Questions Regarding Free WIll

[chessman]

It DID happen because they are done in people by adverse spirits AND because Jesus SAID it would happen, it DID happen.

Just beacuse Jesus knew Peter would deny Him before dawn, doesn't mean Peter didn't do it using his freewill. BTW, Jesus said Peter would deny Him, not that it would be done in him by adverse Spirits. And just because adverse spirits influence people to deny Christ and the Holy Spirit influences people not to deny Christ, doesn't mean people have freewills. At least not by the definition of freewill in this OP.

I don't credit any speakings to my will alone.

Good choice.

 

[smaller]

Just beacuse Jesus knew Peter would deny Him before dawn, doesn't mean Peter didn't do it using his freewill.

The flesh of Peter had no choice but to be contrary to and against Christ, regardless of what Peter "wished." Gal. 5:17.

No, the flesh can NOT make itself acceptable to God in Christ nor is it capable of doing so by wishes.

 

[chessman]

The flesh of Peter had no choice but to be contrary to and against Christ, regardless of what Peter "wished." Gal. 5:17.

You sure?

Galatians 5:16 (LEB) But I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never carry out the desire of the flesh.​

Notice, Jesus said YOU will never carry out the the desire of the flesh.

 

[smaller]

You sure?

Galatians 5:16 (LEB) But I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never carry out the desire of the flesh.​

Notice, Jesus YOU will never carry out the the desire of the flesh.

Whether such desires are carried out or not are quite entirely irrelevant to the fact that such desires ARE THERE and are contrary to the Spirit. Carrying out such desires serves to prove that the flesh is in charge, including any claims of trying to say it isn't so.

It might become rather obvious in short order that the flesh can not speak against itself, truthfully. It will instead claim it is in a non-contrary state and that is a speaking against what the Spirit does say about it. It is open proof of the facts of contrariness and a confirmation of the adversity therein.

My suggestion might be to abandon all hope for the flesh, for that which is contrary to the Spirit. And divide from it rather quickly rather than trying to save it and claim it in alignment with the Spirit, because IT AIN'T. Gal. 5:17.

 

[chessman]

God created the wicked and will also take great pleasure in destroying them.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

"He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done."
Leonardo da Vinci​

Notice, God will punish not just the adversarial spirits but will destroy the bodies and souls of all un-believers too. Matt 10:28

 

[chessman]

the flesh is in charge, including any claims of trying to say it isn't so.

Are you sure that's true (the flesh is in charge) of every person?

John 17:16 (LEB) They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.​

Hmm, was Jesus wrong in saying the remaining 11 disciples were "not of the world"?

 

[th1b.taylor]

The fact is that the God-breathed Scripture confirms that nature of free will in passages such as Genesis 2 & 3, and Acts 16:31 (ESV).

Your arguments do not hold theological clout because they violate what the Scriptures teach about free-will. Free will advocates are in step with what the Bible teaches.

I suggest that you take a read of Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free. It's the finest exposition of the biblical view of free-will that I've read. He bases the teaching on Scripture.

Oz

Amen, and Geisler is a good read for theology and end times ideology.

 

[th1b.taylor]

They may have not solved it for us, but many did solve it for themselves.

And under the prayerful, submissive direction of the Holy Spirit, any can solve it for themselves but self must be ignored.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The will can not chose to not have evil present. The will is inextricably bound to the opposite will. Romans 7:21 is not changed by will.

Is a will bound to evil present a free will? That claim is quite entirely laughably deceived.

Evil is not free. It is the curse that God Himself has put upon the flesh.

My will chooses constantly to ignore evil! Yes the evil is there with every one of us but we need not yeild to it. Free Will!

 

[th1b.taylor]

We as believers are to reign OVER this contrariness.

And with that statement you ruin your own position.

 

[smaller]

My will chooses constantly to ignore evil! Yes the evil is there with every one of us but we need not yeild to it. Free Will!

Neither should we say the flesh is for the Spirit because it isn't. The flesh will always find a way to excuse and justify itself. It can not by freewill speak truthfully against itself. As many are proving in this thread. Gal 5:17

 

[smaller]

And with that statement you ruin your own position.

How so? Would we justify the sin dwelling in our flesh and the evil present therein? Romans 7:17-21.

Never will the Spirit do that. Ever

 

[th1b.taylor]

The flesh of Peter had no choice but to be contrary to and against Christ, regardless of what Peter "wished." Gal. 5:17.

No, the flesh can NOT make itself acceptable to God in Christ nor is it capable of doing so by wishes.

My favorite example comes from a local sermon. In some states of the Roman Empire, if a murderer was captured immediately, the corpse was tied to the killer's back and was let decay until the corruption exterminated the murderer. My sin, in like manor, is strapped to my back and remembering the pleasure I thought I was experiencing is a steady pull on me, evil. Every moment I am awake I have decisions (Free Will) to make. I must choose to love God more than the Forbidden Fruit or to submit to the desires of the Old Man. (Free Will.)

 

[th1b.taylor]

How so? Would we justify the sin dwelling in our flesh and the evil present therein? Romans 7:17-21.

Never will the Spirit do that. Ever

Sorry, you are not giving me enough input for an intellgent response.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Neither should we say the flesh is for the Spirit because it isn't. The flesh will always find a way to excuse and justify itself. It can not by freewill speak truthfully against itself. As many are proving in this thread. Gal 5:17

Gal. 5:17 demonstrates that there are two wills present in the Saved Man to choose from and if you read my statements as one context, coming from one position, it proves my point. These two wills are influencing and not controlling wills and we are free to love God and to obey or we can turn our backs on God and sin.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You too Mr. Summers fail to recognize that the Spirit is actively against and contrary to the will of the flesh. Period. There is no release from this action of the Spirit against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit by any force of will. It is set by God Himself, by His Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

I do not fail to recognize it, nor have I said to the contrary. That Scripture is not hard to understand, it means exactly what it says. You are the one that says I fail to recognize it. There must be some other thing I posted that gives you that impression that is not compatible with your theology?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Maybe you didn't intend to imply this, but your statement "eventually God saw" has the assumption God did not have foreknowledge of what was to come. Since I believe God has foreknowledge of every action within the universe, you kind of lost me.

Doesn't God directing our path have some notion of him not simply responding to our decisions in such away as to keep us moving in his ordained direction? And if he only has our free willed decisions as a means of steering us, can He be sure our decisions lead toward his direction?

Doesn't free will necessitate God willingly delegating a limited degree of his sovereignty to us? How can he be sovereign if we are the final arbiter of our decisions?

With qualifications, I agree with you. I think the resolution lies in this passage:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)​

My stance stems from two observations. Throughout the bible, God gives people choices. From the prophets sent to warn nations and cities to repent or face the punishments set and ready to occure, to indivuals told to repent. Some did turn to God. Others didn't. Though I'm sure God knows in advance what we will do, and may even soften our hearts to more readily accept it, or garden our hearts as He did with the Pharaoh when Moses came to him. In the instances of when God takes a stake in our hearts, it can be said that we have less control, less free will. Possibly even to say we have no say in it at all. But why would God continually send his message to repent and come to Him, if our choices were not part of the equasion. That is the first observation as well as just in my own experience, it's either a very convincing illusion the ability to choose one decision over another, or that I have freedom over my decisions and choices.

The second observation is that God knows everything. And has a plan. Prophecies show this on a large and easily seen way, and I believe this also stems out towards us on an indivual level as well.

What you replied to is my best understanding of these two observed facets of God, and of life. In the first part I said God eventually saw Saul turn away from Him. And it's true, because God waited until Saul fell away from Him before acting against Saul.

To the second point you suggested that God responds to our decisions in ways to only put us on the path he already set out for us. In this I think it can be looked at continually as two paths. One laid out if we come to God, and one laid out if we turn from God. Throughout our lives each path broad in the nature that we have a lot of room to walk while on each one, and always there for us to choose one oath or the other continually throughout our lives. But I do think God give us at least that much room in our decisions in life. How much of the path is ordained and how much is choice is a philosophical debate because God knows before we choose any, so any choice is already known; and we don't know our choices before we make them, so we are discovering and making those choices as freely as anyone can. My theory is not just that God responds to our descisions, but is part of an active role in them. Letting us choose, pushing us, directing us, or giving us the authority in the sins we make to continue on in them as well.

Again these are my best attempts to understand the two observable facetsof the reality that we do have free choices in our lives as well as that God is sovereign over everything, including us, and also has His own plans laid out of the world and for us. Thankyou for pointing to the scripture in Philippians.

 

[childeye]

The point about looking in the mirror was, If you did, that is free will. And if you did not, that also is free will. Free will is a choice.

Respectfully, you have framed the discussion to say that free will means to be alive and sentient. Every moment of life is a choice/decision happening. But there are those of us who of course are not arguing that we are dead. We are sincerely trying to establish whether mankind is able to be righteous according to one's own discretion. For example, some men can choose to kill so as to steal five dollars, but I cannot choose to do that.... Why? Free will doesn't address the question of where a person's righteousness or unrighteousness comes from. In fact, it evades the issue by first asserting and then concluding that since there exists options, we simply choose.

 

[childeye]

God doesn't choose to love. He IS love, the very essence of it. He can't be any other way.

This is a very important observation in my view.

But us? Since we are not the very essence and substance of love we have to choose whether or not we are going to love.

Do you personally choose Love or do you experience Love moving you? The reason I say this, is because I believe that Love is what has been corrupted in mankind through unbelief. So therefore I see a tempter at work, telling me that love will cost me in my flesh if I follow the love that I feel, which is empathy and compassion. Therefore the choice/option to not love is being presented by a voice that is not me. The moral/immoral choice/decision or "free will", would not exist without Satan promoting the choice/option.

 

[chessman]

Whether such desires are carried out or not are quite entirely irrelevant to the fact that such desires ARE THERE and are contrary to the Spirit. ...

Galatians 5:24 (LEB). Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh together with its feelings and its desires.​

You sure these desires of the flesh ARE THERE?