Question about Daniel 9

[Stormcrow]

The question is when did the old covenant cease?

At the cross, with these words IT IS FINISHED!

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

Funny how the author of Hebrews, writing some 30+ years after the death of Christ on the cross and the institution of the New Covenant, still believed the Old Covenant was only “ready to disappear.â€

I wonder why he would've written that.

 

[JLB]

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

Funny how the author of Hebrews, writing some 30+ years after the death of Christ on the cross and the institution of the New Covenant, still believed the Old Covenant was only “ready to disappear.â€

I wonder why he would've written that.

It's the same way you believed that -that all things which are written may be fulfilled, Meant that all the scriptures in the old testament came to pass in 70 Ad, because you misinterpret what is written.



Hebrews 8:8-13


8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

The writer of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31, which The Lord speaks through Jeremiah about a coming New Covenant.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

At the moment, He, The Lord, said through Jeremiah "A New Covenant", it was right then that the old covenant became obsolete a was fading away until The Lord spoke of the initiation of The new Covenant when He said - For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The New Covenant was officially ratified and came into effect when Jesus shed His blood on the cross.

Just before He gave up His Spirit He said - It is finished. Marking the end of the old covenant!

Same Lord who spoke through Jeremiah and said :" I will make a "New Covenant" said It is finished, on the cross!

The moment the word's New Covenant were spoken out of Jeremiahs mouth is when the old covenant began fading until the New Covenant came into operation by the shedding of Jesus blood.

This is what the writer of Hebrews is teaching us when he says -
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

When He said "A new covenant", ay that moment He made the first obsolete!

Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

It vanished away on the cross! Not 70 AD!

JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

The writer of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31, which The Lord speaks through Jeremiah about a coming New Covenant.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

You wrote an awful lot in defense of your defenseless view just to be proven wrong by a single word:

Tense.

If the author of Hebrews - writing some 30 years after the cross - meant to quote Jeremiah to prove the Old Covenant was ended at the cross, why didn't he use past tense?

The Old Covenant was made obsolete by the cross but it was not ended at the cross! That is clear from the two different tenses used in the same verse, and this is consistent with Christ's words in Matthew 5!

Or how can it be that the Law (Old Covenant) is still in effect for you futurists given that you also believe heaven and earth have yet to pass away???

Which is it with you???

 

[JLB]

You wrote an awful lot in defense of your defenseless view just to be proven wrong by a single word:

Tense.

If the author of Hebrews - writing some 30 years after the cross - meant to quote Jeremiah to prove the Old Covenant was ended at the cross, why didn't he use past tense?

The Old Covenant was made obsolete by the cross but it was not ended at the cross! That is clear from the two different tenses used in the same verse, and this is consistent with Christ's words in Matthew 5!

Or how can it be that the Law (Old Covenant) is still in effect for you futurists given that you also believe heaven and earth have yet to pass away???

Which is it with you???

He is quoting Jeremiah as it reads -

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The writer of Hebrews doesn't add tense, he quotes Jeremiah as it reads.

Until he comments on what he just wrote -

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Has made is past tense!


You have snared yourself by the words of your mouth.

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

He is quoting Jeremiah as it reads -

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The writer of Hebrews doesn't add tense, he quotes Jeremiah as it reads.

Until he comments on what he just wrote -

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Has made is past tense!


You have snared yourself by the words of your mouth.

JLB

Hbr 8:13 - In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

The establishment of the new covenant was future to Jeremiah, but past to the author of Hebrews. The vanishing of the old covenant is clearly future to the author of Hebrews, as Jeremiah doesn't ever suggest that the old would vanish.

You be done snared by the scriptures.:eeeekkk

 

[Stormcrow]

Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

The establishment of the new covenant was future to Jeremiah, but past to the author of Hebrews. The vanishing of the old covenant is clearly future to the author of Hebrews, as Jeremiah doesn't ever suggest that the old would vanish.

Yeah. I guess he missed that part about "is ready to vanish away" as being future tense to the author of Hebrews.

But again, why is the Old Covenant (Law) "passed away" at the cross to these people when they also say heaven and earth haven't been destroyed yet?

Were heaven and earth destroyed at the cross, too???

 

[JLB]

Yeah. I guess he missed that part about "is ready to vanish away" as being future tense to the author of Hebrews.

But again, why is the Old Covenant (Law) "passed away" at the cross to these people when they also say heaven and earth haven't been destroyed yet?

Were heaven and earth destroyed at the cross, too???

The old Covenant passed away at the cross.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hbr 8:13 - In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

The establishment of the new covenant was future to Jeremiah, but past to the author of Hebrews. The vanishing of the old covenant is clearly future to the author of Hebrews, as Jeremiah doesn't ever suggest that the old would vanish.

You be done snared by the scriptures.:eeeekkk

The writer of the book of Hebrews states that The Lord says it is obsolete!

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

From the moment The Lord said a New Covenant, through Jeremiah, at that moment it was began growing old and vanishing away.

At the cross it was gone! It was replace by The new!


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

The writer of the book of Hebrews states that The Lord says it is obsolete!

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

From the moment The Lord said a New Covenant, through Jeremiah, at that moment it was began growing old and vanishing away.

At the cross it was gone! It was replace by The new!


JLB

The KJV says...

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It is ready to vanish, the Greek for this is...

G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

G854
ἀφανισμός
aphanismos
af-an-is-mos'
From G853; disappearance, that is, (figuratively) abrogation: - vanish away.


The Diaglott says...

Hebrews 8:13 By the to say new, he has declared old the first; that but becoming old and advancing in age, near disappearing.

Modern translations say it is waxing old, it did not disappear at the cross.

New International Version (©1984)
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

English Standard Version (©2001)
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

International Standard Version (©2008)
In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
In that he said, “New”, he has made the first old, and that which is outdated and old is near destruction.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

American King James Version
In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

American Standard Version
In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.

Darby Bible Translation
In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged is near disappearing.

English Revised Version
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Webster's Bible Translation
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away.

Weymouth New Testament
By using the words, "a new Covenant," He has made the first one obsolete; but whatever is decaying and showing signs of old age is not far from disappearing altogether.

World English Bible
In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

Young's Literal Translation
in the saying 'new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

No translation I am aware of says it was done away at the stake. The New Covenant will be established worldwide at Christ's return.

 

[Stormcrow]

The old Covenant passed away at the cross.

Your fundamental inability to comprehend something so simple should give anyone reading what you write serious pause. Seriously, is there anything Jesus said that you actually believe??? What part of "the law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away" is not perfectly clear???

 

[JLB]

Your fundamental inability to comprehend something so simple should give anyone reading what you write serious pause. Seriously, is there anything Jesus said that you actually believe??? What part of "the law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away" is not perfectly clear???

Oh let me guess.
Heaven and earth pass away in 70 ad

 

[reba]

Some times i feel like the old lady who lived in the shoe :help


NOT directed necessarily at the last poster.....

Play nice kids....

 

[John 8:32]

Your fundamental inability to comprehend something so simple should give anyone reading what you write serious pause. Seriously, is there anything Jesus said that you actually believe??? What part of "the law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away" is not perfectly clear???

We do not see eye to eye on some things, but on this, we are in total agreement. The law is still in full force, since all has not been fulfilled and the heavens and earth have not passed away.

 

[JLB]

We do not see eye to eye on some things, but on this, we are in total agreement. The law is still in full force, since all has not been fulfilled and the heavens and earth have not passed away.

Show me in my post where I said the Law has passed away

 

[John 8:32]

Show me in my post where I said the Law has passed away

I did not say that, I simply said that Stormcrow adn I do not agree on some topics, but that we agree on this one. I did not even have your posts in mind when I wrote that.

 

[Stormcrow]

JLB: Show me in my post where I said the Law has passed away

Sin: The question is when did the old covenant cease?

JLB: At the cross, with these words IT IS FINISHED!
very simple.

JLB: It vanished away on the cross! Not 70 AD!

JLB: The old Covenant passed away at the cross.

JLB: At the cross it was gone! It was replace by The new!

The Law (of Moses) is the Old Covenant!!!

 

[Stormcrow]

I did not say that, I simply said that Stormcrow adn I do not agree on some topics, but that we agree on this one. I did not even have your posts in mind when I wrote that.

We actually disagree but as I am typing this on my phone, I will have to lay out our differences later.

 

[Stormcrow]

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

Not everything was accomplished at the cross. That which remained was the "vengeance for the covenant" God had told Moses the people would suffer, not only for their disobedience, but for acting with "hostility" toward Him. (Was there any greater act of hostility by which the people acted against God than in crucifying His Son???)

'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. Leviticus 26:23-25 (NASB)

This is why the Law was left in place until the judgment that befell Jerusalem!

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near...because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:22 (NASB)

All things written were accomplished and fulfilled in the final judgment of Jerusalem!

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Matthew 24:34-35 (NASB)

"Heaven and earth" is a Jewish expression that conveys this idea of the Holy Land and its Holy City!

John compares and contrasts the "heaven and earth" destroyed in judgment with the "New Jerusalem" coming down out of heaven!

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2 (NASB)

The Old Covenant "heaven and earth" was violently and irrevocably replaced with the new. That which had been made obsolete finally disappeared. And it all happened in 70 AD.

 

[Stormcrow]

The New Covenant will be established worldwide at Christ's return.

The New Covenant was established at the cross. The Old Covenant - obsoleted by the New - remained in effect until Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[Stormcrow]

off topic