Questions Regarding Free WIll

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What is free will? Go look in the mirror.

I see a forthcoming pile of dust. It is NOT a delusion. I could go to my own fathers grave and were it opened that reality would be there to show it.

No choices will change what God Himself set for our flesh. It will go to the dust from whence it came.

The Body we will have by faith in Christ has been purposely hidden and presently obscured. We are not free to see it, yet. No choice of ours will see it either. Col. 3:3

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The Spirit of Truth will show us both truth and reality when we look in the mirror. The flesh and it's deceptions will lie. Both claims will be made in opposition to each other's. Gal. 5:17

Only one is right and true.

 

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My understanding of free-will is the ability of contrary choice.

The problematic point free willer's have is they think their wills can remove the contrary against the Spirit realities of their flesh. And that is the deception of the flesh in full color deceiving them.

Gal. 5:17 changes it's stripes for no man by no choices made. Other than God Himself while in it.

Our supposed free will can not make the flesh something other than what it really is. Contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit.

But it really likes to see ITSELF otherwise.

Most of these discussions are just blowing hot air at the contrary state of the flesh, which won't change it or justify it.

Whatever the flesh has to say is of no interests to the Spirit. Other than to prove that the Spirit is right about "it".

 

[smaller]

The freewill choices can not choose to be free from the facts of contrary thoughts. Yet this will claims it is free?

Apparently not as free as it supposes. The freewill is quite securely nailed to contrariness and that's the truth. It can not choose to not have it. Gal. 5:17

In more severe cases this contrariness will even claim otherwise. There is delusion of the will personified.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Apparently not as free as it supposes. The freewill is quite securely nailed to contrariness and that's the truth. It can not choose to not have it. Gal. 5:17

True and permitted by God for our growth in either direction and we choose good or evil.

 

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True and permitted by God for our growth in either direction and we choose good or evil.

The will can not chose to not have evil present. The will is inextricably bound to the opposite will. Romans 7:21 is not changed by will.

Is a will bound to evil present a free will? That claim is quite entirely laughably deceived.

Evil is not free. It is the curse that God Himself has put upon the flesh.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I see a forthcoming pile of dust.

But did you go look in the mirror?

 

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The foundation of the Gospel of God's Grace is unmerited favor. Evil present with us can not earn or merit that favor of His Grace in Christ, by faith in Him, and not in ourselves. Nor does His Grace remove evil present with us.

In Romans 3:9 Paul tells us we are no better than any other as all are proven under sin.

Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

We as believers are to reign OVER this contrariness. But to say we do not have it to reign over OR that we are better is only to be deceived by it.

 

[smaller]

But did you go look in the mirror?

I see my flesh for what it is. A dead man.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The will can not chose to not have evil present. The will is inextricably bound to the opposite will. Romans 7:21 is not changed by will.

Is a will bound to evil present a free will? That claim is quite entirely laughably deceived.

Evil is not free. It is the curse that God Himself has put upon the flesh.

But you go on as if evil is there and good is not, that is not true except the person be possessed by a or some demons and even then Iḿ not at all sure that, with the demons in control, that the human still knows good but is prevented by the demons. Other than possession, we must decide and that involves Free Will.

For this discussion, let's consider Love. In Mark 12:30 we are, firmly, committed to love God with all of our being. So what? That impies we can refuse to choose to love Him, just as stupid teenagers jumped into the back seat at the drive-ins, deflowered the Lass and then, with evil, walked away from her. All requiring Free Will, at least for those of us that at some point changed our corrupt lives and turned to love our wives and to love God, not hating the restrictions both of those impose on our lives.

Yes, male and female, there are the the Gun Belt Notchers that cheat with impunity but they are using their free will to refuse being called by God and by their wives. (2Pet 3:9) God calls every, single, one of us but some use their free will to refuse that call and instead they choose, by default, to go into the eternally burning Lake of Fire. Free to choose or Free Will.

 

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But you go on as if evil is there

There is no question about that fact. Romans 7:21 is and remains quite a secure statement of fact. Despised as it is.

and good is not, that is not true except the person be possessed by a or some demons and even then Iḿ not at all sure that, with the demons in control,

One does not offset the other. No amounts of good will or good works eliminates evil present with us, that much is sure. Nor would I say there is no good also present. The notions of "scales" to say one is greater than the other and that our good earns us salvation though is not true. What we have in salvation is the hope of God's events release of evil from us. This is NOT in our power.

that the human still knows good but is prevented by the demons. Other than possession, we must decide and that involves Free Will.

Evil present has a contrary against the Spirit mind of its own. We can not by choices, eliminate that fact.

For this discussion, let's consider Love. In Mark 12:30 we are, firmly, committed to love God with all of our being.

Coming before God with a "whole" heart means an honest heart comes with both good and evil. See Hebrews 10:22 for an example. This essentially forces us to seek His Mercies in our walk and path in faith.

So what? That impies we can refuse to choose to love Him, just as stupid teenagers jumped into the back seat at the drive-ins, deflowered the Lass and then, with evil, walked away from her. All requiring Free Will, at least for those of us that at some point changed our corrupt lives and turned to love our wives and to love God, not hating the restrictions both of those impose on our lives.

It only proves that evil contrariness can dominate the flesh and again enslave a believer. It does not imply they made that choice. God does work against our evil present. He is not just and only our friendly Ghost.

Evil is slaveship, plain and simple. We can have dominance, but we can not have eradication. There is no dominion where there is not honesty.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The foundation of the Gospel of God's Grace is unmerited favor.

If one is created to go to the Lake of Fire, for ever, and another is created for no other reason than to live, eternally, with God, God is a capricious and at some points, an evil God. But we know from our studies and from a world of Christians gone astray, that God is Love and there is no evil in Him.

To be a TULIP, a Five Point Hyper Calvinist, much of scripture, by some means must be denied and that means, to me at least, that Scripture cannot be self authenticating, that every word of Scripture is not The Word of God. I am sorry but in Duet. 4:2 and at the last of Rev. 22, and one other place between them, God promised awful curses and plagues on such as should add or to omit a single word from God's Book, God's Love Letter to you.

God has no evil in Him but without any evil He could have, without all the muss and all the fuss, He could have created our spirits so they could do nothing more than to obey Him and to fawn over Him for eternity, saving the need for this stupid and then useless ball of dirt and all the amenities needed to make the place livable and desirable for the human beings.

But God does not want, just, obedience, He wants that served up because of the mutual feeling known to us as Love and love, absolutely, requires Free Will for it to b e given.

And from our studies we know we are created in God's own image. God did not forcibly submit submit to some higher power when He created everything, no, God used His free will and I submit, that free will is still found in the Image of God. God desires real love and real love is not robotic.

 

[th1b.taylor]

hope of God's events release of evil from us. This is NOT in our power.

But we are not forced to submit to either good or evil, free will, a.k.a. choice.

 

[reba]

Taylor if one is not for Christ one is against Him... There is no middle ground

 

[th1b.taylor]

Taylor if one is not for Christ one is against Him... There is no middle ground

Amen, did I misstate?

 

[smaller]

If one is created to go to the Lake of Fire, for ever, and another is created for no other reason than to live, eternally, with God, God is a capricious and at some points, an evil God.

We know for no uncertain fact that the devil and his messengers are going to the eternal flames with "no choices" to avoid it. Does that make God evil or just? IF God elected to make a throwaway entity class it's His Prerogative and no one can say a word about it.

Likewise, whether a person by lack of choice or lack of election winds up in hell there really isn't much difference as to end result between either factions sights is there? The bottom line math isn't any different in either case.

A case can be made that God was insufficient in granting a will sufficient to "save itself" and in that GOD is implicated as well. There will be no "but but but why didn't you strike ME down like you did Paul and make me believe?" Tough luck. It didn't happen.

So the notion that God is not implicated one way or the other is false. God is implicated either way. Determinism says it's Gods Choice either way. The best form of determinism says God can Elect to make any decision He Solely elects to make and we really don't know what those decisions might be.

IN determinism He is Superior and is perfectly right to make such decisions. In freewillism God is helpless about it and can't do a thing about it. Yet God is supposedly the one sending them to hell and can NOT change His Own Mind.

People really just need to think their logic through about the nonsense of the latter claim.

But we know from our studies and from a world of Christians gone astray, that God is Love and there is no evil in Him.

God can "use" and "deploy" the power of evil and not be evil. God can create anything and not be that created thing. The method you are trying to employ above makes God the "same as" that which He creates, in this case the power of evil. Here's news for you. God can and did/does create evil, PARTICULARLY in retribution to evil and not be evil Himself. The Bible is filled to the brim with examples of Gods Own Retributive evil including sending lying spirits into false prophets. The list of Gods Retributive Evil is quite extensive in the Bible. How people come up with the ideas that God can not destroy every last bit of this present creation if He wanted to is beyond me. That is actually a promise of the New Testament:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Whether we think the above is justified or not is quite entirely irrelevant. It WILL happen regardess.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I see my flesh for what it is. A dead man.

Romans 7:11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Yes, All born again believers do. Oh retched man that I'am, who will deliver me from the body of this Death (Rom. 7:24). The point about looking in the mirror was, If you did, that is free will. And if you did not, that also is free will. Free will is a choice. Free will includes mental reasoning. Gen. Custer had the choice of the Gatling Gun when he went to battle at Little Big Horn. If he had, the outcome would have been different. In free will we make decisions and then choose the path we want to take, If we survive the decision we learn from it. Free will is to choose. But choosing comes usually by a mental thought process by the information given or by the selfish thought that it will benefit you personal gains that is stronger than the warning in the information given (Deut. 30:11-20) (Gen. 2:17; 3:1-6)

 

[th1b.taylor]

We know for no uncertain fact that the devil and his messengers are going to the eternal flames with "no choices" to avoid it. Does that make God evil or just? IF God elected to make a throwaway entity class it's His Prerogative and no one can say a word about it.

And if you have prayerfully, submissively, and under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, I'm sure you recall these spirit persons, about a third of all the Angels God, created exercised their free will to earn their places in the Abyss. Satan, formerly known as Lucifer, decided to overthrow God to take His place and the remaining for following him.

This, shifting sand technique is not Christian at all and I pray you did not realize you were trying to build on a sandy beach. In short, you opening devalued anything you had to say beyond this point because the foundation you are building an argument on demonstrates I shouldn't be interested from this point forward because you just lept right out of a discussion into a pride filled argument built on, less than accurate or less than true statements.

 

[OzSpen]

The problematic point free willer's have is they think their wills can remove the contrary against the Spirit realities of their flesh. And that is the deception of the flesh in full color deceiving them.

Gal. 5:17 changes it's stripes for no man by no choices made. Other than God Himself while in it.

Our supposed free will can not make the flesh something other than what it really is. Contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit.

But it really likes to see ITSELF otherwise.

Most of these discussions are just blowing hot air at the contrary state of the flesh, which won't change it or justify it.

Whatever the flesh has to say is of no interests to the Spirit. Other than to prove that the Spirit is right about "it".

The fact is that the God-breathed Scripture confirms that nature of free will in passages such as Genesis 2 & 3, and Acts 16:31 (ESV).

Your arguments do not hold theological clout because they violate what the Scriptures teach about free-will. Free will advocates are in step with what the Bible teaches.

I suggest that you take a read of Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free. It's the finest exposition of the biblical view of free-will that I've read. He bases the teaching on Scripture.

Oz

 

[Hospes]

Christian luminaries from Augustine to Luther have looked at this issue, and have not solved it for us, should we expect a solution on this forum?

They may have not solved it for us, but many did solve it for themselves.

 

[chessman]

The problematic point free willer's have is they think their wills can remove the contrary against the Spirit realities of their flesh. And that is the deception of the flesh in full color deceiving them.

How about freewillers that think their wills CANNOT remove the contrary against the Spirit realites of their flesh, do they have this problem of which you speak?