questions for those who quit believing

[Milk-Drops]

There's a great "debate" between Dawkins and Lennox. If I could find it I'll post the link.
You might have seen it.

Yeah I'm familiar. In my opinion Dawkins was interesting like 15 to 10 years ago. Both him and Hitchens were very influential to Atheist reddit and YouTube. I think left/Breadtube has more of an influence on modern Atheist youtube.

 

[GodsGrace]

We can't know this.
Maybe nothing.
Maybe another human.

 

[Milk-Drops]

My interest is in how exChristians feel when they become atheists.
I would find it really strange not having the prayer option. Scary in fact.
What becomes their anchor? Their own mind? Science? No thanks.

For me, I became very community driven like I was when I was a Christian. I found friends and groups that I felt understood me and we would share advice and information. Many Atheists I know only broke away from religion when they could find a group/ adopted family for support.

 

[Milk-Drops]

We can't know this.
Maybe nothing.
Maybe another human.

Those are questions older than civilization.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah I'm familiar. In my opinion Dawkins was interesting like 15 to 10 years ago. Both him and Hitchens were very influential to Atheist reddit and YouTube. I think left/Breadtube has more of an influence on modern Atheist youtube.

I never heard of it..
Breadtube.com?

10 years ago I was preparing lessons for young kids to teach them our faith...no youtube at that time.

Thanks for mentioning it.

Read The God Dillusion.
Lennox is a brain.
They had a good conversation/debate.
I think it was in the British Museum.

The atheists I know personally that left Christianity did so because they were mad at God.

 

[GodsGrace]

For me, I became very community driven like I was when I was a Christian. I found friends and groups that I felt understood me and we would share advice and information. Many Atheists I know only broke away from religion when they could find a group/ adopted family for support.

Are you a former Christian?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Are you a former Christian?

Yep, I attended youth group regularly. Got Saved when I was 12. Read the Bible, thought I had a relationship. Wanted to become a pastor. Over several years I started falling away for several reasons. Eventually I had to admit I didn't believe anymore and walked away.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I never heard of it..
Breadtube.com?

10 years ago I was preparing lessons for young kids to teach them our faith...no youtube at that time.

Thanks for mentioning it.

Read The God Dillusion.
Lennox is a brain.
They had a good conversation/debate.
I think it was in the British Museum.

The atheists I know personally that left Christianity did so because they were mad at God.

Oh, breadtube is a slang term for a bunch of left leaning to outright leftist youtube channels and creators. Its a refrence to the book "The Conquest of Bread" by Kerpotkin. Many of the Atheist youtbers split off into breadtube and "Skeptic/anti sjw" youtube. It's mostly nerd stuff.:tongue

As for Atheists being Angry at God, I have met people that are angry and use God as a proxy for their frustrations. I think that is were the "angry Atheist" meme comes from. Those types of people Tend to be very loud and very visable.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep, I attended youth group regularly. Got Saved when I was 12. Read the Bible, thought I had a relationship. Wanted to become a pastor. Over several years I started falling away for several reasons. Eventually I had to admit I didn't believe anymore and walked away.

Is your name Bart Ehrmann?!

I think the OT could present many problems unless we come to some understanding about it that we could accept.

How we hang on to every word in the bible could become problematic.

Christianity is very simple and very complicated simultaneously.

Where are You when I hear that someone that falls away was never saved??

Of course we could fall away.

 

[Christ_empowered]

i think...socially, this is called 'secularization.' one 19th century German sociologist termed it 'disenchantment of the world,' basically...society, as a whole, looks to science and rational explanations, not...religion, priests, witchcraft, what have you. its interesting...i mean, in a sad way, as a Christian...

even in places where the numbers of Christians is growing, secularization holds true. get Christians in just about any nation, anywhere, to take a survey on core beliefs...

surprisingly -few- line up with Christianity 101. Jesus speaks of this, of course, how 'the love of many shall grow cold' and on the flip side, how people who were big time in religion will cry out to Him at judgment day, and He will say 'depart from me, ye workers of iniquity! I never knew you!" and so...

I did read -one- piece of good news...with Christianity, more so than other major faiths, social scientists have come to the conclusion that there are, in fact, true believers. lol. how's that for good news? but seriously...it lines up with the great apostasy, the great falling away, the great deception, and the idea of a last days remnant. i think it also fits nicely with the understanding of Christianity as a personal, developing relationship with Jesus, and also with the idea of the 'visible church' vs the 'invisible church.'

not to say that those who 'fall away' were not truly converted. a true, dyed in the wool calvinist might very well argue such...I'm not so sure. just to say that 'the personal is political' (paraphrase of 60s slogan, lol), and therefore its not just individual Christians, here and there, falling away...

its the way the world is moving, changing. i dunno. i never 'got' church. never fit in, too old (25) when I was indoctrinated for it to really 'stick,' then I had my so-called "spiritual awakening" (shrink's term, not mine) when I believe Jesus gave me sense enough to call out for forgiveness, and...

-sigh- i still don't -do church- , not sure i can deal with church. religion, in general, is a social institution. nothing wrong with that...but I don't think social institutions can genuinely save anyone, anywhere. Jesus can and does.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, breadtube is a slang term for a bunch of left leaning to outright leftist youtube channels and creators. Its a refrence to the book "The Conquest of Bread" by Kerpotkin. Many of the Atheist youtbers split off into breadtube and "Skeptic/anti sjw" youtube. It's mostly nerd stuff.:tongue

As for Atheists being Angry at God, I have met people that are angry and use God as a proxy for their frustrations. I think that is were the "angry Atheist" meme comes from. Those types of people Tend to be very loud and very visable.

That's for sure!
All I hear is Why did God do this to me,
Or why didn't He plan something different...
My husband asks this type question.
Seems like God just made too many mistakes.

And the problem of evil,,,
That's a biggie.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Is your name Bart Ehrmann?!

I think the OT could present many problems unless we come to some understanding about it that we could accept.

How we hang on to every word in the bible could become problematic.

Christianity is very simple and very complicated simultaneously.

Where are You when I hear that someone that falls away was never saved??

Of course we could fall away.

Nah, sorry to disappoint ya. Just some guy from indiana.

For me it wasn't necessarily the Old Testament. I had read Genesis, Exodus, etc before and nothing really surprised me or shook. My problems came more from learning about other religions, scientific discoveries. Learning about how logic works in philosophy and Math. Etc. Plus I had been deeply closeted since puberty. That went well. Mix that with politics and eventually I had to step back and figure out exactly what I believed.


I don't hold to the idea that someone can't fall away. I think anyone who has their personal world understanding flipped upside down can fall away. I see it like any core belief, as long as it functions, there is no reason to doubt.

 

[GodsGrace]

i think...socially, this is called 'secularization.' one 19th century German sociologist termed it 'disenchantment of the world,' basically...society, as a whole, looks to science and rational explanations, not...religion, priests, witchcraft, what have you. its interesting...i mean, in a sad way, as a Christian...

even in places where the numbers of Christians is growing, secularization holds true. get Christians in just about any nation, anywhere, to take a survey on core beliefs...

surprisingly -few- line up with Christianity 101. Jesus speaks of this, of course, how 'the love of many shall grow cold' and on the flip side, how people who were big time in religion will cry out to Him at judgment day, and He will say 'depart from me, ye workers of iniquity! I never knew you!" and so...

I did read -one- piece of good news...with Christianity, more so than other major faiths, social scientists have come to the conclusion that there are, in fact, true believers. lol. how's that for good news? but seriously...it lines up with the great apostasy, the great falling away, the great deception, and the idea of a last days remnant. i think it also fits nicely with the understanding of Christianity as a personal, developing relationship with Jesus, and also with the idea of the 'visible church' vs the 'invisible church.'

not to say that those who 'fall away' were not truly converted. a true, dyed in the wool calvinist might very well argue such...I'm not so sure. just to say that 'the personal is political' (paraphrase of 60s slogan, lol), and therefore its not just individual Christians, here and there, falling away...

its the way the world is moving, changing. i dunno. i never 'got' church. never fit in, too old (25) when I was indoctrinated for it to really 'stick,' then I had my so-called "spiritual awakening" (shrink's term, not mine) when I believe Jesus gave me sense enough to call out for forgiveness, and...

-sigh- i still don't -do church- , not sure i can deal with church. religion, in general, is a social institution. nothing wrong with that...but I don't think social institutions can genuinely save anyone, anywhere. Jesus can and does.

Church is good for interacting with others that believe as you do,,,,fellowship.
I enjoy it if only to hear the Word of God.
I haven't gone in many months and I do miss it.

I can understand why you may not enjoy it.
Then again,,,maybe you'd be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Christ_empowered]

the (sometimes extreme) conservatism of much of the established church in the us is a problem, too. i think my former Pentecostal friend quit talking to me because...

-sigh- I'm a Christian 1st and foremost, but I lean what most would call 'left,' maybe with some socialist elements in my thinking, and...

-sigh- it isn't just the beliefs, either. much of the established church is authoritarian, rather rigid. im not some mega left wing radical, but i was raised by well educated hippies, never did well with authoritarian institutions, and...yeah. i think that is part of why she quit talking to me, because...-sigh- ... in her world Christian=GOP=authoritarian. in my world, Christian=love Jesus=love mercy and God's justice. something like that, anyway.

i dunno. by and large, churches are made up of...church people...and I never was well liked by church people, before or after conversion. now? left leaning, antipsychiatry leaning, anti-authoritarian...

and then there are the churches. lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nah, sorry to disappoint ya. Just some guy from indiana.

For me it wasn't necessarily the Old Testament. I had read Genesis, Exodus, etc before and nothing really surprised me or shook. My problems came more from learning about other religions, scientific discoveries. Learning about how logic works in philosophy and Math. Etc. Plus I had been deeply closeted since puberty. That went well. Mix that with politics and eventually I had to step back and figure out exactly what I believed.


I don't hold to the idea that someone can't fall away. I think anyone who has their personal world understanding flipped upside down can fall away. I see it like any core belief, as long as it functions, there is no reason to doubt.

Yeah...
Everything that gave you doubt does have to be handled in order to believe.

I don't understand about the politics,,but they're everywhere.

Math seems to be innate in the universe...how did it get there?

I'm not trying to reconvert you, although I wish you would...

But how do you explain the universe around you?
How did it come into existence if not by God?

 

[GodsGrace]

the (sometimes extreme) conservatism of much of the established church in the us is a problem, too. i think my former Pentecostal friend quit talking to me because...

-sigh- I'm a Christian 1st and foremost, but I lean what most would call 'left,' maybe with some socialist elements in my thinking, and...

-sigh- it isn't just the beliefs, either. much of the established church is authoritarian, rather rigid. im not some mega left wing radical, but i was raised by well educated hippies, never did well with authoritarian institutions, and...yeah. i think that is part of why she quit talking to me, because...-sigh- ... in her world Christian=GOP=authoritarian. in my world, Christian=love Jesus=love mercy and God's justice. something like that, anyway.

i dunno. by and large, churches are made up of...church people...and I never was well liked by church people, before or after conversion. now? left leaning, antipsychiatry leaning, anti-authoritarian...

and then there are the churches. lol.

Right.
Just as I thought.
You're right about the authoritarian part.
These pastors/priests act like they own you.
Not so much in the CC, believe it or not.

 

[Randy]

Your point is a common belief.
This is not the theology forum and I won't get into this on this thread, however I do want to say that the NT is full of verses that show a person has to will to remain saved.
IOW one could have believed in the past but has now lost his faith.

But one could not unknow the witness of the Spirit. Hence those who leave and no longer believe have never known the Lord.

1 John
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[humble soul]

For me, I became very community driven like I was when I was a Christian. I found friends and groups that I felt understood me and we would share advice and information. Many Atheists I know only broke away from religion when they could find a group/ adopted family for support.

Ok that's good I guess. I probably need to be more community minded, Christian or not .
My problem for you as I see it is, the opinion of the group takes on too much significance. If the group reject you, who else is there to turn to? Move on to another group?
I tend to be selfish and individualistic which doesn't suit group participation. But I admit I need to bow to some community thinking. That's democracy.

 

[humble soul]

But one could not unknow the witness of the Spirit. Hence those who leave and no longer believe have never known the Lord.

I can't agree with that. It might be true in some cases.
If you are right, then I suspect a huge majority of current Christians don't know the Lord. But they say they do. Their faith is superficial or not real. They are talking to themselves rather than praying. They have created a God in their head. One which is fictional.

 

[Randy]

I can't agree with that. It might be true in some cases.
If you are right, then I suspect a huge majority of current Christians don't know the Lord. But they say they do. Their faith is superficial or not real. They are talking to themselves rather than praying. They have created a God in their head. One which is fictional.

That was Gods solution. He would make a new covenant with the people that He would write on the hearts of the people that all would know Him.

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Christ in us. A new creation.

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.