Questions about the bible.

[Curious]

I have just finished reading the bible from Genesis to revelation (it was quite enjoyable, though reading through the genealogies was a bit of a mission) and have loads of questions.
For starters, to become a Christian do I need to believe that that the creation story in genesis actually happened as recorded in Genesis?

 

[WIP]

Hope this wasn't directed at me

Just directed to everyone. I saw a lot of posts that were deviating from the OP's questions.

 

[humble soul]

Just directed to everyone. I saw a lot of posts that were deviating from the OP's questions.

I was helping him when no one else was responding. He said he appreciated my help.

 

[Mosheli]

I don't see why the Jonah story can't be literally true. There are known other examples cases of people being swallowed/saved from sharks/fish/whales. The words are 'Dag Gadol' "great fish".

I think that to be consistent with the worldview and "the Law" one would/should believe the creation story in Genesis 1-2. But there are many details which people have different views on which may not necessarily be salvation issues. One does have to believe in God/Creator and Jesus. There are people in world & history who are saved by such belief without knowing all the details of the bible. It says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth then you are saved. And "all those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". It also says we have to believe God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I don't think the literary device is very likely. A peoples worldview/history must be as true as possible. Many of the things/events in Genesis/bible have confirming matches in the mythologies of many other nations all around the world, eg the Flood is an almost universal story, and alot of the stories even have similar small details like the sending out of the birds etc which can only be due to common origin. I don't see that/why the Genesis creation story is so hard to believe.

As to science seeming to have right info on the age of the Earth etc, when one really studies all the "science" one finds that their evidences and theories are not so reliable as asserted. Alot of their dating methods are proven unreliable. There are many missing links, there are out of place artifacts and reversals, there are shelved artifacts which are shelved because they don't fit their scheme.

There are definite cases of allegory/figurative/symbolic in the bible. But I wouldn't agree that things like Jonah in the fish are allegorical not literal.

Talking serpent in Genesis (or Balaam's donkey later on) is not necessarily impossible. The word in Hebrew is Nahash which can mean either "snake/serpent", "shining", "whisperer/hisser", "he who knows secrets/copper", "magus/enchanter/practicer of divination". Revelation/Apocalypse calls Satan/Devil the serpent/dragon. It is possible for demons to possess humans/animals. There have been finds of "Dinosaur Man". The story of the serpent is found in other nations mythologies, sometimes with a slightly different similar animal, eg "A great seabird seduces the 1st woman Lalo-honua in Polynesian" (though this one possibly could be due to missionary influence).

As to the issue of John saying Jesus is God but the other 3 synoptic gospels allegedly don't, I'm not so sure that the other 3 gospels don't say or imply but I'd have to look up my notes etc to confirm that. Even without looking one comes to mind where it says "son of the most high god". And even if they don't, it is well known that John was a more mystical writer. All 4 gospels are written by different ypes of persons to different audiences with different purposes (eg "Matthew/Levi to Jews, Mark/Peter to Romans (Peter is more impulsive person), Luke/Paul to Greeks, John to World/Greeks").

 

[humble soul]

don't think the literary device is very likely. A

You might need to read up some Catholic theologians if interested.

 

[Curious]

I have heard New Zealand is rather secular. I find that strange as your National Anthem is rather hymn-like. We have tried to move there and was advised, when looking for work, not to mention Jesus as someone who was a hero to my wife as she applied for a job. I thought that was strange as well.

Hi. I can't see people having an issue with you acknowledging yourself as a Christian, we are a secular society, but it is illegal to persecute or discriminate against people for their religious beliefs, sexual identity, or political persuasion.

 

[Curious]

I don't see why the Jonah story can't be literally true. There are known other examples cases of people being swallowed/saved from sharks/fish/whales. The words are 'Dag Gadol' "great fish".

I think that to be consistent with the worldview and "the Law" one would/should believe the creation story in Genesis 1-2. But there are many details which people have different views on which may not necessarily be salvation issues. One does have to believe in God/Creator and Jesus. There are people in world & history who are saved by such belief without knowing all the details of the bible. It says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth then you are saved. And "all those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". It also says we have to believe God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

I don't think the literary device is very likely. A peoples worldview/history must be as true as possible. Many of the things/events in Genesis/bible have confirming matches in the mythologies of many other nations all around the world, eg the Flood is an almost universal story, and alot of the stories even have similar small details like the sending out of the birds etc which can only be due to common origin. I don't see that/why the Genesis creation story is so hard to believe.

As to science seeming to have right info on the age of the Earth etc, when one really studies all the "science" one finds that their evidences and theories are not so reliable as asserted. Alot of their dating methods are proven unreliable. There are many missing links, there are out of place artifacts and reversals, there are shelved artifacts which are shelved because they don't fit their scheme.

There are definite cases of allegory/figurative/symbolic in the bible. But I wouldn't agree that things like Jonah in the fish are allegorical not literal.

Talking serpent in Genesis (or Balaam's donkey later on) is not necessarily impossible. The word in Hebrew is Nahash which can mean either "snake/serpent", "shining", "whisperer/hisser", "he who knows secrets/copper", "magus/enchanter/practicer of divination". Revelation/Apocalypse calls Satan/Devil the serpent/dragon. It is possible for demons to possess humans/animals. There have been finds of "Dinosaur Man". The story of the serpent is found in other nations mythologies, sometimes with a slightly different similar animal, eg "A great seabird seduces the 1st woman Lalo-honua in Polynesian" (though this one possibly could be due to missionary influence).

As to the issue of John saying Jesus is God but the other 3 synoptic gospels allegedly don't, I'm not so sure that the other 3 gospels don't say or imply but I'd have to look up my notes etc to confirm that. Even without looking one comes to mind where it says "son of the most high god". And even if they don't, it is well known that John was a more mystical writer. All 4 gospels are written by different ypes of persons to different audiences with different purposes (eg "Matthew/Levi to Jews, Mark/Peter to Romans (Peter is more impulsive person), Luke/Paul to Greeks, John to World/Greeks").

Thankyou Mosheli for your detailed reply. If I have understood you correctly, you believe in a worldwide flood that destroyed all life on the planet except for some aquatic species and that they all managed to fit on the wooden structure that Noah built. Other Christians see this as allegorical, does this in any way affect relationships between Christians? and if so does this how do you reconcile your differences? I'm not 100% certain what you mean by the age of the earth? I am not a scientist but does this mean that you don't agree with the current estimate of 4.5 billion years (I had to look that up). You don't seem to be a fan of the scientific method, are there many Christians who have a similar view? I am very curious as to what the shelved artifacts are, where would I find information on these? And do many Christians believe that Jonah really was swallowed by a great fish and that Ballam's donkey actually spoke? Thanks again for your reply.

 

[Curious]

You might need to read up some Catholic theologians if interested.

You would make a great diplomat, the planet needs more people like you.

 

[Curious]

I’ve never heard of the fellow. But as you’ve probably guessed, we support the creation account. Answers in Genesis does a good job, in my opinion, of making scientific since supporting a young earth.

Thanks stove bolts, I will look up answers in Genesis

 

[daninthelionsden]

Hi. I can't see people having an issue with you acknowledging yourself as a Christian, we are a secular society, but it is illegal to persecute or discriminate against people for their religious beliefs, sexual identity, or political persuasion.

That is very good to hear. Do you think a Christian book I wrote that has New Zealand as it's back story would do well there?

 

[Curious]

That is very good to hear. Do you think a Christian book I wrote that has New Zealand as it's back story would do well there?

I'm sure it would. 37% of New Zealanders identify as Christian.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I'm sure it would. 37% of New Zealanders identify as Christian.

That's cool. I wrote a Christian based Christmas fantasy adventure sort of along the lines of C.S. Lewis' The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe and kind of like The Polar Express mixed in to one. I wanted to have a Christian targeted audience, but I think it could make a go at general readers as well.

 

[Curious]

I've always enjoyed C.S Lewis I even read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe to my boys when they were kids. So yes, your book may well be well received by a variety of folk.

 

[Serving Zion]

I have just finished reading the bible from Genesis to revelation (it was quite enjoyable, though reading through the genealogies was a bit of a mission) and have loads of questions.
For starters, to become a Christian do I need to believe that that the creation story in genesis actually happened as recorded in Genesis?

I don't think it's really a key issue for becoming Christian, unless it is a particular hurdle in any given case. There are Christians who believe it is a literal account of creation and there are those who believe it is a poetic allegory for spiritual value. It seems to be flexible enough to not be a means for disqualification of the faith, and the real question for what would make you Christian is found in your position on whether Jesus is who He has claimed to be and whether you are able to find agreement with the things He has taught and the teachings of Christianity in general. To the extent that Genesis applies in that context, there's a universal value whether it is read as spiritual or literal: that God made the world to be paradise in the first place, and it is through the one man ("Adam") that sin came to be in the world. So the question about Christianity is more about realising that sin is the thing that humans have to contend against in order to sustain their normal (intended) function in the world. What happens when sin comes to get us to do it's works is that the human is no longer being the creature that God has intended him to be, and the result is that hell comes to have power to wreak havoc and destruction upon the earth through the deceitful and evil things that people do when they are not doing what God has intended the humans to do.

When you realise that God has designed the world to be good and wholesome without sin and that the things we are doing that are sinful are causing His creation to groan in misery, that is what defines whether we will come to turn away from the sinful things that we are doing and to live according to the way of the truth that Jesus has taught us. That's called "repentance" and it means that one has "turned back to the former way".

 

[Mosheli]

Thankyou Mosheli for your detailed reply. If I have understood you correctly, you believe in a worldwide flood that destroyed all life on the planet except for some aquatic species and that they all managed to fit on the wooden structure that Noah built. Other Christians see this as allegorical, does this in any way affect relationships between Christians? and if so does this how do you reconcile your differences? I'm not 100% certain what you mean by the age of the earth? I am not a scientist but does this mean that you don't agree with the current estimate of 4.5 billion years (I had to look that up). You don't seem to be a fan of the scientific method, are there many Christians who have a similar view? I am very curious as to what the shelved artifacts are, where would I find information on these? And do many Christians believe that Jonah really was swallowed by a great fish and that Ballam's donkey actually spoke? Thanks again for your reply.

There is not necessarily any problem with fitting 2 (unclean) or 7 (clean) of each of all the animals on the ark. As you might know, most animals are pretty small. Larger animals could be taken as babies or eggs. Biblical "kinds" are not necessarily species but cross-fertile or viable taxa which is only barred by difference in order. And according to evolutionism the animal species probably have been more diversified since the flood than they were before the flood.
It is not certain that the Ark was wooden, it is not known for sure what "gopher wood" was/is.
I don't really know whether the difference between believers who think the flood was literal and believers or alleged believers who think it was allegorical is any much of an issue or not. It doesn't seem to be a point of major tension between different believers. I would assume most believers would believe there was a flood rather than that there wasn't one, though some may think it was local/regional not worldwide. And anyway I find it hard to see how the Flood story can be "allegorical". We try to resolve differences by going to the source text (bible) and original language and seeing which scenario the verses words supports, and by finding historical evidence corroboration.

The earth age bit was relating to your or someone else's reply mentioning about scientific age of the earth etc (I couldn't quote all the bits of the OP and replies that I commented on). No I don't believe the Earth is "4.5 billion" years old because the dating methods etc are all unreliable and there are counter evidences like the dust on the moon. They can't prove it, they were not there then. Such massive dates and large gaps/periods between the dates also stretch belief.

I am not "not a fan of" all science, I just don't agree that certain dating methods and evolutionary/geological theories etc are as reliable as asserted. I don't have statistics on all christians but my impression is most christians like most other people are lead to have a lot of faith in "science" and that this is a problem because it has lead to alot of people being lead to doubt the truth of the biblical account. Though at the same time there also seem to be quite alot of believers who do have strong belief in the bible and who don't believe the claims of the evolutionists etc.

I have no statistics of how many "christians" or messianics do or don't believe in Jonah being swallowed by a great fish. But I would assume that most are probably likely to believe it was a true literal event not an allegorical literary device. And I really don't even see why Jonah's fish is so hard to believe.

Shelved artifacts: Look up "out of place artifacts" or "ooparts", and "Forbidden Archaeology" by Cremo & Thompson (traces of humans and civilisation in most periods of the geological time scale), and some other sources. Humans found underneath dinosaur bones in South America. Human and dinosaur footprints in same bed in Genesis Flood by Whitcombe & Morris. There are modern humans found that date older then the fossil men. I listed a few shelved artifacts at https://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/2015/07/11/answer-to-yec-attackers/ but it would take some time and effort to collate a more comprehensive list.

What unites all true believers is believing in the God & Jesus of the bible and "all pass through same Red Sea and same cloud" like they did in the exodus.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

I have just finished reading the bible from Genesis to revelation (it was quite enjoyable, though reading through the genealogies was a bit of a mission) and have loads of questions.
For starters, to become a Christian do I need to believe that that the creation story in genesis actually happened as recorded in Genesis?

If it was the NIV version, you'll need to start over. ?? Just kidding. Serving Zion

 

[Butch5]

I have just finished reading the bible from Genesis to revelation (it was quite enjoyable, though reading through the genealogies was a bit of a mission) and have loads of questions.
For starters, to become a Christian do I need to believe that that the creation story in genesis actually happened as recorded in Genesis?

Hi Curious,

You're going to get all kinds of answers. Many without and real Scriptural backing. What is required to become a Chridtians is to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the promised redeemer of Isrsel, and to follow Him.

Regardig your question about Genesis and the creation account, there is a lot of info available. It seems you've looked at the "science" and are leaning a certain way.

Let me say up front that I believe the account is literal. I have several reasons for that. One is that the first Christians believed it was literal. They were taught by Jesus and the apostles.

I'd also like to address "the scince". When you say science is assume you're referring to secular science, since science from a Christian perspective agrees with a literal interpretation of the creation account.

What we have to consider here are our preconceptions. Preconceptions the beliefs we bring to any evidence. We use these preconceptions to evaluate the evidence. Let me give you an example. Two scientists look at the same fossil. One concludes that it has resulted from evolutionary processes, the other concludes it's resulted from the Genesis flood that God brought on the world. It's the same evidence yet we have two different conclusions, why? Preconceptions. One scientist believes God created the world, the other believes it's the result of random chance. So, you see, the same evidence is interpreted differently based on what one believes.

I would encourage you, if this is something.you feel strongly about, to look at how Christian scientists evaluate the evidence and compare the two. You can find some good answers at answersingensis.com

 

[Serving Zion]

If it was the NIV version, you'll need to start over. ?? Just kidding.

Curious , he's referring to an error in the NIV that we discovered together yesterday: https://christianforums.net/threads/what-do-you-suppose-is-the-mark-of-the-beast.85453/post-1615083

Serving Zion

If the truth is to be known, none of the English translations can convey what is being said through the original. Do you know what the serpent is? It is nachash: נָחָשׁ

Hebrew > English Contemporary Dictionary Translation:

מילון מורפיקס | נחש באנגלית | פירוש נחש בעברית

נחש באנגלית- תרגום לאנגלית של המילה נחש על ידי אתר מורפיקס, מילון עברי אנגלי ואנגלי עברי חינמי המוביל ברשת, הכולל: תרגום, הקראת מילים, משפטי דוגמה, ניקוד בעברית, ניתוח הטיות בעברית ובאנגלית ועוד

www.morfix.co.il

By reading the pictographic expressions of the letters, we can see that the nachash as the serpent spells the "seed" of its "territory" and it "consumes".

נָ Nun (seed)
חָ Chet (wall of the tent)
שׁ Shin (teeth)

When the nachash was talking to Eve, it was saying "God wants you to not have the fruit because then you will be like he is! .. discerning (knowing/investigating/reasoning) good and evil!" (Genesis 3:4-5). That is speaking of the seed of doubt about God's true intention that when it took hold in Eve, set up the home for the serpent to begin residing within her and to consume her (eg: Romans 6:12).

Jesus says in John 8:44 that the devil is the father of lies, who was a murderer from the beginning and in John 10:10 that the thief is only wanting to steal, kill and destroy. That's what we recognise the nachash to be: smarter than any beast that God had made, that wanting also to overcome Eve, has bitten Eve with his seed of deceit, taking her captive and then consuming her.

The Hebrew language is so rich with meaning that simply cannot be conveyed through the English language. That's why the problems exist in the reading of the English translations that make it seem like a fairy tale rather than the deep knowledge of the human relationship with God and the creation.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I've always enjoyed C.S Lewis I even read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe to my boys when they were kids. So yes, your book may well be well received by a variety of folk.

Two books of Lewis' I would recommend as you inquire about Christ, is Mere Christianity and (my favorite) The Great Divorce. I endured the first chapter of The Great Divorce, but the rest of the book was well worth the perseverance.
I also recommend Akiane Kramerick's paintings, poems and thoughts. She painted a famous picture of Jesus. I had a dream I saw the Lord before I even saw her painting. Same guy.
I pray the Lord reveal Himself to you and yours. The journey is well worth it.

 

[Curious]

Two books of Lewis' I would recommend as you inquire about Christ, is Mere Christianity and (my favorite) The Great Divorce. I endured the first chapter of The Great Divorce, but the rest of the book was well worth the perseverance.
I also recommend Akiane Kramerick's paintings, poems and thoughts. She painted a famous picture of Jesus. I had a dream I saw the Lord before I even saw her painting. Same guy.
I pray the Lord reveal Himself to you and yours. The journey is well worth it.

Thanks daninthelionsden, I guess you would classify me a person who does not know if there is a god or god's. When reading through the New Testament I did ask God the Father of Christ to confirm that this was indeed his book, and to be honest, nothing happened. I have no issues with Christians (though I did see some fringe stuff on the net such as the Westboro baptist church that made my skin crawl), but I have not met anyone on this forum like that, thank goodness. When I was at school (many years ago) I struck up a good friendship with guy from a Christian home. I will not name him just in case someone from his family reads this. He was probably one of the kindest people I have ever known. I was new to the school and was subject to a bit of bullying and he took me under his wing and looked out for me. Just after he turned sixteen he changed from a happy, outgoing guy to a very withdrawn, unhappy young man. We were sitting having lunch one day and I asked him what was wrong. He told me that he believed there was something seriously wrong with him and that God must hate him. I didn't believe in God, but reassured him that if God did exist he couldn't help but love him. He just clammed up after that and wouldn't answer any more questions. About a month later we were out camping, and just after we had a meal he burst into tears. I didn't know what to do, so just put my hand on his shoulder. He told me that there was something wrong with him as no matter how hard he tried he just wasn't attracted to girls. I told him not to worry, that it would just be a matter of time. It was very embarrassing for both of us, He then told me that he was physically attracted to boys of his own age, and no matter how hard he tried to fight it, it just wouldn't go away. I was a bit shocked, and didn't know what to say. He then took his Bible out and showed me some passages that stated God hated homosexuals. I told him just to ignore those bits, he said he loved God and didn't want to displease him and was terrified of going to hell. He had been praying and fasting, pleading with God to change him. I wish I had been more supportive, I just didn't know what to do and just carried on as if nothing had happened. He seemed to come right and we spent the rest of the weekend shooting rabbits and catching fish. Two weeks later his parents found him hanging in their garden shed. I will never forget him, and could never bring myself to support the book that killed him.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Thanks daninthelionsden, I guess you would classify me a person who does not know if there is a god nor god's. When reading through the New Testament I did ask God to confirm that this was indeed his book, and to be honest, nothing happened. I have no issues with Christians (though I did see some fringe stuff such as Westboro bapt

Keep seeking and keep knocking and you will find Him.