Questions for those who think the RCC is the Whore.

Just a few questions for those who think the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

Who is the Scarlet Beast?
Who are the 7 kings?
Who are the 10 horns?

More questions will follow depending on answers.
Repost because of site issues.

 

[Davos]

I agree when it is fully fulfilled, it will be obvious.

Perhaps.

When the Messiah came it should have been obvious because the 70 weeks had expired and they were looking for him but didn't recognise him.
Joseph Mede, died 1633, wrote that the Messiah came when they expected him but didn't recognise him because they were expecting a Messiah of their own imagination. Likewise the Antichrist came when they expected him, but they didn't recognise him as they were looking for an Antichrist of their own imagination.

 

[daninthelionsden]

If the bride is the true church, the saints of God , the harlot ust be a false Church.

If the Bride is the Church spread across many denominations, isn't the harlot the same in that the Spiritual Whore is spread across denominations?

 

[miamited]

Hi for_his_glory

that controls world wide economics, political, military, educational, environmental

I'm just curious 'where' you found those quotes from the Scriptures?

Yes, many churches have played the harlot like the church of Pergamum we read about in Rev 2:12-17.

Yes, but...

Jesus doesn't seem to speak with the same condemnation for the church at Pergamum as he does of the great harlot who's fornications and abominations have been committed with the kings of the earth. I really don't see that Jesus' words concerning the church at Pergamum, or any of the other churches, has any bearing on his words against the great whore Babylon. The Scriptures give a fairly compelling list of evidences by which this great harlot will be known. It ain't the church at Pergamum.

I'm just trying to define some terms and clear up some things that I think may be more, imagining of what it's going to be like, and not actually what the Scriptures tell us about these things.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm just curious 'where' you found those quotes from the Scriptures?

It's within my past studies of the four Empires starting with the Babylonian Empire up to the revived Roman Empire including a deep study of the Jesuit Militant Priesthood. The Jesuits have always secretly controlled the government of every nation from the time of Ignatius Loyola and his military background as the Pope gave approval for the Society of Jesus in 1540.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system that controls world wide economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France, who made his entrance into Rome, abolished the Roman government and established a secular one and captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon's Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to Pope Pius XI and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.

Jesus doesn't seem to speak with the same condemnation for the church at Pergamum as he does of the great harlot who's fornications and abominations have been committed with the kings of the earth. I really don't see that Jesus' words concerning the church at Pergamum, or any of the other churches, has any bearing on his words against the great whore Babylon. The Scriptures give a fairly compelling list of evidences by which this great harlot will be known. It ain't the church at Pergamum.

I'm just trying to define some terms and clear up some things that I think may be more, imagining of what it's going to be like, and not actually what the Scriptures tell us about these things.

I was only using the Church of Pergamum as an example of allowing false doctrines in the church as many become blinded to the true doctrines of Christ as they follow after the harlot.

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[miamited]

Hi for_his_glory

This beast is a Luciferian system that controls world wide economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious system.

Right, and that's what I'm asking you to show me 'where' in the Scriptures do we find that description of the the Beast?

This beast is a Luciferian system that controls world wide economics, political, military, educational, environmental and false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France, who made his entrance into Rome, abolished the Roman government and established a secular one and captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon's Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to Pope Pius XI and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.

While I'm not saying definitively that you are wrong, I question where you find all this descriptive talk that goes pretty well far afield of what the Scriptures actually tell us. What you've written here is a historical account of several past governments of the earth, but nowhere do I see that any of this gives credence to your claim that this Beast to come will control all the things that you are claiming.

You have also tied in the 'wound' of the head to be the break up of the Roman empire? I'm not quite sure I can make that connection either.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Davos]

I keep meaning to ask, what is a "PreMill Post Millennium Rapturist"?

 

[miamited]

Hi for_his_glory

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication

So, this Babylon, Babylon, that has or is falling, is then referred to with the pronoun 'her'. And it is this 'her' that has taken in and is filled with all of those Satanic propositions that you listed earlier. If that's where you're getting this theology that there's going to rise up this great power over people by some government that is going to control your list of issues, I think you may be wrong.

I agree that all of this is going to happen, I'm just not sure you're seeing it correctly. Kind of like all those who followed the plot of the Left Behind series think that the Antichrist is going to get shot in the head at a meeting, but no one will notice it. They believe that the wound to the head will be a physical wound to a human being's head.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

Right, and that's what I'm asking you to show me 'where' in the Scriptures do we find that description of the the Beast?


While I'm not saying definitively that you are wrong, I question where you find all this descriptive talk that goes pretty well far afield of what the Scriptures actually tell us. What you've written here is a historical account of several past governments of the earth, but nowhere do I see that any of this gives credence to your claim that this Beast to come will control all the things that you are claiming.

You have also tied in the 'wound' of the head to be the break up of the Roman empire? I'm not quite sure I can make that connection either.

God bless,
Ted

So much of this is a wide span of scripture, Biblical history, the study of the four Empires mixed with the past, present and future. It's very in-depth, but if you want I wrote a book on Revelation called The Unveiling that can be found in the subforum Revelation. Scroll down and if you read Chapter 13 it covers all of this with scripture and more than what I can display in here. It took me many years compiling all of this for many years, but to lengthy for the forum.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

So, this Babylon, Babylon, that has or is falling, is then referred to with the pronoun 'her'. And it is this 'her' that has taken in and is filled with all of those Satanic propositions that you listed earlier. If that's where you're getting this theology that there's going to rise up this great power over people by some government that is going to control your list of issues, I think you may be wrong.

I agree that all of this is going to happen, I'm just not sure you're seeing it correctly. Kind of like all those who followed the plot of the Left Behind series think that the Antichrist is going to get shot in the head at a meeting, but no one will notice it. They believe that the wound to the head will be a physical wound to a human being's head.

God bless,
Ted

Those Left Behind series are so unbiblical, but many will believe anything as I use to believe in a pretrib Rapture, but scripture does not support it no matter how hard they try to teach this. I use to believe all of that pretrib stuff before I started breaking away and studying all this for myself. All I can think about in my studies is all the persecutions against God's own beginning with Babylon Empire clear up to the Roman Empire believing that the Roman Empire has been revived, but disguises it's secrecy under the heading of religion. I can only hope I'm right.

 

[for_his_glory]

Right, and that's what I'm asking you to show me 'where' in the Scriptures do we find that description of the the Beast?

Oops I forgot to answer this. It starts in Daniel chapter two with Nebuchadnezzar's dream and Daniel explaining that dream. Then it's all a part of Daniel 7, 9 and runs throughout so many different scriptures ending with Revelation 17-18.

 

[Davos]

Hi for_his_glory

So, this Babylon, Babylon, that has or is falling, is then referred to with the pronoun 'her'. And it is this 'her' that has taken in and is filled with all of those Satanic propositions that you listed earlier. If that's where you're getting this theology that there's going to rise up this great power over people by some government that is going to control your list of issues, I think you may be wrong.

I agree that all of this is going to happen, I'm just not sure you're seeing it correctly. Kind of like all those who followed the plot of the Left Behind series think that the Antichrist is going to get shot in the head at a meeting, but no one will notice it. They believe that the wound to the head will be a physical wound to a human being's head.

God bless,
Ted

Don't countries today have genders? Fatherland, Motherland?

 

[for_his_glory]

Don't countries today have genders? Fatherland, Motherland?

These are just English words of description for the feminine and masculine just like the dominant image of Babylon in Rev 17 that the word woman is symbolic as the mother of harlots who sets out to seduce others. Also the same symbolism as the Bride of Christ being neither male or female. but of one body in Christ.

 

[miamited]

Don't countries today have genders? Fatherland, Motherland?

Yes. But I'm not referring to the words of men, but rather how God uses some particular words in certain places. I don't think you'll find either of those names anywhere translated in God's word. However, the two specific words that you bring up are generally terms that are used in the Germanic and Russo nations. I don't even think that Jews refer to their nation or the land thereof with either of those terms.

But for God, I'm pretty sure that He doesn't use them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Also the same symbolism as the Bride of Christ being neither male or female. but of one body in Christ.

But, in using that reference, you must see that God's word refers to His Son's church as a 'bride'. In those days, all brides were women. Not so much today, but in those days when God's word was brought forth. He uses the word 'bride' to describe the body of believers (the religious church if you will) with a feminine term.

That is my point. When God refers to something using feminine descriptors, I think we've found that He's referring to some sort of religious or faith issue or group. Hence, this harlot and great whore 'she' rides upon the Beast.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

But, in using that reference, you must see that God's word refers to His Son's church as a 'bride'. In those days, all brides were women. Not so much today, but in those days when God's word was brought forth. He uses the word 'bride' to describe the body of believers (the religious church if you will) with a feminine term.

That is my point. When God refers to something using feminine descriptors, I think we've found that He's referring to some sort of religious or faith issue or group. Hence, this harlot and great whore 'she' rides upon the Beast.

God bless,
Ted

That was my point in showing another instance of using the feminine, but in a good way being that of both male and female either being God's own or that of Satan's house.

We see in Rev 17 that the harlot plays the part of seduction arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

This is mystery Babylon that only remains a mystery to those with no understanding and are drawn into her fornications.

 

[Davos]

Yes. But I'm not referring to the words of men, but rather how God uses some particular words in certain places. I don't think you'll find either of those names anywhere translated in God's word. However, the two specific words that you bring up are generally terms that are used in the Germanic and Russo nations. I don't even think that Jews refer to their nation or the land thereof with either of those terms.

But for God, I'm pretty sure that He doesn't use them.

God bless,
Ted

Hi Ted (good name that. It was my dad's name, he was actually Albert Edward, but was always called Ted)
How about this verse?
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If the bride is the true church, the saints of God , the harlot ust be a false Church.

It doesn't fit.
The Catholic church is rich, not an economic system.
And certainly not in control of anything.
Never really has been.
That's one thing you can say for the Catholic church. It's always been a religious organization, not a secular one.

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted (good name that. It was my dad's name, he was actually Albert Edward, but was always called Ted)
How about this verse?
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Yes, but that isn't the same term, nor is it speaking of an earthly place that is a 'mother' of us all. Also, even in this, it is speaking of a 'spiritual' existence. So, it's still a female term used to describe a spiritual or religious issue. So I still stand by my claim that when God speaks in female gender terms, it is generally always about some religious or spiritual truth. Thus, the 'woman' riding the Beast is more than likely a scriptural reference to a spiritual or religious issue.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thus, the 'woman' riding the Beast is more than likely a scriptural reference to a spiritual or religious issue.

The city of Babylon, once literal, is a metonymy for the world and its ancient Babylonian system of commerce, characterized by luxury and excess, of which the nations and kings of the world became intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. The beast system that is coming will destroy her. For God has put it in the heart of the 10 horns/kings of the beast to do that. Bye, bye capitalism. Hello communism.

 

[Davos]

It doesn't fit.
The Catholic church is rich, not an economic system.
And certainly not in control of anything.
Never really has been.
That's one thing you can say for the Catholic church. It's always been a religious organization, not a secular one.

It is both religious and secular. The pope laims to rule over heaven, earth and hell wearing a triple crown to show it. Many countries have diplomatic nations with the Vatican. The Vatican issues Euros. It is a secular state first and a religious entity second. It has ruled kings, crowned kings, even made kings kneel down and crowned kings using their feet.