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Psychology - A Warning

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eddif

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The hidden man of the heart is a symbol. Just like God signed his creation. Man just (IMHO) has more symbols because he was made in the image of God. Lots of physical symbols that have to be raised to a higher level of understanding. A seed is raised to the Word of God. Our heart supplies the body with: oxygen, nourishment, immune system products, etc.

The kidneys filter out the bad items. The snake head above the loop of Henley is looked on to help rid the body of poison, so we can live. The brazen serpent in the wilderness is a first symbol of Jesus on a tree.

eddif
 

eddif

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Pretty long list of Jewish American psychologists:


eddif
 

rhomphaeam

 
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As a matter of truth the problem with psychology is far simpler than we imagine. Galatians 5:20-21

Begin with the first fruit of the flesh and move along the list. What can you see? How is idolatry a fruit of the flesh? How is sorcery a fruit of the flesh? How are the proceeding (other) fruits all characteristically found in admonitions in the New Testament to either flee from or else refuse any man who walks in them?

εἰδωλολατρία
φαρμακεία
ἔχθραι
ἔρις
θυμοί
ἐριθεῖαι
διχοστασίαι


idolatry,sorcery,enmities,strife,jealousies,wraths,factions,
εἰδωλολατρίαφαρμακείαἔχθραιἔριςζῆλοςθυμοίἐριθεῖαι
divisionspartiesenvyingsdrunkennessrevellings
διχοστασίαιαἱρέσειςφθόνοιμέθαικῶμοι


The problem is far more grave than we would be able to fathom unless we were born again.

So I have asked

Was Adam naked when he hid from God?

Will no one answer that simple question?
 
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rhomphaeam

 
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Maybe everyone thinks this is a TRICK question.... YES Adam was naked when he hid from God.
But then again... he had always been naked before the fall... so what changed??

Adam wasn't naked when he hid from God. And that does seem like a trick answer. However by reading the Genesis account from eating the fruit to hiding from God - what changed is profound - and that profound character of why Adam said that he was naked when he had already covered himself with an apron of leaves and why God asked who had told him that he was naked - point to the very beginning of an effect that was historically cited as natural philosophy which incorporated many of the historical threads that gave rise to modern psychology. Psychology today as behavioural psychology is a profound physicality just as Galatians 5:20-21 are physicalities of the flesh. That physicality is predicated on that event in Eden in rather the same way Marx Communism became so profound because his conflict theory of labour was predicated on a profound fact that can also be found in Genesis regarding labour. Both strands of meaning have come out of Jewish thinking - Marx I have named but the other I won't yet unless it is possible to explain why I posted this thread in a way that removes from personal experience and begins to address both ration and provable fact in psychology and biblically. The list of Jewish psychologists has been posted so it won't be difficult to pin this down.

The key precept is FEAR because that is what Adam said he felt when he heard God calling out. And his following explanation had him express a reality and yet observationally a lie. He wasn't naked = he was afraid - he said he was naked and God asked who had told him that he was naked - then asked if he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We also have to see that God told Adam in the day he ate the fruit he would die. So here he was alive in his flesh and alive in himself. Yet according to God he had died else God is found a lair.

NB Actually that list is not adequate - Ill post the links if they become necessary.
 
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Adoration

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Adam wasn't naked when he hid from God. And that does seem like a trick answer. However by reading the Genesis account from eating the fruit to hiding from God - what changed is profound - and that profound character of why Adam said that he was naked when he had already covered himself with an apron of leaves and why God asked who had told him that he was naked - point to the very beginning of an effect that was historically cited as natural philosophy which incorporated many of the historical threads that gave rise to modern psychology. Psychology today as behavioural psychology is a profound physicality just as Galatians 5:20-21 are physicalities of the flesh. That physicality is predicated on that event in Eden in rather the same way Marx Communism became so profound because his conflict theory of labour was predicated on a profound fact that can also be found in Genesis regarding labour. Both strands of meaning have come out of Jewish thinking - Marx I have named but the other I won't yet unless it is possible to explain why I posted this thread in a way that removes from personal experience and begins to address both ration and provable fact in psychology and biblically. The list of Jewish psychologists has been posted so it won't be difficult to pin this down.

The key precept is FEAR because that is what Adam said he felt when he heard God calling out. And his following explanation had him express a reality and yet observationally a lie. He wasn't naked = he was afraid - he said he was naked and God asked who had told him that he was naked - then asked if he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We also have to see that God told Adam in the day he ate the fruit he would die. So here he was alive in his flesh and alive in himself. Yet according to God he had died else God is found a lair.
This made me smile... because I think you have been waiting for DAYS to say this.... HAHA....
FEAR is indeed what entered into the mind of Adam... and I am not going to argue whether or not he was naked... as I am not gifted in unravelling the mysteries of scripture.

For sure what changed is that before the fall... Adam and Eve did not have to contemplate evil... because evil did not exist... there was no need to have knowledge of it. I believe heaven is going to be like it was before the fall... except it will be permanent.

You write so very DEEP... .deeper than I can understand... so I will let someone else indulge you... this is way over my head.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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This made me smile... because I think you have been waiting for DAYS to say this.... HAHA....
FEAR is indeed what entered into the mind of Adam... and I am not going to argue whether or not he was naked... as I am not gifted in unravelling the mysteries of scripture.

For sure what changed is that before the fall... Adam and Eve did not have to contemplate evil... because evil did not exist... there was no need to have knowledge of it. I believe heaven is going to be like it was before the fall... except it will be permanent.

You write so very DEEP... .deeper than I can understand... so I will let someone else indulge you... this is way over my head.

I understand - but Genesis 3:7 tells us what happened. They covered their nakedness with an apron of leaves. So when Adam told God that he was naked - he wasn't. He literally wasn't naked. Neither was he afraid when he disobeyed God and neither did his nakedness produce fear when he was with his wife. Still I understand your point about my writing. God Bless.

I wouldn't call it deep - but it can be difficult to lay hold of. Shalom
 

Adoration

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I understand - but Genesis 3:7 tells us what happened. They covered their nakedness with an apron of leaves. So when Adam told God that he was naked - he wasn't. He literally wasn't naked. Neither was he afraid when he disobeyed God and neither did his nakedness produce fear when he was with his wife. Still I understand your point about my writing. God Bless.

I wouldn't call it deep - but it can be difficult to lay hold of. Shalom
I am bowing out of this conversation out of respect... I delved into this discussion right off the bat NOT knowing if my comment would even be on topic.

I do not understand the connection between Adam NOT being naked... and psychology.
It is after the fall of man that sin came into the world.. and we are living in a day and age where sin abounds all the more. That is a fact.... so is it not more like what came first... the chicken or the egg?? It's all a down hill battle after Adam and Eve's disobedience.
 
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rhomphaeam

 
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I do not understand the connection between Adam NOT being naked... and psychology.

Not being naked is a behavioural response because it means to dress.

Being naked is a physical fact

Being clothed and yet afraid is a neurological behavioural predication in what is called Fight or Fight in psychology but points to the autonomic nervous system with the sympathetic and para sympathetic branches.

The relationship between hearing something (stimulus) i.e. hearing God call out - and the autonomic fear response based on a release of adrenaline into the blood stream and the way in which your mind (self awareness or cognition) responds to that FEAR in your blood stream transports into a behavioural response (fight or flight) so to hide is to run.

Neurophysiology (Autonomic Nervous System)
Experiential fear - the body
Psychological response - the mind

How that transports into the fruits of the flesh of Galatians 5:20-21 is the reality we have. And so to utilise psychology to address that character of the flesh is insanity in the churches. And if we say we don't see this in the churches then we must be either astonishingly innocent or else blind as a bat. But that is not my concern either. My concern is far more grave and more than likely I won't be addressing it here or anywhere else on line.

I won't get there on this formum or any other forum. So whist you suggest that you could imagine how I had waited for days (which made me smile also) I wait knowing that it is almost impossible to ask brethren to abstract themselves from their own emotional experiences in order to understand why the body is said to have in its very members - the law of sin and death.

Peter alludes that this inference is called Gnostic and then speaks of free grace to drive a meaning between Calvinism and Arminianism. Peter is capable of discussing this but he has shown that he is committed to a psychological meaning that is all too often now in the churches and whilst he laments his experience of how he has been treated historically - he may have missed that almost the entirety of the Christian faith is now given over to this effect. That is my concern because it has a very particular meaning biblically.

Rhomphaeam
 
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Adoration

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God bless you dearest rhomphaeam .... I sure wish I could follow what you are saying... but my little brain is incapable of it.
I do hope that you can find someone on your level to discuss things with... I tried... LOL
My life is very very simple... my thoughts are all on GOD.... and I delight in simply being filled with wonder and awe of Him. The only mystery I enjoy delving into is WHY HE loves us so much.
At least I also made you smile.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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God bless you dearest rhomphaeam .... I sure wish I could follow what you are saying......My life is very very simple... my thoughts are all on GOD.... and I delight in simply being filled with wonder and awe of Him. The only mystery I enjoy delving into is WHY HE loves us so much.
At least I also made you smile.

Indeed sister. Yours is the better portion. Amen
 
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Anyidontmind

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The key precept is FEAR because that is what Adam said he felt when he heard God calling out. And his following explanation had him express a reality and yet observationally a lie. He wasn't naked = he was afraid - he said he was naked and God asked who had told him that he was naked - then asked if he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We also have to see that God told Adam in the day he ate the fruit he would die. So here he was alive in his flesh and alive in himself. Yet according to God he had died else God is found a lair.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam Lived 930 years

But Something Changed that very day, That's where I find your study interesting, especially how it applies differently to the different aspects of our body soul and spirit.

So obviously we can rule out God been a liar, But Adam having sinned now brings in the aspect of The wages of sin is death, And now Adam through Fear of Death was subject to Bondage, also add the big situation of The devil who had the power of death It could never go well for man from that point onwards not while in these bodies of death, Its interesting you bring in Fig leaves been clothes, and by definition he did try to cloth himself, But even If Adam was wrong or for discussions purpose even saying he lied, he had already fallen at that point, so to even to call it a lie would be an expected answer after the fall as the bible says Let God be true, but every man a liar

When psychology deals with the mind and behavior, Looking to man after the Fall I would say you are going to see the repercussions, When you consider yourself Dead And your Life is hid with Christ in God, You can be lead by the spirit from the heart, Psychology cant deal with that from what I understand about psychology and I'm definitely no expert, also I haven't read the whole thread I will try go back and do so, I saw the least God be found a liar and jumped in, hopefully I'm on topic and added something to the discussion
 

Anyidontmind

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The only mystery I enjoy delving into is WHY HE loves us so much.

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

Also God doesn’t just love; He is love. And How much can one who is Love, Love there Children,

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The riches of his grace, The riches? The riches of his grace in kindness, You cant even comprehend His Riches, And yet while we where sinners He Loved us, we Love him because he loved us

Its a mystery that does your head in trying to figure out how God Loves us the way he does.

God’s very nature is love, He is going to demonstrate his love towards us, Its awesome to be a benefactor, Such an awesome God, Sometimes Easiest to stop thinking and just Something like "Thankyou Jesus"
 

rhomphaeam

 
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2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam Lived 930 years

But Something Changed that very day, That's where I find your study interesting, especially how it applies differently to the different aspects of our body soul and spirit.

So obviously we can rule out God been a liar, But Adam having sinned now brings in the aspect of The wages of sin is death, And now Adam through Fear of Death was subject to Bondage, also add the big situation of The devil who had the power of death It could never go well for man from that point onwards not while in these bodies of death, Its interesting you bring in Fig leaves been clothes, and by definition he did try to cloth himself, But even If Adam was wrong or for discussions purpose even saying he lied, he had already fallen at that point, so to even to call it a lie would be an expected answer after the fall as the bible says Let God be true, but every man a liar

When psychology deals with the mind and behavior, Looking to man after the Fall I would say you are going to see the repercussions, When you consider yourself Dead And your Life is hid with Christ in God, You can be lead by the spirit from the heart, Psychology cant deal with that from what I understand about psychology and I'm definitely no expert, also I haven't read the whole thread I will try go back and do so, I saw the least God be found a liar and jumped in, hopefully I'm on topic and added something to the discussion

arom (עָרוֹם, 6174), “naked.” This word occurs 16 times. The first occurrence is in Gen. 2:25: “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

רֹם [ʿeyrom, ʿerom /ay·rome/] adj n m. From 6191; TWOT 1588b; GK 6567; 10 occurrences; AV translates as “naked” nine times, and “nakedness” once. 1 naked. 2 nakedness.

Expresses the Lemma

The Greek reference 6567 is from Goodrick-Kohlenberger and in the Septuagint the manuscript says:

καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα.

gumnos (γυμνός) Lexical Bare

  1. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:25
  2. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." Genesis 3:7
  3. He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10

  1. וַיִּֽהְי֤וּ שְׁנֵיהֶם֙ עֲרוּמִּ֔ים הָֽאָדָ֖ם וְאִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְלֹ֖א יִתְבֹּשָֽׁשׁוּ׃ Genesis 2:25
  2. וַתִּפָּקַ֙חְנָה֙ עֵינֵ֣י שְׁנֵיהֶ֔ם וַיֵּ֣דְע֔וּ כִּ֥י עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם הֵ֑ם וַֽיִּתְפְּרוּ֙ עֲלֵ֣ה תְאֵנָ֔ה וַיַּעֲשׂ֥וּ לָהֶ֖ם חֲגֹרֹֽת׃Genesis 3:7
  3. וַיֹּ֕אמֶר אֶת־קֹלְךָ֥ שָׁמַ֖עְתִּי בַּגָּ֑ן וָאִירָ֛א כִּֽי־עֵירֹ֥ם אָנֹ֖כִי וָאֵחָבֵֽא׃ Genesis 3:10

  1. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ δύο γυμνοί, ὅ τε Ἀδὰμ καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ᾐσχύνοντο Genesis 2:25 (Manuscript Genesis 3:1)
  2. καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα. Genesis 3:7
  3. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Τὴν φωνήν σου ἤκουσα περιπατοῦντος ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ, καὶ ἐφοβήθην, ὅτι γυμνός εἰμι, καὶ ἐκρύβην Genesis 3:10

  1. Genesis 2:25 naked עֲרוּמִּ֔ים
  2. Genesis 3:7 naked עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם
  3. Genesis 3:10 naked עֵירֹ֥ם

  1. Genesis 2:25 naked γυμνοί
  2. Genesis 3:7 naked γυμνοὶ
  3. Genesis 3:10 naked γυμνός

To this:

מַעֲרֹם maʿărôm, mah-ar-ome´; from 6191, in the sense of stripping; bare:—naked.

עָרַם ʿâram, aw-ram´; a prim. root; prop. to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derived. sense (through the idea perhaps. of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense):—× very, beware, take crafty [counsel], be prudent, deal subtilely.

To this:

Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood." Ezekiel 18:2

Here are the two expressions idiomatically implicit in the references in Genesis 2:25, Genesis 3:7 and Genesis 3:10

Naked and bare don't mean the same thing in Genesis. Naked means to have no clothes on - bare means to have your mind stripped naked. It is that implicit meaning that gives rise to psychology as a VALID subject.

The fear that Adam felt when he was clothed in an apron of leaves is the stripped bare meaning - and not the naked meaning of having no clothes. That distinction speaks to the body in relationship to the mind. It is the most basic psychological precept that gives rise to behavioural psychological theories.

Physiologically it speaks of the autonomic nervous system with the sympathetic and para sympathetic junctions or branches. Psychophysiologically it speaks of the relationship between body and mind and predicated to emotional and behavioural responses. In psychology that precept is built upon by a theory called Operant Conditioning - the physiological predicate of neurophysiology is called Classical Conditioning.

What I am trying to do here is not claim that psychology is false in that basic sense of its meaning - I am trying to show that the churches have embraced psychological theories of behaviour in order to address the almost unfathomable level of anxiety and a lack of self worth that is expressed so well as a need to minister - it has robbed the church of the effectual purpose of the very Gospel.

It may seem like a lot of effort but the effect is also unspeakable because it has rendered many believers like children and so they may never mature and become as Paul adjured, more than mere men.
 

rhomphaeam

 
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Psychology explains why this love works and how trauma can be resolved. If you call this of the enemy you lose the gospel Jesus heals us through knowing His love in the cross. Love heals. God bless you

Sorry, Peter, this removes the meaning of the Gospel and replaces the cross with therapy. Show me any church in the UK where this meaning is not being promoted and where carnality and boastings and a parade are more appealing than true service. The web is filled with churches = thousands of them - show me one. One church where the leaders are the servants - one church where emotional predications don't inform every semblance of the gospel - one church where the theatre of political life hasn't corrupted the whole bread. Just one church.
 

eddif

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Isaiah 61:3 kjv
3. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

I think I need to do a couple of posts in different pots : meaning (separate concepts from each other).

To talk of physical nakedness is one thing, but Pardes raises the level to the spiritual.
Or
The parable of the Sower can raise physical nakedness to spiritual nakedness.

Adam lost his praise of God when he let the influence of the serpent / Eve sway his talks with God be replaced with the serpents speech,

…….. Break in thought

The Isaiah 61:3 passage has another concept in it. The progression from Repentance (mourning / fear) to the Righteousness of God.

eddif
 

eddif

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iMHO we do start out as a two part man (living soul).
Body full of symbols of things to come.

Major exception:
John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from:
Luke 1:15 kjv
15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

The Disciples had to wait for Pentecost.

The problem can be not letting the Word and the Word made flesh (Jesus) be our source of information.

eddif
 

PeterJens

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Sorry, Peter, this removes the meaning of the Gospel and replaces the cross with therapy. Show me any church in the UK where this meaning is not being promoted and where carnality and boastings and a parade are more appealing than true service. The web is filled with churches = thousands of them - show me one. One church where the leaders are the servants - one church where emotional predications don't inform every semblance of the gospel - one church where the theatre of political life hasn't corrupted the whole bread. Just one church.

I think this is where we need to get real about who we are as humans.
The gospel is about communion with Father through Christ. This is a relationship with all the aspects of a relationship and fundamentally emotions.

As people we are holders of facts, faith that acts on those facts and feelings. The Lord has declared behaviour in conformity to His commands leads to His blessing as it honours Him and His ways.

Better knowledge of how we work and why we work, helps us see the gospel and the ways of God more clearly.
Jordan Peterson and his observations have been enlightening. Humans are built to be worshippers of a Holy God walking in love. Whether they acknowledge God or not, they function best as if they do.

The theory of psychologists in regard to the ego, and being totally self centred is destructive, but equally loving oneself and acknowledging emotions, needs and reactions is part of loving God. The self punishment tendency of ascetism does not work or help as Paul points out. Accepting ourselves as lost sinners in need of a saviour is the first step. The second step is obedience through learning how to forgive, how to love, how to repent. All these things are impossible without Christ and His love working in our hearts.

One of the deep issues is not knowing the emotions of the heart. Paul was given a thorn to stop him becoming too proud. I have seen too many leaders who think they have arrived because people recognise them. Once you see the tendency of the heart to self deceive, you begin to see why everyday we need the cross and humbleness.

Salvation is sowing in faith to the Spirit. It is not earnt, but it is like saying we can live without food to not walk this is discipleship. It is like the apostles saying you do not have love if you hate your brother. I talked with many folk who were happy to see me dead, yet claimed they knew love and salvation. What they had was self congratulation of salvation without resolution and change, and what I shone a light on was where they actually were which they hated. And that hate was turned on me, as I obviously hated them to create this feeling. Paul put this dilemma in these terms

15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
2 Cor 2:15-16

The simple problem I have faced is the question as to why? And this is buried deep in peoples emotional makeup and feelings of guilt and shame.

We are in the gospel embedded in the emotional makeup of who we are, and making the paths straight, healing of our hearts, changing our behaviour and motivations are also embedded in this.

I have faced many people who claim you must be spiritual about everything while denying who they are emotionally and how this entraps them in sinful behaviour. Praise itself is a real emotional expression though I had someone claim they were not emotional at all in praise. But this illustrates how little people know who we are as people and what the gospel is as an eternally transforming power.

Love in our hearts. Love is Christ. Love is what changes and transforms us. God bless you
 
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