Question About Holy Communion

[theSeriousOne]

But what is that to you? Some thing they have wrong and other things they are wise about. I have no doubt that you can teach her something. I have no doubt that she can teach you some things. No one has all the answers. That is why we, as the body, need each other. Because no one has all the answers. Jesus said, I am the truth.

The Kingdom of God seems to be run compartmentalized, lol! Very much so in fact. After Jesus's resurection He was appearing to different people here and there, but no one had it all. They had to get together and compare notes!

Jesus was popping in and out all over the place! He was having fun with it! On the road to Emmaus, Jesus acted like He didn't know what had been happening!
Why are you men somber?
And they said know ye not the things that have transpired here recently? (the Crucifixion of Jesus!)
And Jesus is all, What things?! Like He didn't know, lol.

I find that hilarious and makes me feel good to know that Jesus has a great sense of humor.

But the Bible's message is plain- "Get out of Her my people!"

 

[D-D-W]

But the gospel is not the Covenant.

True. But it is the invitation to the New Covenant.

The New Covenant states that all are welcomed.
It is an unconditional covenant.
There are no conditions to join it - one must only want to be a part of it.

Wrong. One must repent of sins and agree to the terms. It is an opt-in covenant.

Unlike the Mosaic, for example, where the people had the condition that they had to obey.

The condition of joining the Mosaic covenant was being born into it. There were certain sins that would get you kicked out, calling it being "cut off" from the people.

The sign of the NC is the Eucharist...some believe it is Baptism, but baptism existed also before the NC and communion did not.

Other way around. Bread and wine has been a covenant meal since Abraham met Melchizedek. Immersion in water has been around since the time of Moses, over 400 years later.

This is the NC:
1. God will write the laws on the heart.
2. He will be their God and we will be His people.
3. All are invited and those in the NC will know God.
4. An internal spiritual transformation with a new possibility of obedience.
5. Sins will be forgiven.

Taken from Jeremiah 31:

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

If you notice it says this is specifically to Judah and Israel, the physical offspring of Jacob. The totality of that will only come when "all Israel shall be saved" as Paul writes in Romans 11. Earlier in that chapter it says when this happens, when physical Israel accepts their own Messiah, it will be "life from the dead."

 

[GodsGrace]

I contacted my pastor about this and this was the response. Underline added by me.

Great question. As Lutherans, we believe in the “Priesthood of all believers” which means that all baptized Christians are priests. As a priest, we all have the ability to preside over the Lord’s Supper and Baptisms.

In a time between pastors, a lay person could certainly deliver the Lord’s Supper. You could by all means get up and speak the Words of Institution and deliver the Lord’s Supper. This is the same for baptism as well. It is the word doing the work.

This is what you’d see laid out in the Book of Concord and in Scripture but some Lutheran denominations do restrict this. LCMS and ELCA have further parameters that limit it to ordained individuals, trying to hold control a bit more.

Thanks WIP.
I find it interesting that within the Lutheran denominations there is not 100% agreement.
I'm wondering if confession is practiced in the Lutheran faith.
Then would the same idea apply --- that all the laity are priests?
Not that I think one should confess to a lay person even IF confession does exist...
just to see if they're consistent in this belief. (that everyone is a priest - which the NT does state, of course).

 

[GodsGrace]

Acts 15:29 kjv
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30. So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

This was the message from authority in Jerusalem. (At a point in time).

To track and compare the whole issue is a personal issue.

To read a book someone wrote may or may not be true.

Romans 14:2 kjv
2. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


What we have is different beliefs and how we deal with ourselves and others.

We do respect the journey everyone is on.

Have I got it all together ? No. Do I see differences in the body of Christ? Yes.
do I see unity? Yes.

eddif

Acts and Romans, which you have posted, is speaking about eating the blood of animals.
I see this as a different issue.

 

[GodsGrace]

True. But it is the invitation to the New Covenant.

Wrong. One must repent of sins and agree to the terms. It is an opt-in covenant.

The condition of joining the Mosaic covenant was being born into it. There were certain sins that would get you kicked out, calling it being "cut off" from the people.

Other way around. Bread and wine has been a covenant meal since Abraham met Melchizedek. Immersion in water has been around since the time of Moses, over 400 years later.

Taken from Jeremiah 31:

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

If you notice it says this is specifically to Judah and Israel, the physical offspring of Jacob. The totality of that will only come when "all Israel shall be saved" as Paul writes in Romans 11. Earlier in that chapter it says when this happens, when physical Israel accepts their own Messiah, it will be "life from the dead."

I don't even understand why you posted verses 35-37.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[WIP]

Thanks WIP.
I find it interesting that within the Lutheran denominations there is not 100% agreement.
I'm wondering if confession is practiced in the Lutheran faith.
Then would the same idea apply --- that all the laity are priests?
Not that I think one should confess to a lay person even IF confession does exist...
just to see if they're consistent in this belief. (that everyone is a priest - which the NT does state, of course).

That's another interesting topic. I actually like the concept of confession as taught in the Catholic church although there is much about it that I disagree with. By taking the time to identify our sins on a regular bases, I believe it is helpful to be mindful of our transgressions and our need for our Savior.

I brought this up not too long ago in our adult Bible study. Some of the more mature members in our congregation shared that there was a time when our church encouraged or maybe even required confession to the pastor but today we confess during our worship service each week with a prescribed prayer and absolution. I do not know when or how that changed but it was long before I began worshipping in our Lutheran church.

The problem that I see with what we do now is that it can be too easy to just go through the motions with our blanket statement of confession without actually calling to mind our sins. Kind of out of sight out of mind if you know what I mean.

 

[D-D-W]

I don't even understand why you posted verses 35-37.

Because it is part of the overall context of what God was saying.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

On what, specifically?

 

[GodsGrace]

Because it is part of the overall context of what God was saying.

What was God saying?
We were discussing the New Covenant, I THINK.

On what, specifically?

We don't agree on the New Covenant.
I don't think we'll be able to agree and I don't see the importance of debating it...

 

[jaybo]

Yes He did. But it had to be metaphorical. To tell someone (Jewish men) to break the Law by ingesting literal blood was a sin. According to Lev 3.17, never was anyone to ingest blood.

Did Jesus sin?

No. Jesus never sinned.

 

[D-D-W]

No. Jesus never sinned.

Agreed.
Therefore He could NOT have been telling His disciples to ingest actual blood.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.
Therefore He could NOT have been telling His disciples to ingest actual blood.

Actual blood?

 

[gordon777]

That is not scriptural.

Heb 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

To obey and submit you have to listen to them.

It is scriptural to avoid satan and his ministers, at the end time now.

The wolves entered the flock:



Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.



On top of that situation beginning to occue 2000 years ago:


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


The final times are clear, to not go after, or believe in a word the many false prophet teachers state:


Remembering that the wolves entered he flock:



Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.



Who is going to believe a wolf denying the warnings of God against them, when the wolves say, hear us anyway..




Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[gordon777]

Since this is the forum for CHURCH HISTORY ,
I'd like to say that the early church did not believe that Jesus taught we are only to believe in Him.

Jesus Himself did not believe this, nor did Paul and those that came after him.

Apostle Paul taught: ( the early church is still the bible)


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[gordon777]

People do not need to take any of that personally, we will all be judged soon for all we said and did, and on top of that the aim is to overcome a wicked world, knowing the god of this world is satan, who comes as an angel of light, so why would such message of warning be so unpopular, instead of being useful, as it was originally given for. ( is it not in anyon3es agreement at all to trust in God only, in THIS TIME ESPECIALLY.)

Is it not apparent to anyone that satan and his ministers want us to trust them, as they seem as ministers of righteousness, yet to not lose our soul is to OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE ? ( so we do need to stop trusting those who are trying to deceive us this very way .)



Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.



1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apostle Paul taught: ( the early church is still the bible)


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

I don't know what this has to do with my post.

 

[GodsGrace]

People do not need to take any of that personally, we will all be judged soon for all we said and did, and on top of that the aim is to overcome a wicked world, knowing the god of this world is satan, who comes as an angel of light, so why would such message of warning be so unpopular, instead of being useful, as it was originally given for. ( is it not in anyon3es agreement at all to trust in God only, in THIS TIME ESPECIALLY.)

Is it not apparent to anyone that satan and his ministers want us to trust them, as they seem as ministers of righteousness, yet to not lose our soul is to OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE ? ( so we do need to stop trusting those who are trying to deceive us this very way .)



Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.



1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

You sure do think a lot about satan.
I wonder how healthy this is.
Paul said to keep our eyes on things of above.

 

[gordon777]

You sure do think a lot about satan.
I wonder how healthy this is.
Paul said to keep our eyes on things of above.

things above..

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[gordon777]

Our aim is to overcome this wicked world and the wicked one, how do you do that by not being aware of our adversary.


1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

things above..

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Do you think you fight an evil by thinking about it all the time?

 

[GodsGrace]

Our aim is to overcome this wicked world and the wicked one, how do you do that by not being aware of our adversary.


1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Bring aware and being obsessed are different.

Think of God instead . Keep HIM in your mind.