Psychology - A Warning

[PeterJens]

Its there Peter and I will leave you to read it as you said inferentially that some believers are not exacting. I also cited some meanings from CBT in another post and you haven't responded to them. Stop playing with your sense of the supposed lack of exactness of words when expressed as a cognitive dissonance where words are simply not read and start applying that exactness you spoke about by reading the words I wrote properly. Adam was not naked as in a meaning of being unclothed. This is not a Taylor Shop discourse where we think of suits and fine linen it is a biblical meaning that is self proclaiming and doesn't need to be obfuscated to another meaning. Adam was not naked when he hid from God. Why did he say that he was? That is the predicative charge of a man who was an atheist and in recent years is earning a profound reputation in psychology because of his biological experiments over 100 years ago. I studied him nearly forty years ago at University. CBT is what precisely Peter - and where did it come from as a modality of therapy?

"Adam was not naked as in a meaning of being unclothed"

This is a contradictatory statement in regard to the scripture that says he was naked.
One reason I would suggest it means he was physically naked is because there is no mention of clothes until God got skins to cloth Adam and Eve. Secondly it is clear in the law, showing the nakedness of ones self or parents etc is sinful. The story of Noah and getting drunk is one such situation.

Now equally naked can also mean emotionally vulnerable. One could say taking the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil resolved this nakedness or need to trust God for working out future behaviour.

What makes me wonder is why this issue is so touchy for yourself?

Your analysis of psychology is one of distaste rather than empirical. I am not interested in how people come to their conclusions but whether their conclusions are helpful. I am interested theologically in regard to the balance of impulse and disposition with choice. This is important in regard to sin and responsibility, homosexual behaviour along with transgender issues. We can simply say the commandments condemn this behaviour and clearly see why it is unhelpful, but when faced with people torn apart by conflicting desires, this does not help much.

In our house group, one daughter of a member is bisexual, while another has married their partner both being male. You get to the point of loving people in the situation while also being aware both people have permanent medication for mental health issues and cannot cope well with normal life.

The modern discussion about identity and gender for me is irrelevant. I am who I am and explore how I react to different situations. I once tried on by mistake a jacket that was female and felt so bad. So I do not really know how others experience such things, but I wish to honour the Lord and show love where I can. God bless you

 

[eddif]

YEP....

I was in edit mode. I had bumped send too early. So that post you responded to has grown.

I have listened to sermons about the tongue being impossible to tame and turn around and say stop it. I sit there and think you just quoted the scripture and your opinion is just opposite .

I just have to go back and admit I blew it
( I think I am on the edge of error in the last 20?posts about psychology). I just know the Roman leader found Jesus clean as a sacrifice. Not a priest but a Roman. So right in the midst of disaster there may be a statement that is correct.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Thats true - and if we take it off we get arc eye just as John fell down in a faint when he saw the glorified Christ - so better to put on the helmet of salvation and begin to see with new eyes. The gospel itself prepares us to see - just as claiming to see when we are blind - sin remains. It is in truth not symbolism at all - it is spiritual reality and we need to begin to see by faith what we have been given in our inner parts.

1 Corinthians 13:10 kjv
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


1 Corinthians 15:52 kjv
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


2 Timothy 2:18 kjv
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I guess my thoughts on when / how we change:
When
How
Flesh
Spirit
May differ from accepted norms.

Our final completeness IMHO only comes at the judgement throne. Is the change ensured by faith now? Yes. Has it manifested? No not completely.
Gather 7 groups together and you may get 20 different versions about when etc.

It is the ones that can be overthrown that slows me down some. I see True prophecy as a done deal, but I realize I have to calm down and see if I need to use care in identifying the exact twinkling of an eye it happens.

We do not fight against flesh and blood. To tell the truth ( this grieves me) the temptation has been to go out in the parking lot and settle a subject. Or at a keyboard, or at a touch screen, but we are all to have the same mind. As a Mississippi redneck I have to really watch who I think I am. An attack helicopter with night vision and directional microphones can just about locate me within 4 inches. My way of getting something don is not Gods way.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Christ_empowered]

Psychological treatments have a high failure rate. It is pseudoscience. The patients walk away with their minds filled with heady high minded worldly wisdom and very little in terms of benefits. Insurance companies and even governments often have to pay for this and the mental health industry demands more and more money for treatment every year with few benefits and an ever widening criteria for who needs treatment.

 

[rhomphaeam]

What makes me wonder is why this issue is so touchy for yourself?

Your analysis of psychology is one of distaste rather than empirical. I am not interested in how people come to their conclusions but whether their conclusions are helpful. I am interested theologically in regard to the balance of impulse and disposition with choice. This is important in regard to sin and responsibility, homosexual behaviour along with transgender issues. We can simply say the commandments condemn this behaviour and clearly see why it is unhelpful, but when faced with people torn apart by conflicting desires, this does not help much.

And just to set the record straight. My analysis of psychology is based on working in mental health since the late 1970's. Yours on the other hand appears to be based on your feelings. As to the touchy feely thing of my feelings - don't even go there. Stop blabbing and start being rational. We are taking about eternal life and the meaning of salvation not choosing sweets in a sweet shop.

 

[PeterJens]

I am sorry. Adam and Eve were naked before they sewed fig leaves together.
Every sunday school child learns this. So I wonder what you are talking about.

"Nonsensical emotional diatribe", suggests to me that you are not in touch with your own emotions.

There is a spiritual reality. Jesus makes our paths straight. Jesus sets us free. Jesus brings us life to the full.
These are all emotional statements. One could argue they are spiritual statements, except they do not make sense from that perspective. What sinners experience is what Paul describes, being bound to sin, like a slave. We are aware of what is wrong, but cannot stop ourselves doing it. This is an emotional behaviour pattern.

It is not a rational behaviour pattern, because our minds acknowledge we do not want to behave like this, and we want to be good, yet we do what we do not want to do. This means we have in us a force which governs our behaviour which we are only partly aware of. And this force is our needs and the emotional means we have learnt to meet those needs while growing up in the world. You could describe this as our true selves.

If the gospel cannot change this, of what value is this? If the gospel is powerless to establish new balances and interactions, what is being born again all about? This is essentially why the free grace movement took off. If faith is salvation without change, then it is purely spiritual and not emotional.

Now since being a teenager and following Jesus I have believed above all Jesus talks to us as whole beings, including our emotional reactions and background. He is about the transformational experience of learning how to forgive, how to love ones enemy, how to walk humbly and accept where we are. Working through how emotionally we rebel against this, and letting Him through the cross mold us, we become different people.

Jesus calls us to see the Fathers will and Kingdom working out into todays world through His people. And everywhere I share and look, His people are there. So I praise the Lord, that He has planted good seed and it is bearing fruit.
God bless you

 

[Free]

Psychological treatments have a high failure rate. It is pseudoscience. The patients walk away with their minds filled with heady high minded worldly wisdom and very little in terms of benefits.

It’s a tool that has its place and limitations.

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 9:22 kjv
22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Ok
Adam was in sin over eating of the tree of good and evil.

Fig leaves will not cover sin, the hides required an animal to shed blood. This is Pardes in action. Maybe the first hint that Jesus would shed his blood for our sins.

They could have woven all sorts of thick fabric and not covered their sin. God saw through their attempt to cover sin. Today we can still try and cover sin with all sorts of words, ceremonies, and actions, but Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby you may be saved.
I am passionate about this fact. It is not my fact I heard this in a Presbyterian church. Ain’t my idea at all. Probably Baptists and others preach this all the time.

eddif

 

[PeterJens]

And just to set the record straight. My analysis of psychology is based on working in mental health since the late 1970's. Yours on the other hand appears to be based on your feelings. As to the touchy feely thing of my feelings - don't even go there. Stop blabbing and start being rational. We are taking about eternal life and the meaning of salvation not choosing sweets in a sweet shop.

I hear you. You think you are a rational being with these emotional feelings as a nuisance.
I would suggest we are actually emotional creatures who use our minds to model the world and build emotional stability. Mental illness occurs when the emotions cannot be stabilised and the mind builds more and more extreme models to match the emotions, except the emotions have gone wild and random, so without blocking them out, the individual literally falls apart.

A simple test of this, is we interact 99% of the time through learnt processes and interaction conventions. We predict the likely emotional outcome and use them all the time. If something goes wrong, and we get upset, it takes forever to work out new strategies and setup a new process. You could argue we are mainly on autopilot most of the time.

Taking this view, who are we then? Are we mainly these learnt processes and interactions or something more? And if these processes lead us to sin and judgement, what hope do we have of forgiveness if we refuse to let go and change?

Paul had the idea he was presenting the disciples to Christ at the day of judgement as perfect followers of Jesus.

28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
Col 1:28

How we judge and what we regard as success or failure is often very different in Jesus's eyes. In our house group most of the concern and worries are about things of this world, and how they measure themselves are often about how they come across rather than focused of caring and loving others.

Men often talk about facts and proof, when in reality most of the issues are around hurt, pain, unforgiveness and pride. One brother I know well felt fellow house group members where denying Christ if they did not witness to Jesus in every situation they were in. The subtlety of the difference between love and friendship and just pushing a belief had passed him by. These were believing, loving, witnessing followers of Jesus, but in his eyes, deniers.

A lot of people know the gospel well, but leave a fellowship when everyone knows the words but does not care about how others are, or are interested in being their friend or support. It is easy to talk alone, much harder when it is face to face with others who cause a lot of emotional turmoil one does not know what to do with. But it is here where love truly starts to work out. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Genesis says Adam and Eve where naked.
Fig leaves were sown to cover them up.

This clearly what scripture says. Somewhere in your logic you cannot accept this and regard me as having a learning disability. This is a classic example of cognitive disonance where a conclusion is so emotionally explosive it cannot be seen. But I wonder what is so explosive you need to do this jump? On a purely observational level, you are not capable of declaring this, because then it would unravel you, so I have to leave it there.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

"We are taking about eternal life and the meaning of salvation not choosing sweets in a sweet shop."

I like this line. But what am I? A bunch of memories. A whole series of programmed response strategies. A series of actions and interactions with other people. A child of a family, a worker, a father, a brother.

I used to think Jesus at the last trumpet would magically transform me into this perfect representation of Jesus.
As I have grown older, I have noticed we often live like contradictory people depending on who we are with.
Imagine if these people met themselves? Would that person be a mess or be totally consistent.
It made me wonder if in Christ, being consistent from heart to skin, in every situation, we are truly eternally real, standing on the foundation of Christ and His nature, through the Holy Spirit.

So eternal life becomes bringing into eternity, the light of the Father this redeemed born again consistent person.
Salvation is the opening of the door to the heart to let love in and build true robustness and love which is eternal.

Now to put this in plain language, I am extremely sceptical of those who talk facts but no reality, who regard our hearts and emotions as sweets in a sweet shop.

Prayer is expressing our hearts to the Lord to bring blessing into other peoples lives.
Praise is our hearts lifting up to Jesus the affirmation and glory of who He is.
We are commanded to love will all our heart, strength and mind. Now this very command promises it is possible, and that it is complete.

Promise and where we are. We often are not in this place of prayer and praise, we are caught up if many emotions and conflicts. What Jesus declares is amen, see the prize and move towards it, I will help you.

One problem with the knowledge of good and evil, temptation is always there, but we can learn strategies and focus so we stay on the path. It is through faith we walk on and stay true, even if we stumble. Peter stumbled when he denied Jesus, but came back. Praise God he always has an open door. God bless you

 

[Free]

“Naked” is relative. It need not necessarily mean completely without clothing. A person in a swimsuit would feel naked amongst a group of fully clothed people. A person with a high, and new, sense of guilt and shame about their sin and nakedness may very well feel naked with a simple leaf covering.

 

[rhomphaeam]

“Naked” is relative. It need not necessarily mean completely without clothing. A person in a swimsuit would feel naked amongst a group of fully clothed people. A person with a high, and new, sense of guilt and shame about their sin and nakedness may very well feel naked with a simple leaf covering.

Adam was afraid when he heard God. This is not a psychological discussion it is a Christian forum and the OP was written in plain English. Speculations aren't needed anymore than telling people that they can feel anything they want to feel has done anyone any good in mental health. The term naked is set into a specific meaning and not an academic one or an endless speculation as to what constitutes nakedness. Adam was afraid. FEAR is the bottom line predication for all psychological aberrant behaviour. God bless America.

 

[Free]

Adam was afraid when he heard God. This is not a psychological discussion it is a Christian forum and the OP was written in plain English. Speculations aren't needed anymore than telling people that they can feel anything they want to feel has done anyone any good in mental health. The term naked is set into a specific meaning and not an academic one or an endless speculation as to what constitutes nakedness.

So, the question I have for you is, can you find support for your idea of what is meant by “naked” anywhere in either historical or modern writings of scholars, theologians, etc.?

FEAR is the bottom line predication for all psychological aberrant behaviour.

What about chemical imbalances, chemically induced, environmental, or physiologically induced aberrant behaviours that often may have nothing to do with fear?

Maybe we should consider, in a fallen world, just what is and what isn’t psychologically aberrant behaviour. Biblically speaking, is it not the behaviour produced by the Spirit’s working in the behaviour that is aberrant?

 

[PeterJens]

Last post Peter.

Adam was naked

Then he sinned

Now Adam knows that he is naked and feels shame

Adam covers his loins to remove the shame of his nakedness

Adam hides from God and tells God he is naked.

What I asked was - was Adam naked when he hid from God?

Here we are more than a score of posts later and you tell me that Adam was naked because I say he covered his nakedness - I even suggested to be RATIONAL - predicative to understanding anything - that we are not talking about a Taylors sense of being clothed. So then I assert yet again that Adam was not naked - which could only mean in context of the assertion implicit in the original question that Adam said to God that he was naked - I even suggested to be RATIONAL - predicative to understanding anything - that a woman with a bikini on a beach is not naked - and now in finality you yell me that "I am sorry. Adam and Eve were naked before they sewed fig leaves together. Every sunday school child learns this. So I wonder what you are talking about.

And you can't even see where the meaning of psychology comes from after all that. FEAR

All you or anyone else had to do to answer the original question - "was Adam naked when he hid himself from God" - was to read a few verses of scripture. But instead what we see is a reliance on emotional precepts - the very thing you favour and I reject utterly when trying to grasp the word of God. Were done and more than - so am I with this forum. Utter insanity. It's utterly pointless to ask many believers to be even remotely rational.

What did you believe this meant?

1. "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:25
2. "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings." Genesis 3:7
3. He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10

1. וַיִּֽהְי֤וּ שְׁנֵיהֶם֙ עֲרוּמִּ֔ים הָֽאָדָ֖ם וְאִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְלֹ֖א יִתְבֹּשָֽׁשׁוּ׃ Genesis 2:25
2. וַתִּפָּקַ֙חְנָה֙ עֵינֵ֣י שְׁנֵיהֶ֔ם וַיֵּ֣דְע֔וּ כִּ֥י עֵֽירֻמִּ֖ם הֵ֑ם וַֽיִּתְפְּרוּ֙ עֲלֵ֣ה תְאֵנָ֔ה וַיַּעֲשׂ֥וּ לָהֶ֖ם חֲגֹרֹֽת׃Genesis 3:7
3. וַיֹּ֕אמֶר אֶת־קֹלְךָ֥ שָׁמַ֖עְתִּי בַּגָּ֑ן וָאִירָ֛א כִּֽי־עֵירֹ֥ם אָנֹ֖כִי וָאֵחָבֵֽא׃ Genesis 3:10

1. καὶ ἦσαν οἱ δύο γυμνοί, ὅ τε Ἀδὰμ καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ, καὶ οὐκ ᾐσχύνοντο Genesis 2:25 (Manuscript Genesis 3:1)
2. καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο, καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν· καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα. Genesis 3:7
3. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Τὴν φωνήν σου ἤκουσα περιπατοῦντος ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ, καὶ ἐφοβήθην, ὅτι γυμνός εἰμι, καὶ ἐκρύβην Genesis 3:10

Yet you have the emotional confidence to tell me that I am disconnected from my feelings and that too many believers are not exacting enough with their words. Really?

You see something which brings significance that others do not.
Until Adam and Eve had clothes, fig leaves or skins they were naked.
You could argue Adam clothed himself by hiding.

You have a very worked out criticism of psychology.
My observation is the idea that all people are the same, and there is no such thing as mental illness, is a problem in the theology of the church.

I will equate this to another problem. A believer has faith, a good relationship with the Lord. They suffer dementia and lose all understanding of life. At the resurrection who is resurrected?

If one can separate mental disorders from who we are in Christ, where is our responsibility or standing before Jesus? What is also clear, is people vary a great deal, and how each relate to love, one another varies but is also amazingly consistent. It is easy to talk about facts, theological positions, much harder to talk about hearts of flesh, love, care, empathy, weeping with those who weep, rejoicing with those who rejoice.

For my father faith was so private he hated anyone who talked openly with regard to their faith.
He was very shy and closed down. From the outside faith was a nice idea but purely a behaviour you did not because it was real.

So we need a real view of what a true mature disciple in Christ is?

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
James 1:2-8

To be this stable, we have to be emotionally stable and real. God bless you

 

[Adoration]

All you or anyone else had to do to answer the original question - "was Adam naked when he hid himself from God" -

I did answer... LOL... Just saying... my answer was apparently wrong... BUT... I was brave... and answered... LOL

 

[Adoration]

FEAR is the bottom line predication for all psychological aberrant behaviour.

That is quite the statement... Fear is NOT the bottom line of chemical imbalances. WOW...
I tried so hard to keep up with this discussion. I think I'm done now.

You seem to be lacking such patience... yet it is your own posts that are very difficult to decipher and understand.
I am sorry you seem so frustrated with those who have posted here.

GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!!!

 

[rhomphaeam]

So, the question I have for you is, can you find support for your idea of what is meant by “naked” anywhere in either historical or modern writings of scholars, theologians, etc.?


What about chemical imbalances, chemically induced, environmental, or physiologically induced aberrant behaviours that often may have nothing to do with fear?

Maybe we should consider, in a fallen world, just what is and what isn’t psychologically aberrant behaviour. Biblically speaking, is it not the behaviour produced by the Spirit’s working in the behaviour that is aberrant?

Why do you need a scholar to tell you what naked means when the bible tells you what naked means in one meaning of Genesis 2:25. And then in another sense of Genesis 3:7 what covering ones genitalia means? So similarly, how can asking a simple question about whether Adam was naked when he hid from God, on a thread that is self presented as having a concern for psychology in the churches not be also self evidently grounded in the reason Adam himself gave for why he hid - and his behaviour was to hide and his reason was because he was afraid because he was naked. Genesis 3:10.

How can any of that need either a theologian or an academic scholar to understand? It cannot other than to know that in Behaviourism as a school of psychological thinking behaviour is predicated on a claim to environmental stimuli and does not consider physiological processes as relevant. Internal physiological processes that derive from an autonomic function of the central nervous system known as the sympathetic and para sympathetic junctions are not considered to be relevant to behaviourism. So as behaviourism is the dominant modality used in the churches to reinforce positive learning, then the thing that stimulated Adam to hide was God himself. In that scheme God is always responsible for aberrant behaviour. What I am trying to demonstrate is what is actually going on in the mind of Adam and to express that I refer to the Flight or Fight response stem of the sympathetic nervous system because that is what Adam expresses. He says that he is afraid and hid himself because he was naked. Classical conditioning and Operant Conditioning speak to that modality and is included in behavioural psychology as a general term of trying to understand behaviour. But I have said numerous times this OP was not about trying to establish what behaviourism or behavioural psychology means - it was to initially simply ask the question was Adam naked when he hid himself.

It hasn't even been possible to get beyond that simple question.

 

[PeterJens]

Adam was afraid when he heard God. This is not a psychological discussion it is a Christian forum and the OP was written in plain English. Speculations aren't needed anymore than telling people that they can feel anything they want to feel has done anyone any good in mental health. The term naked is set into a specific meaning and not an academic one or an endless speculation as to what constitutes nakedness. Adam was afraid. FEAR is the bottom line predication for all psychological aberrant behaviour. God bless America.

Fear you could argue is the foundation of why we survive at all.
Babies are born cautious and easily scared, and need continual reassurance to grow and explore life and their surroundings.

One could say fear is the bottom line predication for all psychological good behaviour.

I have discovered when you start to talk about our perception, emotions and facts are mixed together.
It is impossible for us to separate the two, because the way we conclude anything is through our emotional conclusion once we have finished going through something.

Things get worse. We only know anything, is by going through a series of sentences and at the end agreeing that it is right. If we have a problem, we repeat the process until we find the issue. Our way of summarising this process is two emotions. One is being happy and content and the other is worried and wondering, maybe fearful.

To secure our sense of security, we talk about facts, certainty, things that cannot shift. But this underlines the reality, it is all perception and our emotional conclusions. Because of insecurity we exaggerate the certainty and definitively declare the facts are absolute.

I have met so many people who declare Jesus is all about facts, because to admit it is faith and perception, seems so weak and insecure, the fear must be avoided. Another group feel the salvation must be absolute, you are saved after grasping a few concepts of who Jesus is, because the idea that Jesus chooses and its a dynamic relationship is too insecure and fearful.

Now I am an evangelist and would argue Jesus and His gospel for His disciples and their life change to walk into a life which costs them their lives, founded on His resurrection, declares the resurrection happened. It is so conclusive, that until He rose, much of what Jesus taught about the heart and love did not make sense. After with the Holy Spirit, that which the world denies became real, the bond of brotherhood, the adoption of families, loving from the heart. God bless you

 

[rhomphaeam]

That is quite the statement... Fear is NOT the bottom line of chemical imbalances. WOW...

The statement you quoted doesn't say what you have expressed. Behavioural predications can be many things - and fear is the chief amongst them. So is anger - see Cain and his response when his sacrifice was refused. We are taking about behavioural meanings and not pathological chemistry giving rise to mental health issues. Fear isn't a mental health issue until it is a persistent condition and then it is called anxiety as a learned behaviour with psychosomatic elements. Persistent anxiety is a mental health issue. Fear isn't. Neither is anger.