I wasn’t exactly sure what you’re looking for.
The abomination of desolation is set up between the fifth and sixth seal. The fifth and sixth seal is around the middle of the week, middle of the seven years. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will cause the sacrifices of a rebuilt Jewish temple (to cease). A third temple will be built for the Jewish people to perform sacrifice and offering. The third temple will be built, but the Antichrist is going to stop the sacrifice and offering in the middle of the tribulation, set up some kind of statue to worship and declare himself God. The Arab nations have to agree to the re-building of this temple. Right now the Arabs are not looking for peace.
Again, the Antichrist doesn't establish the sacrifice and offerings, he (destroys it). You have to be clear with your words. He (establishes) the peace treaty and then (destroys) the sacrifices and offerings of the Jewish people. The sacrifice and offering come from the (Jewish people) specifically. The Antichrist destroys the sacrifice and offerings in the middle of the tribulation, not the beginning. Yes, sacrifice and offerings are religious ceremonies performed by Jewish people.
No, Rev 9:18 is part of the trumpets. Trumpets and bowls come at the last 3.5 years of trib (within the span of 3.5 years), not the first 3.5 years. God's wrath will be poured out for 3.5 years of the tribulation. After the day of the Lord comes and rapture occurs, then begins God's wrath. The day of the Lord, rapture and the start of God's Wrath all happen on the same day (right in the middle of tribulation). This is how quickly things will come to pass on that day. Trumpets and bowls and God's wrath comes after the Antichrist, the rapture and the day of the Lord, in the last 3.5 years. Blessings.
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Wasn't the temple sacrifice system ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD?
Reba, hi! Blessings.
I think you're referring to the first or second temple.
Dan 9:27 is speaking of a third temple that is to be built and taken over by the Antichrist in the seven year great tribulation.