Psychology - A Warning

[PeterJens]

The word

We were studying Jesus the word in church.
It struck me as odd, but how easily I devalue words. He only said that, wait to what they do.
Then I began to think that everything in my life is described through words.
Our communication here is just words, written out. Yet within this is everything.

Words are summary concepts of everything. We speak them, yet do not know where they come from or how we generate them. When a word cannot be remembered, like I was searching for diabetes today, it makes communication more difficult. Our whole faith is bounded by words, the bible.

I was sharing with someone the beauty of the Nicene creed. They called me a brainwashed fake.
What they were actually saying was the words meant nothing to them, no emotional weight or expression of the gospel. They had attached hypocrisy and legalism to the words, not as a beautiful summary of eternal truths.

It did not matter how many times I repeated my experience because to them the same words meant something totally different. But the real difference was emotional meaning and context.

Now what I like about psychology is the acknowledgement of this emotional aspect to life defines our interactions and experiences. And it is this I take, not their interpretations which I totally disagree with in term of Freud. I love the idea past positive emotional experiences can be used in CBT to change current depressive and negative experiences. In Christ we are commanded to praise, to be thankful, to see blessing and to not focus on bad, but on that which is good and of good repute.

Waiting on the Lord. "Be still and know that I am God". This is for me one the bedrock passages of knowing our salvation. We need but do that which is required, and rest in Him. In a world of pressure and status and rushing to be the most important, Christ stands by us and says, "I know you". Amen. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

I was sharing with someone the beauty of the Nicene creed. They called me a brainwashed fake.
What they were actually saying was the words meant nothing to them, no emotional weight or expression of the gospel. They had attached hypocrisy and legalism to the words, not as a beautiful summary of eternal truths.

I think that might be because it is a repetitive prayer... I am not saying anything against this... but that is what I thought of when I read this.

 

[Adoration]

Now what I like about psychology is the acknowledgement of this emotional aspect to life defines our interactions and experiences. And it is this I take, not their interpretations which I totally disagree with in term of Freud. I love the idea past positive emotional experiences can be used in CBT to change current depressive and negative experiences. In Christ we are commanded to praise, to be thankful, to see blessing and to not focus on bad, but on that which is good and of good repute.

You have such a unique view of psychology.... I see it as cold and without emotion.. the field of it I mean... You have these highly paid specialists... ( who usually are not in the least bit special ) nor do they bring this emotional loveliness of which you speak... You must have had a totally different experience in this subject...

Ask most people who have partaken in the services of psychiatry and psychology... and I am almost certain you will have a very NEGATIVE response.

 

[PeterJens]

Adam wasn't naked when he hid from God. And that does seem like a trick answer. However by reading the Genesis account from eating the fruit to hiding from God - what changed is profound - and that profound character of why Adam said that he was naked when he had already covered himself with an apron of leaves and why God asked who had told him that he was naked - point to the very beginning of an effect that was historically cited as natural philosophy which incorporated many of the historical threads that gave rise to modern psychology. Psychology today as behavioural psychology is a profound physicality just as Galatians 5:20-21 are physicalities of the flesh. That physicality is predicated on that event in Eden in rather the same way Marx Communism became so profound because his conflict theory of labour was predicated on a profound fact that can also be found in Genesis regarding labour. Both strands of meaning have come out of Jewish thinking - Marx I have named but the other I won't yet unless it is possible to explain why I posted this thread in a way that removes from personal experience and begins to address both ration and provable fact in psychology and biblically. The list of Jewish psychologists has been posted so it won't be difficult to pin this down.

The key precept is FEAR because that is what Adam said he felt when he heard God calling out. And his following explanation had him express a reality and yet observationally a lie. He wasn't naked = he was afraid - he said he was naked and God asked who had told him that he was naked - then asked if he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We also have to see that God told Adam in the day he ate the fruit he would die. So here he was alive in his flesh and alive in himself. Yet according to God he had died else God is found a lair.

NB Actually that list is not adequate - Ill post the links if they become necessary.

"Adam wasn't naked when he hid from God."

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
Gen 3:10

Whatever position of interpretation we take on scripture, we must be exact in terms of what it actually says.
Unfortunately I have met too many believers who miss-quote and miss-apply scripture to fit their world model of reality, because the model works for them, so scripture must be changed.

I openly confess I have done the same in the past, because I want to know how things are, and unlock that which seems so fragile and complicated.

Adam and Eve are not obvious, and Gods intention before the fall was not clear. One could easily argue this is an allegory to describe our current state, rather than specifically why and how we got here. We do not for instance have talking snakes. But part of the story is snakes are cursed to always walk on the ground without legs. So snakes originally had legs.

Lots of heresies find their roots in the interpretation of defining man back in the garden of eden.
Primarily the story is one of relationship and trust and breaking this trust.

For me also, man appears to be a loving creature in their heart when born, which is the image of God.
A lot of believers resisted this idea because they felt man was totally lost and evil in their heart, and felt any sense of being loving denied the debt of lostness and sin we owe to God. But equally because man in loving, and finds failure in parents and world, he turns to sin to take revenge for the hurt and pain experienced in growing up.
So much sinful behaviour is linked to the disconnect between the heart and behaviour, Jesus breaks through to let love come alive and healing flow.

What has amazed me is how psychology has uncovered some of these realities without knowing how Jesus makes us whole. The more I learn the more I see only the cross resolves our failure and hurts and gives real promise to make our paths real and straight. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

Unfortunately I have met too many believers who miss-quote and miss-apply scripture to fit their world model of reality, because the model works for them, so scripture must be changed.

Welcome to the world of Christianity... HAHA... Sorry... I couldn't resist...

 

[PeterJens]

You have such a unique view of psychology.... I see it as cold and without emotion.. the field of it I mean... You have these highly paid specialists... ( who usually are not in the least bit special ) nor do they bring this emotional loveliness of which you speak... You must have had a totally different experience in this subject...

Ask most people who have partaken in the services of psychiatry and psychology... and I am almost certain you will have a very NEGATIVE response.

In our church we have a Christian counselling service.
The experience of this is to allow people to explore their emotional experiences and help them to see a way through. What is clear, is this is very difficult, because self knowledge of what one is feeling is just a first step.

The therapists of my daughter are very caring and supportive, and vary in their use of approaches.
My point is not this is an end in itself, rather as believers we need to acknowledge our faith is built on our relationship with Christ which is deeply emotional. And praise the Lord, this is a good thing. I love Him more than my wife, kids, family and friends. I am also commanded to be like this, which is ironic, because in one sense we grow to this place rather than simply choose it. But we choose to sow and follow, which is key to everything.

One criticism of unbelievers is you faith as a crutch. A hard hearted person speaks like this because they believe they bravely stand against the tumult of life and survive. The reality is they are dead and just coping, while those is Christ are alive and growing with loving and caring relationships budding all around. God bless you

 

[rhomphaeam]

"Adam wasn't naked when he hid from God."

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
Gen 3:10

Whatever position of interpretation we take on scripture, we must be exact in terms of what it actually says.
Unfortunately I have met too many believers who miss-quote and miss-apply scripture to fit their world model of reality, because the model works for them, so scripture must be changed.

I was exact @ #54

arom (עָרוֹם, 6174), “naked.” This word occurs 16 times. The first occurrence is in Gen. 2:25: “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

רֹם [ʿeyrom, ʿerom /ay·rome/] adj n m. From 6191; TWOT 1588b; GK 6567; 10 occurrences; AV translates as “naked” nine times, and “nakedness” once. 1 naked. 2 nakedness.

Expresses the Lemma

The Greek reference 6567 is from Goodrick-Kohlenberger and in the Septuagint the manuscript says:

καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα.

gumnos (γυμνός) Lexical Bare

1. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:25
2. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." Genesis 3:7
3. He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10

1. וַיִּֽהְי֤וּ שְׁנֵיהֶם֙ עֲרוּמִּ֔ים הָֽאָדָ֖ם וְאִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְלֹ֖א יִתְבֹּשָֽׁשׁוּ׃ Genesis 2:25
2. וַתִּפָּקַ֙חְנָה֙ עֵינֵ֣י שְׁנֵיהֶ֔ם וַיֵּ֣דְע֔וּ כִּ֥י עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם הֵ֑ם וַֽיִּתְפְּרוּ֙ עֲלֵ֣ה תְאֵנָ֔ה וַיַּעֲשׂ֥וּ לָהֶ֖ם חֲגֹרֹֽת׃Genesis 3:7
3. וַיֹּ֕אמֶר אֶת־קֹלְךָ֥ שָׁמַ֖עְתִּי בַּגָּ֑ן וָאִירָ֛א כִּֽי־עֵירֹ֥ם אָנֹ֖כִי וָאֵחָבֵֽא׃ Genesis 3:10

1. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ δύο γυμνοί, ὅ τε Ἀδὰμ καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ᾐσχύνοντο Genesis 2:25 (Manuscript Genesis 3:1)
2. καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα. Genesis 3:7
3. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Τὴν φωνήν σου ἤκουσα περιπατοῦντος ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ, καὶ ἐφοβήθην, ὅτι γυμνός εἰμι, καὶ ἐκρύβην Genesis 3:10

1. Genesis 2:25 naked עֲרוּמִּ֔ים
2. Genesis 3:7 naked עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם
3. Genesis 3:10 naked עֵירֹ֥ם

1. Genesis 2:25 naked γυμνοί
2. Genesis 3:7 naked γυμνοὶ
3. Genesis 3:10 naked γυμνός

To this:

מַעֲרֹם maʿărôm, mah-ar-ome´; from 6191, in the sense of stripping; bare:—naked.

עָרַם ʿâram, aw-ram´; a prim. root; prop. to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived. sense (through the idea perhaps. of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense):—× very, beware, take crafty [counsel], be prudent, deal subtilely.

To this:

“Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood." Ezekiel 18:2

Here are the two expressions idiomatically implicit in the references in Genesis 2:25, Genesis 3:7 and Genesis 3:10

Naked and bare don't mean the same thing in Genesis. Naked means to have no clothes on - bare means to have your mind stripped naked. It is that implicit meaning that gives rise to psychology as a VALID subject.

The fear that Adam felt when he was clothed in an apron of leaves is the stripped bare meaning - and not the nakedmeaning of having no clothes. That distinction speaks to the body in relationship to the mind. It is the most basic psychological precept that gives rise to behavioural psychological theories.

Physiologically it speaks of the autonomic nervous system with the sympathetic and para sympathetic junctions or branches. Psychophysiologically it speaks of the relationship between body and mind and predicated to emotional and behavioural responses. In psychology that precept is built upon by a theory called Operant Conditioning - the physiological predicate of neurophysiology is called Classical Conditioning.

What I am trying to do here is not claim that psychology is false in that basic sense of its meaning - I am trying to show that the churches have embraced psychological theories of behaviour in order to address the almost unfathomable level of anxiety and a lack of self worth that is expressed so well as a need to minister - it has robbed the church of the effectual purpose of the very Gospel.

It may seem like a lot of effort but the effect is also unspeakable because it has rendered many believers like children and so they may never mature and become as Paul adjured, more than mere men.

You Peter, are on the other hand being discursive.

 

[rhomphaeam]

In our church we have a Christian counselling service.

In our church we throw councillors and psychologists from the second floor window every third Sunday of the month. It's the most popular service. Only kidding Peter.

 

[PeterJens]

Welcome to the world of Christianity... HAHA... Sorry... I couldn't resist...

There is a phrase called cognitive disonance.

The idea is a concept is so difficult for someone to cope with, they read the words, and their brains jump over it, so they never actually read it.

I was interacting with a believer. He stated something that was clearly wrong. I pointed this out the next post after his post. He could not admit it, and carried on as if he had said nothing wrong. It was weird. What made sense to me was cognitive disonance. For him to see his failure, was to admit his view failed which was so catastrophic emotionally to him, he would rather not see it than face it.

This demonstrated to me everything we do is bounded by our feelings towards it. Every word, every action, every waking moment. Occasionally when something fundamental is threatened and I am upset, I see this and how fragile as humans we truly are.

It is why I love Jesus and His security. Yes the world is tempting, but Jesus is everything and in His ways eternity springs and life in every relationship. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

In our church we have a Christian counselling service.
The experience of this is to allow people to explore their emotional experiences and help them to see a way through. What is clear, is this is very difficult, because self knowledge of what one is feeling is just a first step.

The therapists of my daughter are very caring and supportive, and vary in their use of approaches.
My point is not this is an end in itself, rather as believers we need to acknowledge our faith is built on our relationship with Christ which is deeply emotional. And praise the Lord, this is a good thing. I love Him more than my wife, kids, family and friends. I am also commanded to be like this, which is ironic, because in one sense we grow to this place rather than simply choose it. But we choose to sow and follow, which is key to everything.

One criticism of unbelievers is you faith as a crutch. A hard hearted person speaks like this because they believe they bravely stand against the tumult of life and survive. The reality is they are dead and just coping, while those is Christ are alive and growing with loving and caring relationships budding all around. God bless you

I find your contributions to be very enlightening... I enjoy what you have to say... and I am not trying to come against you.

What you are describing is totally different... Christian counselling.... YEP... that is totally different... and yes... they may use Cognitive Behavioural Therapy... or other therapies taken from psychology textbooks... but.... BUT... this is not the norm of what we find in the current or even past world of psychology... SO... what you are describing is compassionate Christians being educated in the field of psychology... and applying Christianity to the model of wellness.... PERFECT!!!

I think the criticism of unbelievers is rather our hypocrisy... rather than using faith as a crutch... If the world saw a JOYFUL and LOVING people.. .they would be jealous... INSTEAD what they get lambasted with is judgement and correction. That is my little two cents worth.

 

[Adoration]

In our church we throw councillors and psychologists from the second floor window every third Sunday of the month. It's the most popular service. Only kidding Peter.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... and still HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... oh my goodness... you made me spit my coffee... Who knew you were funny?????? HAHAHA

Can you tell??? I really desire to be part of this conversation??? LOL

 

[PeterJens]

I was exact @ #54

arom (עָרוֹם, 6174), “naked.” This word occurs 16 times. The first occurrence is in Gen. 2:25: “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

רֹם [ʿeyrom, ʿerom /ay·rome/] adj n m. From 6191; TWOT 1588b; GK 6567; 10 occurrences; AV translates as “naked” nine times, and “nakedness” once. 1 naked. 2 nakedness.

Expresses the Lemma

The Greek reference 6567 is from Goodrick-Kohlenberger and in the Septuagint the manuscript says:

καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα.

gumnos (γυμνός) Lexical Bare

1. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:25
2. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." Genesis 3:7
3. He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10

1. וַיִּֽהְי֤וּ שְׁנֵיהֶם֙ עֲרוּמִּ֔ים הָֽאָדָ֖ם וְאִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְלֹ֖א יִתְבֹּשָֽׁשׁוּ׃ Genesis 2:25
2. וַתִּפָּקַ֙חְנָה֙ עֵינֵ֣י שְׁנֵיהֶ֔ם וַיֵּ֣דְע֔וּ כִּ֥י עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם הֵ֑ם וַֽיִּתְפְּרוּ֙ עֲלֵ֣ה תְאֵנָ֔ה וַיַּעֲשׂ֥וּ לָהֶ֖ם חֲגֹרֹֽת׃Genesis 3:7
3. וַיֹּ֕אמֶר אֶת־קֹלְךָ֥ שָׁמַ֖עְתִּי בַּגָּ֑ן וָאִירָ֛א כִּֽי־עֵירֹ֥ם אָנֹ֖כִי וָאֵחָבֵֽא׃ Genesis 3:10

1. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ δύο γυμνοί, ὅ τε Ἀδὰμ καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ᾐσχύνοντο Genesis 2:25 (Manuscript Genesis 3:1)
2. καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα. Genesis 3:7
3. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Τὴν φωνήν σου ἤκουσα περιπατοῦντος ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ, καὶ ἐφοβήθην, ὅτι γυμνός εἰμι, καὶ ἐκρύβην Genesis 3:10

1. Genesis 2:25 naked עֲרוּמִּ֔ים
2. Genesis 3:7 naked עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם
3. Genesis 3:10 naked עֵירֹ֥ם

1. Genesis 2:25 naked γυμνοί
2. Genesis 3:7 naked γυμνοὶ
3. Genesis 3:10 naked γυμνός

To this:

מַעֲרֹם maʿărôm, mah-ar-ome´; from 6191, in the sense of stripping; bare:—naked.

עָרַם ʿâram, aw-ram´; a prim. root; prop. to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived. sense (through the idea perhaps. of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense):—× very, beware, take crafty [counsel], be prudent, deal subtilely.

To this:

“Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood." Ezekiel 18:2

Here are the two expressions idiomatically implicit in the references in Genesis 2:25, Genesis 3:7 and Genesis 3:10

Naked and bare don't mean the same thing in Genesis. Naked means to have no clothes on - bare means to have your mind stripped naked. It is that implicit meaning that gives rise to psychology as a VALID subject.

The fear that Adam felt when he was clothed in an apron of leaves is the stripped bare meaning - and not the nakedmeaning of having no clothes. That distinction speaks to the body in relationship to the mind. It is the most basic psychological precept that gives rise to behavioural psychological theories.

Physiologically it speaks of the autonomic nervous system with the sympathetic and para sympathetic junctions or branches. Psychophysiologically it speaks of the relationship between body and mind and predicated to emotional and behavioural responses. In psychology that precept is built upon by a theory called Operant Conditioning - the physiological predicate of neurophysiology is called Classical Conditioning.

What I am trying to do here is not claim that psychology is false in that basic sense of its meaning - I am trying to show that the churches have embraced psychological theories of behaviour in order to address the almost unfathomable level of anxiety and a lack of self worth that is expressed so well as a need to minister - it has robbed the church of the effectual purpose of the very Gospel.

It may seem like a lot of effort but the effect is also unspeakable because it has rendered many believers like children and so they may never mature and become as Paul adjured, more than mere men.

You Peter, are on the other hand being discursive.

Long way round.
Was Adam naked, ie without clothes?

You wrote he was not naked.
The above does not seem to support your proposition that he was not naked.
So I am little confused as to what you are saying?

Naked emotionally, vulnerable, anxious, without security or safety.

I agree that a lot of preachers have simply taken anxiety as something they wish to address without dealing with the fundamental issues of sin and the heart, the need for repentance and change, the power of love in the soul and the transformation of the cross in someones life. But to be honest, how many truly know Jesus?
How many know love overcoming loneliness and tragedy and often fall victim to it themselves.
My church had such a pastor who had to retire early because life became to overwhelming.

You cannot fake faith that conquers all and bring love where there is hate, turns sinful behaviour into loving care for others. The particular pastor in question decided because I showed love and care for a struggling brother, I was a bad influence, because they could not handle the doctrinal implications of what he was sharing. But he was sharing the temple meant so much to us we must conform to the jewish traditions more closely.

The real problem was this particular man in emotional terms challenged friendship and trust issues the pastor could not cope with, and my support of this brother, meant I equally was a threat.

My approach is love people where they are, and get to know them, knowing Jesus will show the way through. Any challenge to love and care more, is something from the Lord. Once you unpack love and grace, you find Paul and freedom sitting there, though people start in an odd place, things move.

I live in a church of many elderly folk with serious cancer issues and dementia. If one holds all will be healed is we pray, you will lose your faith. But if you hold showing love and support, just being there and comforting and sharing the wonder of God grace each day, is our daily ministry, bring freedom. Some seem to think death is evil, to be run away from, rather than the door to meet Jesus. But if life is health and wealth, little wonder death is evil, even if it is dressed up in Christian clothing. To me this is where emotions and love of Christ hit the road. God will heal, where His will works that way, and for others, He will bring them home.

God bless you

 

[Adoration]

The idea is a concept is so difficult for someone to cope with, they read the words, and their brains jump over it, so they never actually read it.

Perhaps the problem is trust?? For example... how many people are on the bandwagon of "teaching" about covid and the vaccines?? There are so many Christians who have taken it upon themselves to try and ENLIGHTEN everyone about what they think is happening. They spend hours a day...researching all kinds of information on the internet and if you don't see things their way... you are WRONG... and the ENEMY.

Christians are notorious for vomiting their beliefs and ideas on one another in such a manner that it becomes RIGHT and WRONG. Again... just my little opinion... I don't believe or listen to just anyone... I have to see the fruit of humility in someone's words... if there is no humility.... I say NO thanks.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Long way round.
Was Adam naked, ie without clothes?

You wrote he was not naked.
The above does not seem to support your proposition that he was not naked.
So I am little confused as to what you are saying?

Its there Peter and I will leave you to read it as you said inferentially that some believers are not exacting. I also cited some meanings from CBT in another post and you haven't responded to them. Stop playing with your sense of the supposed lack of exactness of words when expressed as a cognitive dissonance where words are simply not read and start applying that exactness you spoke about by reading the words I wrote properly. Adam was not naked as in a meaning of being unclothed. This is not a Taylor Shop discourse where we think of suits and fine linen it is a biblical meaning that is self proclaiming and doesn't need to be obfuscated to another meaning. Adam was not naked when he hid from God. Why did he say that he was? That is the predicative charge of a man who was an atheist and in recent years is earning a profound reputation in psychology because of his biological experiments over 100 years ago. I studied him nearly forty years ago at University. CBT is what precisely Peter - and where did it come from as a modality of therapy?

 

[eddif]

Jesus on the cross is the best medicine

Jesus on the cross and through His lashes took care of our Healing and Salvation.
1 Peter 2:24

The first man Adam became a living soul. The second Adam became a quickening spirit. The heart is quickened daily by his presence in our heart.

Heart and mind have the Lsw placed inside. IMHO the mind is not the heart, and the heart is not the mind.

First heart - stony heart ( broken up by repentance).
Second heart - heart of flesh directed by crucified Jesus becoming a quickening spirit, and allowed in to sup with us.

Spirit of mind. - Ephesians 4:23 kjv
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

This scripture is sort of hidden from me. There is no temple in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:22 kjv
22. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Since the New Jerusalem is spiritual IMHO there is no human body symbolism to support a visual.

This is taken by faith and not sight,

Jesus on earth was seen and touched. By the time we deal with the mind we are really seeing through a glass more darkly. Human body symbolism does have limits.

I do have thoughts about the New Jerusalem, but they are not widely accepted. eddif the redneck realizes this and is trying to find a better way of presenting the concept ( without being seen as hallucinating or being on drugs). People I come in contact with sometimes think John the Revelatory was taking drugs. I think he was in the Spirut of God and we have a welding helmet on and see very little.

Missippi redneck
eddif

 

[Adoration]

Papa bear has spoken... I'm out!!!! LOL

 

[Adoration]

Heart and mind have the Lsw placed inside. IMHO the mind is not the heart, and the heart is not the mind.

We have to tame the mind and soften the heart.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I think he was in the Spirut of God and we have a welding helmet on and see very little.

Missippi redneck
eddif

Thats true - and if we take it off we get arc eye just as John fell down in a faint when he saw the glorified Christ - so better to put on the helmet of salvation and begin to see with new eyes. The gospel itself prepares us to see - just as claiming to see when we are blind - sin remains. It is in truth not symbolism at all - it is spiritual reality and we need to begin to see by faith what we have been given in our inner parts.

 

[eddif]

We have to tame the mind and soften the heart.

Got to love this.
James 3:8 kjv
8. But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Luke 6:45
45. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the
abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:34 kjv. (Contested?)
34. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

IMHO
God changes our heart and not us.. if we confess our sins he is faithful an just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness.

From memory. (All correct?)

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Adoration]

Got to love this.
James 3:8 kjv
8. But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Luke 6:45
45. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

YEP....