Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Kathi]

So why do you believe in pre-trib rapture if the first resurrection (the rapture of the church) happens after trib.

Because that is what scripture tells me.

 

[Kathi]

Kathi - The main theme about the end times is deception. Jesus Christ said that MANY will be deceived. Even the Elect will be deceived - if that were possible.
The Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't deceive anyone.
Suppose tomorrow 5 million people (MY number) vanished. That would be the top news story on every news network in the world. Then someone is going to report that Christians believed that when people disappear, that an evil dictator is going to arrive. They called him the antichrist. Therefore, this person is now here. We need to be on the lookout for this man.
Who is deceived? - No one.

Instead, when the Tribulation begins, Pre-Tribbers are going to say that so and so is not the antichrist because I am still here. So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived. So and so is not the antichrist because how could a loving merciful God do that to us? Therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist.

Sadly, Pre-Tribbers have gotten the idea that they are "special". THEY are going to be spared from persecution and death when NO ONE ever has been - not the earliest Christians - not the Jews - no one.

I do not consider myself as special.And I think it is rude of you to say that because I believe in the pre-trib rapture.Please do not judge me for what I believe.I have spoken to some who do not believe in the pre-trib and they say they are afraid of an anytime taken up to heaven with Christ.We would then be at the Bema Seat judgment.They say that they are not ready.Give them a few years.
I will no longer come to End-Times because it is not for me.Although I will remain in CF.

 

[DRS81]

Because that is what scripture tells me.

But Rev 20:4-6 says otherwise. I'm not understanding what you're seeing.

 

[Eugene]

Post 59.

Hi. there is an easier way to show someone a post you want them to read and that is to click on the post number; in this case #59, and a window will come up with the URL address you can copy and paste in your post such as the following one.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...long-with-a-question.54087/page-3#post-938551

But I'm not confusing the temptation that shall come upon all the world (When does that occur?) with that great tribulation of Mat 24:21)
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You said in that post #59, "The Great Tribulation, which is simply a way that we refer to the period of 7 years before Christ's coming." With that in mind, and if I remember correctly you said Christ's coming will be the last day. Does that mean the thousand year reign of Christ precedes the tribulation?

 

[Eugene]

Sadly, Pre-Tribbers have gotten the idea that they are "special". THEY are going to be spared from persecution and death when NO ONE ever has been - not the earliest Christians - not the Jews - no one.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[DRS81]

Does that mean the thousand year reign of Christ precedes the tribulation?

Hi Eugene. Revelation 20 makes it clear that the seven year great trib precedes the 1000 years. Rev 6-18 speaks of the great trib, but the order of Rev 20 is The Thousand Years, The Judgment of Satan, and then the The Judgment of the Dead. After the 1000 years have ended, all that's left is The Judgment of Satan, and then the The Judgment of the Dead. Then Rev 21 speaks of A New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem and the Bride of the Lamb. God doesn't confuse, rather the devil is the prince of confusion. - DRS81

 

[Eugene]

Hi Eugene. Revelation 20 makes it clear that the seven year great trib precedes the 1000 years. Rev 6-18 speaks of the great trib, but the order of Rev 20 is The Thousand Years, The Judgment of Satan, and then the The Judgment of the Dead. After the 1000 years have ended, all that's left is The Judgment of Satan, and then the The Judgment of the Dead. Then Rev 21 speaks of A New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem and the Bride of the Lamb. God doesn't confuse, rather the devil is the prince of confusion. - DRS81

This presents another question.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In your opinion does this occur on the last day at the last trump since I believe you said that none are resurrected prior to that? Thanks

 

[reba]

Hey reba. But the plans of the antichrist are, in Rev 20:4. These plans happen in the great trib.

Does God say that?

 

[reba]

Kathi - The main theme about the end times is deception. Jesus Christ said that MANY will be deceived. Even the Elect will be deceived - if that were possible.
The Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't deceive anyone.
Suppose tomorrow 5 million people (MY number) vanished. That would be the top news story on every news network in the world. Then someone is going to report that Christians believed that when people disappear, that an evil dictator is going to arrive. They called him the antichrist. Therefore, this person is now here. We need to be on the lookout for this man.
Who is deceived? - No one.

Instead, when the Tribulation begins, Pre-Tribbers are going to say that so and so is not the antichrist because I am still here. So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived. So and so is not the antichrist because how could a loving merciful God do that to us? Therefore, so and so is NOT the antichrist.

Sadly, Pre-Tribbers have gotten the idea that they are "special". THEY are going to be spared from persecution and death when NO ONE ever has been - not the earliest Christians - not the Jews - no one.
.

Sadly, Pre-Tribbers have gotten the idea that they are "special". THEY are going to be spared from persecution and death when NO ONE ever has been - not the earliest Christians - not the Jews - no one.
Whoa Johns S... that is a bit harsh... The pre tribbers i know believe it is just His timing.. Not that is about them just His timing.. Our eschatology does not make any one of us smarter better more saved then the next guy...

A TOS that has been a great help to me 2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

I am not the same Christian i was 50 years ago... We dont all grow at the same pace...

ADMIN

 

[DRS81]

This presents another question.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In your opinion does this occur on the last day at the last trump since I believe you said that none are resurrected prior to that? Thanks

Yes absolutely. The people who are beheaded in the great trib are also those who will be in the rapture on the last day at the last trump. The people who will be beheaded will be born again christians. Remember what we said now..when we speak of the word (rapture) on the last day we are speaking about (us the church/born again christians only). Focus on the last day and that group of people is what you get. The past is the past, but the future will reveal the end.

Does God say that?

He does. (Rev 20:4) Beheading/worshiping the beast and his image/the mark on their foreheads and hands...all describe the plans of the Antichrist in the great tribulation, and God was speaking through John in Revelation. Unless you can prove these things happen before the great trib.

 

[reba]

I dont see the word antichrist there. Only here:

Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Kinda a pet peeve of mine we ( including self) often say the Scripture says this and it doesnt... It says beast. there in 20:4

 

[Eugene]

Yes absolutely. The people who are beheaded in the great trib are also those who will be in the rapture on the last day at the last trump. The people who will be beheaded will be born again christians. Remember what we said now..when we speak of the word (rapture) on the last day we are speaking about (us the church/born again christians only). Focus on the last day and that group of people is what you get. The past is the past, but the future will reveal the end.

I'm sorry brother, the further I go into this with you the farther from understanding what you're saying I become. Are you somehow saying the millennium is subsequent to the last day? And then those resurrected will then reign with Christ after the last day for a thousand years after Satan is judged? 2

 

[n2thelight]

Can any preterist tell me at what point in time did the rapture become imminent ?

To be clearer at what point in time after this verse

Acts 1:11

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

could Christ have returned?

 

[n2thelight]

Can any preterist tell me at what point in time did the rapture become imminent ?

To be clearer at what point in time after this verse

Acts 1:11

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

could Christ have returned?

I meant Rapturist

 

[DRS81]

I dont see the word antichrist there. Only here:

Kinda a pet peeve of mine we ( including self) often say the Scripture say this and it doesnt... It says beast. there in 20:4

Hi reba. The beast is symbolic in Rev 20:4, it's describing the spirit of the Antichrist in the great tribulation. The book of Revelation is engulfed with symbolism and visions. Salem Kirban stated in his book, 'Satan's Mark Exposed'...."One day in the Tribulation Period you will need proper identification to withdraw or deposit money in your bank. The identification will be an invisible mark either on the back of your hand or on you forehead!" (Salem Kirban, Satan's Mark Exposed, p.46)

Rev 13 15The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Revelation 15:2, describes those during the tribulation who got victory over 'the number of his name'. (And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. Rev 15:2)

Rev 15:2 stand on the sea of glass; http://biblehub.com/revelation/15-2.htm / Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
which, if applied to the blood of Christ, shows that these confessors were purified by it, and were more than conquerors through it; that they were come out of great tribulation, and had washed their garments, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb; and were just come up from the washing, and stood upon, or rather by, or "near the sea", as the Arabic version renders it, in allusion to the priests at the molten sea, in the temple: but if the world is meant by the sea, their standing upon it designs their victory and triumph over it by faith, their having it under their feet, and their contempt of it; but rather, since the Gospel is intended, it may denote their solid standing upon the doctrines of it, the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and their steadfast continuance in them, and faithful abiding by them, whereby they got the victory over antichrist:

I'm sorry brother, the further I go into this with you the farther from understanding what you're saying I become. Are you somehow saying the millennium is subsequent to the last day? And then those resurrected will then reign with Christ after the last day for a thousand years after Satan is judged?

Hi Eugene. This is the order as I see it. 1-10 describes the second coming of Jesus Christ played out in multiple events.

(1) The Seven Year Great Tribulation - 7 Seals/Trumpets/Bowls - (1) through (5)
(2) The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8).

The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17).

(2) I also believe the martyrs in Rev 20:4 are the same as the martyrs in the fifth seal, all dying in the great tribulation.
(3) Now comes the rapture. I personally believe the rapture/the first resurrection in Rev 20:5 will occur around the sixth seal. (Rev 6:12-13 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.)
(3) Matt 24:29 confirms this also: great earthquake/the sun and moon darkened/stars falling from earth. (Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) But also notice in Matt 24:29 it says, "Immediately after tribulation". I believe the rapture of the church is right around here. Luke 21:25-28.
(4) Now we switch from the great tribulation to God's wrath. God's wrath is still part of the seven year great tribulation, it just goes deeper into judgment is all. He cleanses the earth of sin, (but not completely). When Satan is thrown into the lake of fire is when the earth will finally be cleansed and the New Earth and New Heaven will come down, where we will dwell forever with Christ. Keep in mind though, that there will still be people alive during his wrath! During the sixth trumpet in Rev 9:15, a third of mankind will die. The sixth bowl will also set the stage for the Antichrist and Armageddon.
(5) Now we go to Rev 19:20 when the beast and the false prophet are captured. Keep in mind that the beast and the false prophet are not Satan himself. Rev 19:20 says the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the 1000 years have ended. So Jesus defeats the beast and the false prophet in Rev 19:20. The judgment of Satan is coming next.
(6) After Jesus defeats the beast and the false prophet, he then bounds up Satan for a 1000 years. Rev 20:2. After Satan is locked down in the Abyss, Jesus will then begin the 1000 year reign with Christ!! Praise Him! And we will be a part of that reign, we will be priests of God!! How glorious. Rev 20:6.
(7) After the 1000 year reign has ended, Satan will be free again to deceive the nations. Rev 20:7. But have no fear, God then finally defeats Satan himself in Rev 20:9. And now finally, God finally throws Satan himself into the lake of fire with his buddies, the beast and the false prophet. Rev 20:10.
(8) And now comes the Great White Throne Judgment, the Judgment of the Dead, specifically for nonbelievers. Mainly because, all believers already came to life in the 1000 year reign receiving their immortal bodies and were already judged at the Bema Seat of Christ. Technically believers are not judged, rather they receive rewards. Believers were already judged when they accepted Jesus as Savior here on this old earth before they died. (when they became born again christians)
(9) Now comes the New Heaven and New Earth where we spend eternity with Jesus Christ. Rev 21.
(10) Eden is now restored, and we will see God face to face and God's name will be on our foreheads. And we will reign forever and ever with Him. Rev 22:3-5.

- Blessings, DRS81.

 

[reba]

Kirban's book is not scripture... I see a lot of speculation in your posts...
Around here, within some boundaries, different views are fine..
I dont agree with your thoughts but sure appreciated the clear way you laid them out ....

 

[reba]

I meant Rapturist

 

[DRS81]

Kirban's book is not scripture... I see a lot of speculation in your posts...
Around here, within some boundaries, different views are fine..
I dont agree with your thoughts but sure appreciated the clear way you laid them out ....

Understood. I need your thoughts on something however. I find it interesting that when the Bible says, "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."...also has similar events happening around the sixth seal in Rev 6:12-13. Raise your heads means rapture time, and keep in mind that Luke 21:25-28 is speaking of the great tribulation (people fainting with fear and distress of nations). Take a look at the similarity here..

Rev 6:12-13 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)

Luke 21:25-28. 25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

 

[Eugene]

DRS81 - When Satan is thrown into the lake of fire is when the earth will finally be cleansed and the New Earth and New Heaven will come down, where we will dwell forever with Christ.
Eugene – This is a new day, not a last day.

DRS81 - Keep in mind though, that there will still be people alive during his wrath! During the sixth trumpet in Rev 9:15, a third of mankind will die. The sixth bowl will also set the stage for the Antichrist and Armageddon.
Eugene – According to you this all comes down seven years prior to the last day.

DRS81 - After Satan is locked down in the Abyss, Jesus will then begin the 1000 year reign with Christ!! Praise Him! And we will be a part of that reign, we will be priests of God!! How glorious. Rev 20:6.
Eugene – How can the church be a part of something that is past the last day, and extends into eternity? You wrote that Jesus will reign with Christ, but I think that was just an error; should it be that we’ll reign with Christ for 1000 years? But then we run into that last day again. May I ask what the last day means to you?

Something I’m detecting in your outline sounds a might familiar or similar to Dispensations with their last days of certain ages; e.g., the Church age, the Kingdom age, etc. Thanks.

 

[John S]

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

I'm not talking about one man. I'm talking about millions vanishing at the same time.