Questions Regarding Free WIll

[chessman]

As stated prior, and still you do not see, that God has absolutely zero intentions of "saving" the devil and his messengers. Since these bad actors have sway/influences over ALL flesh, we should be cognizant of the other side of the coin. God does NOT have intentions of saving "them." Is God Willing to have "THEM" perish?

Assuredly.

It is quite pointless to handle the Sword of God without that edge in mind, and only see people where there is much more to see "other than" just people.

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Even here, we can see that it was Gods Own Intention to spiritually BLIND people of Israel, and to do so with the "spirit of slumber" that was put upon them.

Romans 11:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

It was exactly Gods Intentions to BLIND them and deafen them. The "device" used is the spirit of slumber. A spirit put upon them that was not/is not them. Same sights that we see in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2.

We can and do, hopefully, proclaim the Gospel to all. But it is only by the Election of God Himself who hears and who does not.

You didn't point out what I said about 2 Peter 3 that was wrong ("not the case").

 

[Douglas Summers]

ue love comes from

In short, you lose your free-will upon regeneration?

You do not lose it, you are just not inclined to abuse it. It is that new man (the Holy Spirit) that battles against practicing sin. It is an eternal Spirit, a new creation in you, created by God to those (who by the Gospel) could see themselves for the first time (his sinful nature) and were convicted by reality (the truth of him self) Romans chapters 7 & 8. But the convicted man still has to choose, and by his choice, (not joining) but converting (an act of man) to the calling of God through the Gospel is regenerated (an act of God) a new creation by God by the eternal Spirit

A man can be rebellious against the Spirit, but he is never lost (it is called grieving or hindering the Spirit in us). This is how God deals with that man (1 Cor. 3:9-23) This is Spiritual, and can not be understood in the flesh.

 

[smaller]

You didn't point out what I said about 2 Peter 3 that was wrong ("not the case").

I don't know how much clearer I could explain it. If you don't get it, I understand. When Peter says that God is not willing that any perish, it does not apply to the equations. God is exceptionally willing for the devil and his messengers to perish.

The blanket you seem to want to spread does not extend to them. There is no "promise of eternal life" to our spiritual adversaries.

2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The ALL in this equation ONLY APPLIES to MAN.

God has promised Eternal Life to those who believe in Christ. This is what we hold out to MAN in the Gospel. We say, simply, to believe IN HIM. But MAN has another working in their flesh, blinding them, that will not hear.

Our challenge is always to "get past" our spiritual adversaries when we hold forth the Gospel.

 

[chessman]

There is no "promise of eternal life" to our spiritual adversaries.

Okay, I'll buy that. Never said otherwise.

The ALL in this equation ONLY APPLIES to MAN.

When Peter says that God is not willing that any perish, it does not apply to the equations.

Nor does it apply to apples or oranges or the un-beloved. That was my point about the passage.

God is exceptionally willing for the devil and his messengers to perish.

Okay, I'll buy that. But not from 2 Peter 3:7-9.

The blanket you seem to want to spread does not extend to them.

I never said it did.

There is no "promise of eternal life" to our spiritual adversaries.

Okay, I never said there was.

The ALL in this equation ONLY APPLIES to MAN.

The ALL in 2 Peter 3:9, ONLY APPLIES to the BELOVED to whom Peter said it applied to.. That's my point. Applying the promise to anybody or anything else is extra-Biblical to this Text, anyway.

You still didn't point out my mistake in the post about that passage.

 

[childeye]

LOL! But just as I chose to turn from my sin, before I chose to accept Jesus and Eternal Salvation, those ladies did not hold a knife to my throat and force me. I knew God had spoken to me and still I chose to rebel. You will never sell me on the idea I am a preprogrammed robot. God wants love from us and without free will, there is no love, just mechanical obedience. I, with my free will love God for what He has done for me and that is all I can see.

But Mr. Taylor, how do you speak of rebellion against God, without any reason to rebel? And how do you claim a free will love for God while attributing it to what He has done for you? Those are not logical statements.

This is an example of how someone can control another person's mind through the power of suggestion. The suggestion is, "god can't make you love him". Now if I believe this one statement, the following spirits are placed in my subconscious. 1) That god has no right to force himself upon me. 2) That god is forcing himself upon me. 3) That loving god is up to my discretion. 4) That I decide whether or not I will worship and praise god. 5) That I decide whether god is worthy of praise and worship. 6) That the creature judges the creator. 7) Nobody tells me what to do.

As we can see, when Satan is saying that no one can tell us what to do, he is telling us what to do.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[th1b.taylor]

But Mr. Taylor, how do you speak of rebellion against God, without any reason to rebel? And how do you claim a free will love for God while attributing it to what He has done for you? Those are not logical statements.

If you can find that illogical, you need a fundamental class in beginning logic, sorry but with 71 years under my belt and having killed far to many people for trying to kill me, I have a great grip on life's logic.

 

[childeye]

If you can find that illogical, you need a fundamental class in beginning logic, sorry but with 71 years under my belt and having killed far to many people for trying to kill me, I have a great grip on life's logic.

Please don't take it personally. I mean no disrespect. In fact it is out of respect that I speak forthrightly to you.

It's simply not logical to me to rebel for no reason. Nor does it make any sense to me when you say that you volunteered to Love God without any influence from God, while also claiming you were moved by the things He's done for you to Love Him.

 

[chessman]

I don't know how much clearer I could explain it.

You could underline anything I said in post 156 about 2 Peter 3:7-9 that "is not the case", as you claimed in reply post 157, then explain why it is not the case.

 

[Douglas Summers]

If I didn't believe that I would not bother with God and would only bother with "freewill, freestanding" self interests.

smaller said .>>>"I would not bother with God"? Smaller, this is a statement that you are the one who decides whether God is worthy to be worshiped or not.? It is important to understand that God did not RECONCILE Himself to us, for God was not the trespasser. But it is God who reconciled us (mankind) to Him self through The Blood of Christ.. A born again believer never lowers the Holy position and crown of God to man as (we will do or decide), But God's place in our life is the head of man (for it is He that will do). And if he is not permanently fixed in that place by His saving grace. Then we are on sinking sand.

 

[WIP]

Please don't take it personally. I mean no disrespect. In fact it is out of respect that I speak forthrightly to you.

It's simply not logical to me to rebel for no reason. Nor does it make any sense to me when you say that you volunteered to Love God without any influence from God, while also claiming you were moved by the things He's done for you to Love Him.

Our rebellion is in our desire to be like gods and do our own thing rather than trust God.

 

[smaller]

Nor does it apply to apples or oranges or the un-beloved. That was my point about the passage.

The ALL in 2 Peter 3:9, ONLY APPLIES to the BELOVED to whom Peter said it applied to.. That's my point. Applying the promise to anybody or anything else is extra-Biblical to this Text, anyway.

God is certainly not willing that any believer perish. It won't and can't happen. Were this left to us, it would happen. We were NOT left with our own freewill to save ourselves. We never had that capacity to start with and it wasn't given to us to perform later either.

That is partly why I left the freewill camps of understandings. They are all too busy trying to destroy each others to preserve their own precious freewill, and to save themselves by it, themselves, and to give excuses why others don't buy their stories. I don't buy any of it.

You still didn't point out my mistake in the post about that passage.

God does not will to save all. Were that the case, then all would believe. They obviously don't.

God in Christ Himself calls the elect. And God in Christ Himself preserves them, eternally. John 5:24.

No one can believe in Christ, to even say that He Is their Savior, unless they are allowed to believe Christ. 1 Cor. 12:3. In the freewill camps He only might be their Savior, if their supposed freewill "performs adequately." With our own supposed freewill most believers can't even manage to see that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit, and vice versa. Gal. 5:17. That's how good freewill is. It is basically dishonest.

God called prophets to walk naked among people (Isaiah) and to marry a prostitute named Gomer (Hosea). Even in one case to eat bread baked by burning human feces (Ezekiel.) I doubt very much these men of God, these prophets of God free willed to do any of that. At least the prophet who begged God not to eat bread baked by human feces got an upgrade to eating by heated cow dung as an improvement.

 

[Douglas Summers]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

I surely hope you are not asking a question that you do not know the answer to? God owe's man nothing. In fact, God was so disappointed in man's continual will to do evil, according to his imagination, that He would completely destroy man and all that He created, except for His mercy and grace. Only a man who knows he needs saved believes in Jesus, The Christ of God.

 

[smaller]

smaller said .>>>"I would not bother with God"? Smaller, this is a statement that you are the one who decides whether God is worthy to be worshiped or not.?

No. It means I am not interested in seeing my supposed freewill as my Savior. I do believe that the courses of this present evil age are precisely controlled by God in Christ Himself for ultimate judgments of every wicked thing. Which God obviously allows to happen FOR His Judgments.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

It is important to understand that God did not RECONCILE Himself to us, for God was not the trespasser. But it is God who

reconciled us (mankind) to Him self through The Blood of Christ.. A born again believer never lowers the Holy position and crown of God to man as (we will do or decide), But God's place in our life is the head of man (for it is He that will do). And if he is not permanently fixed in that place by His saving grace. Then we are on sinking sand.

I'd agree with that observation.

 

[childeye]

Our rebellion is in our desire to be like gods and do our own thing rather than trust God.

I agree, but where does this attitude to disregard God come from? I would consider a will that TRUSTS God a free will. I would NOT consider a will that DOESN"T TRUST God a free will.
But what would I consider a free will that is capable of choosing either way? Double-mindedness.

 

[chessman]

God does not will to save all.

I never said He did. That was exactly my point in the post (#156, linked below). People that think that's what the passage says (and many do), aren't reading the actual passage for what it actually does say.

I realize many people think this passage is speaking about God being patient toward all people (universally). I don't. Why? Because it's not.

You replied to me implying that something was incorrect in my post (or all things, I don't know because you will not show me (underline it, quote it, whatever) what I said there that is "not the case") . I simply wanted to correct my thinking if something I said there was wrong.

I guess you just misunderstood what I wrote.

After asking three times for you to quote/underline exactly what I said about 2 Peter 3:7-9 in that post that was "not the case" and why, I will not ask again.

 

[smaller]

I never said He did. That was exactly my point in the post (#156, linked below). People that think that's what the passage says (and many do), aren't reading the actual passage for what it actually does say.

You replied to me implying that something was incorrect in my post (or all things, I don't know because you will not show me (underline it, quote it, whatever) what I said there that is "not the case") . I simply wanted to correct my thinking if something I said there was wrong.

What I have observed many times that even with believers it is not all of what we currently are that is saved. And I use 2 Cor. 12:7 from Paul as an example of what/who is NOT saved, even in our cases.

I guess you just misunderstood what I wrote.

Initially you may have missed the point noted above.

After asking three times for you to quote/underline exactly what I said about 2 Peter 3:7-9 in that post that was "not the case" and why, I will not ask again.

See previous and previous previous.

 

[OzSpen]

When my wife asks me to chose a restaurant and I go through a list of available options until I chose the one she wanted all along, am I making a freewill choice or was the outcome determined for me from the start?

I can't read your or your wife's minds. Are you saying you did not have a free-will choice to choose a restaurant?

If you are a sensible husband, you will choose a restaurant that she enjoys. But it's still a choice. You could have made a different choice. Foolish husband!

 

[chessman]

Are you saying you did not have a free-will choice to choose a restaurant?

It depends on your definition of freewill. But according to the definition of this thread, yes I had a freewill choice.

And I make the smart choice. Her's.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Please don't take it personally. I mean no disrespect. In fact it is out of respect that I speak forthrightly to you.

It's simply not logical to me to rebel for no reason.

In the 1950s and 60s, the teens that did not grow a DA. peg heir jeans, flip their collars, and drink beer and make whoopi in the back seat at the Drive In Movies, they did not rebel, were not logical. Perhaps a history lesson without a Revisionist spin on it is in order?

My Dad's generation rebelled, my generation rebelled My children rebelled and, perhaps, save you, your generation rebelled. There needs be no logic with young people for rebelling. Shoot, being nice, every person on the earth, beginning with Adam, has, for no reason at all, rebelled against God. Not trying to be cute but perhaps you need to study the scriptures with prayer and meditation and watch people. Just go to the park or for your shut in generation, to the Mall, park on a bench in the Common Area and just watch. It is entertaining and educational, especially when you are in serious study of the scriptures.

Nor does it make any sense to me when you say that you volunteered to Love God without any influence from God, while also claiming you were moved by the things He's done for you to Love Him.

Now, you find yourself in a group of no distinction other than they can all say I have rebuked them about Hyper-Extention of what I have said and often did not say at all. I never even indicated that what God did had no influence on my decision to love Him, no, my statement was quite the contrary.

Had my wife not combed her golden hair, just so, wore that white fur coat, 3 inch heels that made her legs look out of this world and had she not worn modest dresses that made her look, every bit the lady she was, all at the same time, considering I was going celibate, I would never have answered the call she placed to me, let alone marry her.

I almost hate to say this but it was much the same with my LORD. For better than twenty-three years He provided witness after witness and every time I was succeeding He would kick my feet out from under me and bring me back to the bottom of the heap. Had He not kept after me, I would never have exercised my free will and allow Him to remove the sin load from my back.

But you see, every time He kicked my feet out from under me, Satan sent at least one, well healed and young, young, lady to my rescue. I had a choice to make and when I made it I received the contract offer I had longed for for all of the previous twenty-five years. A two million dollar investment in equipment and band with a forty percent, ten year contract with an iron clad recording contract.

God was kicking my legs out from under me and Satan sent the Houston Rodeo Association to make me famous, I had to decide and God allowed, in His mercy, allowed me to.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Our rebellion is in our desire to be like gods and do our own thing rather than trust God.

Short, to the point, and correct!