Psychology - A Warning

[rhomphaeam]

I think I need to either retract my statement or clarify it... as after reading yours and Christ_empowered's comments that came after mine... I realized I had made the statement that I AGREE with the world of psychology... However this is NOT the case...

My situation is perhaps unique in that ( for me ) I have found comfort in the diagnosis of exactly what my mental illness is. I suffer with two conditions... Severe Chronic Depression and Dysthymia ( which is persistent depressive disorder)... it's a low grade depression that NEVER goes away... and when I am hit with a seasonal episode of Chronic Depression... it's like having a double dose of the same disorder... which leads to great despair... and that is where FAITH comes in....

You are correct in that Psychology... by it's very definition is incapable of addressing spiritual matters.

My promotion or agreement is with the psychiatric medications... NOT with the world of psychology.

I have perhaps been blessed with a good doctor ( for the last 20 years )... she has worked with me... and watched
me closely.... I have only had one medication increase in 12 years... and it was from 100 mg to 125 mg.

So... all that to say that YES.... the field of psychiatry is NOT at all helpful to the CHRISTIAN... but the world of proper medication is often times a GOD-SEND.

All my success and growth has come from simply UNDERSTANDING and BELIEVING that God LOVES me... It is this ONE piece of knowledge that has changed EVERYTHING for me.

Sorry for the mis-communication. I am not familiar with the world of psychology.... as far as counselling goes. It has only been me and my family doctor trying to figure things out.

No problem Sister. I was tempted to say earlier when I asked the one line question at the end of my post - that the medication is a separate matter. But you came to it yourself. You sound as though you have been blessed with a good doctor. And from the sound of it with being able to stay out of psychological therapies.

 

[Adoration]

No problem Sister. I was tempted to say earlier when I asked the one line question at the end of my post - that the medication is a separate matter. But you came to it yourself. You sound as though you have been blessed with a good doctor. And from the sound of it with being able to stay out of psychological therapies.

Sometimes these discussions do have layers of issues.... and when I woke up and read what you and others had added... I realized I am pro-medication and anti-psychology... thanks for going easy on me...LOL

 

[PeterJens]

My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic with sadistic tendencies so I know first hand what that means. Yet I write as I do write. If I made my own experience a basis for explaining the Christian walk then I would be better to become a councillor or else a clinical psychologist. We are about the gospel of Christ and not therapy. If we are about therapy then there is no ability to even mention Christ in psychology unless we adopt a formal Christian modality such as Theotherapy - and if we do that we can almost remove ourselves from the entire field of approved councillors and psychologists in every state in the US and the entirety of Britain. I am not even generally concerned about that modality albeit that I don't practise it. What concerns me is what I stated in the first three posts of this thread.

And what I said as an opening disclosure was:

"The subject and application of psychology as social psychology, emphatically represents a union between men and the prince of the power of the air. It is a union which has its roots at the very dawn of this age, in the garden of Eden."

Now that cannot be a vague statement can it? Perhaps more pertinent the statement is expressed as social psychology and not simply psychology. The reason for that is because whilst psychology when applied as cognitive behavioural therapy in addressing anxiogenic cognitions (anxiety) or else somatic components (physical), in general anxiety disorder, it is social theatres that determine how the patient will benefit from the treatment and the treatment will not of itself achieve very much at all other than perhaps relaxation therapies for the somatic components.

Psychology is by its very definition incapable of addressing spiritual matters. So neither can our personal life experiences produce spiritual truth if we ground ourselves in emotional and cognitive precepts. We either receive what we have been given from the Scripture or else we remove from a claim to biblical truth when we express ourselves mind and body. I already explained that previously but of course you are free to express yourself as you feel led.

Rhomphaeam

Here is the problem. We are emotional creatures with motivations and tendencies. Jesus calls us to address these very things. Put our trust, love, praise in Him. Be remade us in His image. Follow His ways. Bless when cursed, count ourselves as nothing and Him as everything.
Jesus speaks to who we are. Psychology explains why this love works and how trauma can be resolved. If you call this of the enemy you lose the gospel Jesus heals us through knowing His love in the cross. Love heals. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

Here is the problem. We are emotional creatures with motivations and tendencies. Jesus calls us to address these very things. Put our trust, love, praise in Him. Be remade in His image. Follow His ways. Bless when cursed, count ourselves as nothing and Him as everything.
Jesus speaks to who we are. Psychology explains why this love works and how tr

I think the point being made is that psychology does not address spiritual matters... It deals with changing behaviours...without addressing the whole individual... .physical... mental...spiritual. All three of these are
part of the whole of who we are.

I do agree that psychology has it's place with wounded and broken souls... but this is not what occurs... It is
individual counsellors who can make a difference... in combination with proper medication.

I have seen several psychiatrists in my life... due to hospitalizations... and none of them were helpful in any way... shape or form.

I am blessed that I have not needed any care within this profession since my last and final hospitalization in 2008. I wanted a proper diagnosis after decades of being mis-diagnosed... and I got it. This allowed me to bring my issues to Jesus... but I first needed to know what was wrong with me.

This is a complex issue... and those who are broken NEED truly caring professionals... sadly this is not found in either psychiatry or psychology. That is my opinion anyways.

 

[PeterJens]

Emotions and mental illness
How we handle stress and fear is part of growing up. If our systems get overloaded our brains add illusion and delusion on top.

Jesus through peace and love, forgiveness and acceptance a place of rest. When we dwell here it changes how we experience threats, danger, pain etc. For this to take place we have to open up, to let His truth in and most of all admit our hurt and needs which we deny and hide.
Simplistic applying God loves you, the cross saves you does not work and is not useful.
What I have found is many believers use faith like a shield to justify who they are as sinners, without any desire to change or learn the way of Christ.

Knowledge of deep motivations etc helps us see why we need the way of Christ and how to distinguish between manipulation and real spirituality. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

Jesus through peace and love, forgiveness and acceptance a place of rest. When we dwell here it changes how we experience threats, danger, pain etc. For this to take place we have to open up, to let His truth in and most of all admit our hurt and needs which we deny and hide.
Simplistic applying God loves you, the cross saves you does not work and is not useful.
What I have found is many believers use faith like a shield to justify who they are as sinners, without any desire to change or learn the way of Christ.

I am agreeing somewhat with what you have stated.... EXCEPT you move onto the issue of changed behaviour... which is often something that Christians deem their responsibility to "correct and judge" in others.

Who are these many believers that are using their faith like a shield to justify their sin?? This is a very legalistic outlook on things.

 

[PeterJens]

I think the point being made is that psychology does not address spiritual matters... It deals with changing behaviours...without addressing the whole individual... .physical... mental...spiritual. All three of these are
part of the whole of who we are.

I do agree that psychology has it's place with wounded and broken souls... but this is not what occurs... It is
individual counsellors who can make a difference... in combination with proper medication.

I have seen several psychiatrists in my life... due to hospitalizations... and none of them were helpful in any way... shape or form.

I am blessed that I have not needed any care within this profession since my last and final hospitalization in 2008. I wanted a proper diagnosis after decades of being mis-diagnosed... and I got it. This allowed me to bring my issues to Jesus... but I first needed to know what was wrong with me.

This is a complex issue... and those who are broken NEED truly caring professionals... sadly this is not found in either psychiatry or psychology. That is my opinion anyways.

I agree blind men cannot help. My kids have all had therapy which helped them talk through their experiences and trauma. I see this process as feeling the pain, the sea of different things bashing together with a trusted third party.

My problem with this is it can get too self centred and justifies the feelings when they can simply be wrong and sinful. But it helps many to be real with so few good friendships to support them.

On the medication front, only professionals can prescribe, and such drugs can bring life to many and so I 100% support this. It kept my sister alive for 40 years.

In that sense I have to accept when biology has overtaken perception, spirituality has its limitations. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

PeterJens ... It is absolutely NOT my intention to come against anyone... This is a brilliant conversation that needs to be had...

I have no idea what you are referring to when you state this.

My problem with this is it can get too self centred and justifies the feelings when they can simply be wrong and sinful. But it helps many to be real with so few good friendships to support them.

 

[Adoration]

On the medication front, only professionals can prescribe, and such drugs can bring life to many and so I 100% support this. It kept my sister alive for 40 years.

I agree that this is a job only the professionals can do... and I am a living testimony to what you have just stated.

 

[PeterJens]

I am agreeing somewhat with what you have stated.... EXCEPT you move onto the issue of changed behaviour... which is often something that Christians deem their responsibility to "correct and judge" in others.

Who are these many believers that are using their faith like a shield to justify their sin?? This is a very legalistic outlook on things.

Gnostic view of faith says our flesh is evil and only our spirit is holy and good. In their view sinful behaviour is just being human, and does not change. They pride themselves as unchanged and honest to admit their failure. Free grace theology goes down this line as well as some strong Calvinistic views.
One contbributer admitted to being an addict. I could see how his theology matched his behaviour.

A friend who was counseling a client shared this individual behaved how they were expected to behave but never knew how they felt or if this was real. It was like a fake person living their life.

Jesus calls us to be real because we love from the heart. It raises the question how many know this love? Can a psychopath love? I think everyone can, but it varies how. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

PeterJens ... I guess I am one of those FREE Grace people. I don't know what the gnostic view is... or even what it means... My heart speaks as a very broken person... who has been convinced (by God Himself) that I am valued... cherished and deeply loved... It is this knowledge and ONLY this knowledge that has made a difference in my life.
I spent 20 years searching for the real JESUS... I was told a great many lies about what I NEED to do to be a Christian...

When a soul works out that they are loved by God... everything else falls into place... In the mean time... it's a white knuckling experience ( fake it till you make it ).

Jesus does indeed call us to be real... and HONEST.

I am trying to get a proper and true perspective on what you are trying to say.

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens ... It is absolutely NOT my intention to come against anyone... This is a brilliant conversation that needs to be had...

I have no idea what you are referring to when you state this.

Good question. This is the rabbit hole of the heart. Our hearts will always justify its response to others, in hurt, pain or anger. We forget the hurt we have caused, the sin and weaknesses in others we trigger that often cause the lashing out.

So when alone only looking at our own reactions, this is just one part of a complex system. What helped me is to follow forgiveness and love. When I can love another and forgive them, I can reach the place of what God sees.

A rotten tree falling over can hurt me. It's not the trees fault it's rotten, but mine for getting too close. So much defence and anger comes from not seeing the inevitable and letting Jesus heal. My family were incapable of open love and care, so it was lonely and hard. But I still love them and care as I can. God bless

 

[Adoration]

PeterJens .... Thank you for taking the time to engage in conversation with me.

I think we have some issues we agree on... but I'm still a bit confused as to your stance regarding the Christian perspective.

As a Christian... I know when I have reacted incorrectly... and I find until I can match my perspective with God's perspective... I will always be in turmoil. The difference for me in this last year... is that my heart is fully engaged with how I SHOULD feel and see things. ( The Christian way ).

Some hurts and traumas run DEEP.... and so unless a true sudden miracle occurs.... one is left working out the MESS of it all.

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens ... I guess I am one of those FREE Grace people. I don't know what the gnostic view is... or even what it means... My heart speaks as a very broken person... who has been convinced (by God Himself) that I am valued... cherished and deeply loved... It is this knowledge and ONLY this knowledge that has made a difference in my life.
I spent 20 years searching for the real JESUS... I was told a great many lies about what I NEED to do to be a Christian...

When a soul works out that they are loved by God... everything else falls into place... In the mean time... it's a white knuckling experience ( fake it till you make it ).

Jesus does indeed call us to be real... and HONEST.

I am trying to get a proper and true perspective on what you are trying to say.

Amen. You know Jesus. You are not a free grace believer but actually born again.

Emotional reality of knowing you are loved by the creator of the universe changes everything. This is my walk also.

It is a white knuckle ride, giving up oneself and trusting Him. When I shared similarly to you one believer called me a liar. I found this odd, because when you share your life, there is no lying.

But for them if I was true they did not know Jesus or His transformation. They spent the next year trying to expose me, by actually lying and deceiving to show how evil I was. It was ironic they sinned to show failure in their view. To me that is true spiritual blindness. God bless

 

[Adoration]

It is a white knuckle ride, giving up oneself and trusting Him. When I shared similarly to you one believer called me a liar. I found this odd, because when you share your life, there is no lying.

But for them is I was true they did not know Jesus or His transformation. They spent the next year trying to expose me, by actually lying and deceiving to show how evil I was. It was ironic the sinned to show failure in their view. To me that is true spiritual blindness. God bless

I'm sorry this happened to you... Sadly... there seems to be a problem with many believers not being able to get past the white knuckle stage of faith... I'm not sure why this is... but I know for myself... It took a great deal of EFFORT on my part to WRESTLE out my salvation... and my position in CHRIST. It is something I spent years seeking and searching for...

Now that I know and understand WHO I AM in CHRIST... everything that comes my way is handled with the certainty that God is GOOD ... HE Loves me... and I am in total need of HIM in my life for everything.

 

[PeterJens]

PeterJens .... Thank you for taking the time to engage in conversation with me.

I think we have some issues we agree on... but I'm still a bit confused as to your stance regarding the Christian perspective.

As a Christian... I know when I have reacted incorrectly... and I find until I can match my perspective with God's perspective... I will always be in turmoil. The difference for me in this last year... is that my heart is fully engaged with how I SHOULD feel and see things. ( The Christian way ).

Some hurts and traumas run DEEP.... and so unless a true sudden miracle occurs.... one is left working out the MESS of it all.

I know what you mean. I lost my sister this summer and my brother in law went totally antagonistic. It's hard to say what shifted in me but something did, in grief, in being told I did not love unless I was totally devistated.

To be rejected and verberly destroyed over doing good things but not enough is absurd.

Unconditional love. Somehow we need this though Jesus alone can provide. My brother in law was judging me that I was obligated to love like this towards my sister. Ironic that she was not obligated the other way or him.

Knowing my heart needed this love, but judged others as if they could provide was healing. Because Jesus could love and I forgive. God bless

 

[Adoration]

I know what you mean. I lost my sister this summer and my brother in law went totally antagonistic. It's hard to say what shifted in me but something did, in grief, in being told I did not love unless I was totally devistated.

To be rejected and verberly destroyed over doing good things but not enough is absurd.

Unconditional love. Somehow we need this though Jesus alone can provide. My brother in law was judging me that I was obligated to love like this towards my sister. Ironic that she was not obligated the other way or him.

Knowing my heart needed this love, but judged others as if they could provide was healing. Because Jesus could love and I forgive. God bless

God BLESS you Peter... I'm very sorry for your loss... It has been lovely having this conversation with you.
Tenderly... Addy

 

[eddif]

Good question. This is the rabbit hole of the heart. Our hearts will always justify its response to others, in hurt, pain or anger. We forget the hurt we have caused, the sin and weaknesses in others we trigger that often cause the lashing out.

So when alone only looking at our own reactions, this is just one part of a complex system. What helped me is to follow forgiveness and love. When I can love another and forgive them, I can reach the place of what God sees.

A rotten tree falling over can hurt me. It's not the trees fault it's rotten, but mine for getting too close. So much defence and anger comes from not seeing the inevitable and letting Jesus heal. My family were incapable of open love and care, so it was lonely and hard. But I still love them and care as I can. God bless

Ok In one sense. The natural human heart is hardened.

In another sense we can not change the heart by our actions.

The only solution is to open the door to Jesus entering and ministering to our heart.

Cardiac conduction system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The crucified Jesus has the ability to cause the heart to respond like a heart of flesh, and do away with the stony heart.

The symbolism of the natural pacemaker is just that.
Bones out of joint.
Crown of thornd
Pierced hands and feet
Marred beyond the semblance of man.

Jesus is knocking at the door . Do you hear his voice.

The religious leaders condemned Jesus
The Roman Government declared him innocent.

The Roman Government just did not have a solution.

Psychology may declare us innocent, but it lacks the power to heal.

Open the door.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[PeterJens]

I'm sorry this happened to you... Sadly... there seems to be a problem with many believers not being able to get past the white knuckle stage of faith... I'm not sure why this is... but I know for myself... It took a great deal of EFFORT on my part to WRESTLE out my salvation... and my position in CHRIST. It is something I spent years seeking and searching for...

Now that I know and understand WHO I AM in CHRIST... everything that comes my way is handled with the certainty that God is GOOD ... HE Loves me... and I am in total need of HIM in my life for everything.

This might sound judgemental, but those who cannot talk about love and Jesus do not know Him.

Time and again I met believers on line who claimed faith but had closed hard hearts. Now argument, theology, is not going to get through because they do not connect with Jesus.

As I learnt and grew they stayed locked in to their view and life, like a prison. Even on this forum some recognise the divide and use language of waiting for God to speak. But on the subject of love, He has spoken and there is no compromise.
God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Ok In one sense. The natural human heart is hardened.

In another sense we can not change the heart by our actions.

The only solution is to open the door to Jesus entering and ministering to our heart.

Cardiac conduction system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The crucified Jesus has the ability to cause the heart to respond like a heart of flesh, and do away with the stony heart.

The symbolism of the natural pacemaker is just that.
Bones out of joint.
Crown of thornd
Pierced hands and feet
Marred beyond the semblance of man.

Jesus is knocking at the door . Do you hear his voice.

The religious leaders condemned Jesus
The Roman Government declared him innocent.

The Roman Government just did not have a solution.

Psychology may declare us innocent, but it lacks the power to heal.

Open the door.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Psychology is a mess. Jesus alone sorts things out.
Therapy has opened the door to people hearing their feelings and finding a way through. My point is understanding feelings, listening to one's heart is part of knowing Jesus, not an enemy.

Jesus on the cross is the best medicine anyone can have. To know the Son of God died for our sin, took on pain, torture freely to show us His love, it's power, it's overcoming and promise a walk with Him into eternity, this is life.

If this love does not hit one emotionally, is one alive? It changed me eternally to see Him there for me.

So psychology describes man, maybe poorly, but equally knowing Jesus changes us so the two descriptions need to agree.

I know He heals me because I see Him as He is by faith. God bless