Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Dustoftheearth]

Did you notice that the passage says, 'that the spirit may be saved.' It doesn't say the spirit will be saved but may be saved. The idea here is most likely to bring one to repentance so that the spirit is not lost but may be saved.

Hi Butch5

That seems to be a very flimsy argument.
Are you suggesting that it is a may be or may be not?

Act 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Would any of the 'may' above, be a maybe not?

'Repenting and returning may or maybe not wipe your sins away'?

'For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may, or may not be in accordance with grace'?

I don't disagree that the Lord will bring the person to repentance.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

How does this address the issue?

Paul lists a just few things of sin that will not inherit the Kingdom.

As has already been pointed out, he is speaking of those who have a lifestyle of such sins that are not the lifestyle of the true Christian.

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is a 'fact' as I mentioned earlier, that God will not allow any sin at all in to the Kingdom, not even spot, wrinkle or stain. A little leaven, leavens a whole lump.

I really don't understand how some Christians can even begin to believe in such a hokey cokey type of salvation.

In out, in out, you shake it all about.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

"There was a brother in the Corinthian church who was living in fornication with his father’s wife (1 Corinthians 5:1). Paul, by inspiration, states that he had “judged†this wayward man (v. 3). Further, he admonished the saints at Corinth to “put away the wicked man from among yourselves†(v. 13), which was a command to exercise church discipline. They were to expel the offender from their fellowship. The design of the discipline was to bring the wayward brother to repentance so that his “spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus†(v. 5; cf. 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15).

The implication is quite plain — if the fornicator did not abandon his evil, he would not be saved in the day of the Lord. If it was impossible for him to be lost, the function/goal of the discipline was misstated.
Here is an interesting thought: can one become so wicked that he is unfit for church fellowship, yet still fit for God’s fellowship?"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1131-can-a-christian-ever-be-lost

Was this man still a brother (in Christ) or not, when he committed this offence?

If after committing this offence he was no longer a brother in Christ, then what business was it of Pauls or the Church to discipline or judge anyone outside of the Body?

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to associate with fornicators.
1Co 5:10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world!
1Co 5:11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a person.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

If the man had lost his salvation, it would have been at the same time he committed the offence, not some hours, days weeks later. He would then not be named a brother, but one outside.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

You're trying to prove that the unrighteous will be saved. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"


Is stealing unrighteousness?

(I'm not Pelegian ether)

Are you saved by your own righteousness, or the righteousness of Christ?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

He remains a thief until he returns the horse or makes some kind of restitution for the horse. Sinning can be a state one is in and he remains in that state until he repents and leaves it. I can be in the state of New York and I remain in that state until I leave it. Likewise one can be living in a state of adultery or thievery and remain in that state until they leave it by repenting. No one will be saved in their sins.

If he has lost his salvation because of his sin, then how will he be able to repent without the Holy Spirit?

Would his sorrow be a godly sorrow or a worldly sorrow?

 

[Pard]

I do not see the issue here. Eternal security goes hand in hand with repentance.

We repent daily, always striving to prove ourselves set apart from the world, for God has set us apart from the world. But we do fall, the life of a Christian is cyclical. You experience states of great temptation, periods of sin, and then times of peace. It goes around and around, this is inevitable, though not an excuse! The object of our lives on this earth should be to ensure that each cycle gets tighter and tighter, meaning our fall becomes shorter and shorter, while also working to make our time of peace longer and longer. You do this all through God's grace and because you have been made righteous through the blood of Christ.

Eternal security fits right in as well because only the eternally secure will continue on the road of repentance day after day, fall after fall. Though some may appear to be secure in time they will grow wary of the road of repentance and shall fall away, but those who are destine for salvation will fight on wards.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I don't see any Calvin n you. Nope, people make mistakes. Sir, you sin an average of 99 times per day. My bet, you repent of 5 to 10% of them. I am not going to convince you. When you go to bed tonight, you better repent of every sin.. or burn baby burn...you never know when the ticker will give out...

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I do not see the issue here. Eternal security goes hand in hand with repentance.

We repent daily, always striving to prove ourselves set apart from the world, for God has set us apart from the world. But we do fall, the life of a Christian is cyclical. You experience states of great temptation, periods of sin, and then times of peace. It goes around and around, this is inevitable, though not an excuse! The object of our lives on this earth should be to ensure that each cycle gets tighter and tighter, meaning our fall becomes shorter and shorter, while also working to make our time of peace longer and longer. You do this all through God's grace and because you have been made righteous through the blood of Christ.

Eternal security fits right in as well because only the eternally secure will continue on the road of repentance day after day, fall after fall. Though some may appear to be secure in time they will grow wary of the road of repentance and shall fall away, but those who are destine for salvation will fight on wards.

Our friend set up a strawman and started beating

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

yes Ernest, repentance is the key.
as Paul states in Philippians 2:12b-13, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose".
this says that we are to love God, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and the resulting repentance.
it is a natural process for those who are saved.
if we love God, if we are filled with his Holy Spirit, then we will want to repent. it is a daily process to work out our salvation.
how can we say we love God and want to be with him for all eternity and still ignore his desire that we turn to him daily and repent of our sins?
if you truely love God then the Holy Spirit will convict you in your heart to repent.
can one walk away from God and then come back? yes!
can one walk away from God and never come back and still go spend all eternity with God?
only God can judge, but i doubt it. i think that would be sinning against the Holy Spirit.

 

[heymikey80]

Right allen, and great point.

If anyone thinks that changing someone's will doesn't have an impact on what they do, that's just a shallow, shallow view of what the human will is capable of. But to think that God is basing His salvation on human action is about as shallow a thought. It leads to implausible conclusions. If God can't save a quadriplegic or a person in a coma, or on a Cross, He wouldn't be a very powerful God.

And that seems to be the general problem -- it's shallow. When you talk about the depth of repentance, the depth of faith, you can't plausibly conclude it has no effect on action.

To the OP I would point out, I'd steal someone's horse as a Christian. At gunpoint. Or if the horse endangered my family. Or if there were a dozen other conditions. The problem is that the motives aren't taken into account. They're simply presumed.

I'd also commit other sins in fits of anger, or bitterness, or envy, or strife. Those are downright intentional, and I'm responsible, and they'd be deadly without Christ as my Atonement. And I'd do them. As a corrupt human being I need a Savior. Saying I don't after I accept Jesus seems itself a rather unthinking treatment of how far humanity is in sin, in this Creation.

 

[beardedad]

Does "go and sin no more" mean don't do that particular sin anymore? I believe there is a real danger in Christianity with the belief that we're sinners and were going to sin everyday. Why would a Christian have an expectation of sin? If one expects to sin every day, how does one ever gain a victory over sin? I think Christians put themselves in real danger when they think this way. It lowers one's expectation of self and one's ability to overcome.

Butch
Yes he was talking about that sin that she did. The problem I see is that there are christians that think they have to be perfect to go to heavan, which is impossable. We are born with a sinful nature and if it was not for Christ death we would all be going to hell. We have to stive for our best but alot of times we fail. You have gain victory over sin when you accept chist as your savior but you still cannot escape sin. To me you only lower your expectations when you think that you cannot sin.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

That seems to be a very flimsy argument.
Are you suggesting that it is a may be or may be not?

Act 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Would any of the 'may' above, be a maybe not?

'Repenting and returning may or maybe not wipe your sins away'?

'For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may, or may not be in accordance with grace'?

I don't disagree that the Lord will bring the person to repentance.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

A flimsy argument? It's what the Scriptures say. I gave you the meaning of the Greek text, not the English. The word may doesn't appear in the Greek text of Romans 4:16 . In Acts 3:19 the first occurrence of the word may doesn't exist. The second occurrence is translated "may come" because the Greek word translated "come" is in the subjunctive mood indication possibility of probability.

Additionally, your usage of these two passages in no bears on the use of the subjunctive being translated "may" in the verse in question.

 

[Butch5]

Butch
Yes he was talking about that sin that she did. The problem I see is that there are christians that think they have to be perfect to go to heavan, which is impossable. We are born with a sinful nature and if it was not for Christ death we would all be going to hell. We have to stive for our best but alot of times we fail. You have gain victory over sin when you accept chist as your savior but you still cannot escape sin. To me you only lower your expectations when you think that you cannot sin.

No one goes to heaven, but that's another issue. I didn't say anyone was going to be perfect. However, there is a big difference between not being perfect and I'm going to sin everyday so I guess I'll just accept it. I also never said a Christian cannot sin, that would be a ridiculous statement. We see that the apostles spoke of Christians sinning.

 

[Butch5]

yes Ernest, repentance is the key.
as Paul states in Philippians 2:12b-13, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose".
this says that we are to love God, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and the resulting repentance.
it is a natural process for those who are saved.
if we love God, if we are filled with his Holy Spirit, then we will want to repent. it is a daily process to work out our salvation.
how can we say we love God and want to be with him for all eternity and still ignore his desire that we turn to him daily and repent of our sins?
if you truely love God then the Holy Spirit will convict you in your heart to repent.
can one walk away from God and then come back? yes!
can one walk away from God and never come back and still go spend all eternity with God?
only God can judge, but i doubt it. i think that would be sinning against the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean by walk away from God?

 

[Butch5]

Paul lists a just few things of sin that will not inherit the Kingdom.

As has already been pointed out, he is speaking of those who have a lifestyle of such sins that are not the lifestyle of the true Christian.

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is a 'fact' as I mentioned earlier, that God will not allow any sin at all in to the Kingdom, not even spot, wrinkle or stain. A little leaven, leavens a whole lump.

I really don't understand how some Christians can even begin to believe in such a hokey cokey type of salvation.

In out, in out, you shake it all about.

What are you talking about, in, out, in, out? Are referring to getting, losing, and getting salvation again? If that is what you're referring to that's not what I believe. A person joins in a relationship with God once. If they reject it that's it. That's what the Scriptures teach. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that tells one they are unconditionally secure once they've entered into a relationship with God

 

[Butch5]

Are you saved by your own righteousness, or the righteousness of Christ?

Neither, one is saved by God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you look at 1 Cor 15:3 Paul says that Christ died for our sins. There is no contraditions we are all saved sinners. We are all sinners in the flesh but our souls are saved throgh Jesus death on the cross. Also, we read in I Peter 2:24, "Who Himself bore our sins

in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed." Jesus has personally paid the price for our sins, so that we can be made righteous before God. We read in I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also

suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God." Romans 5:6-10 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man

someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies

we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life" You know what John 3:16 says that all we have to do is believe on him to be saved, there was no other buts given. In all fairness we are

all sin, God hates sin, our salvation is given from God through Christs death on the cross to pay for our sins to God. In all fairness we should the thanking Christ for paying for our sins. If it were not for this nobody would make it. for as Paul states "As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one."

One cannot remain a sinner and be saved...."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." ..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

It is impossible to b both a sinner and saved at the same time so it is impossible for a Christian to steal and not repent yet maintain savlatin as an unrepetant sinner. What verse says unrepetant sinners will be saved? None for Jesus said to repent or perish, Lk 13:3,5. Eternal secuirty says just the exact opoosite of what the bible say about sinners being lost and not saved. In the verse you mentioned earlier from 1 Tim 1:15 "This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." The fact the verses says Jesus saves sinners implies sinners are lost for one that is already saved does not need saving.


Rom 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Rom 6:22-23 " But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "


One cannot be both free from sin and live as a sinner at the same time. The wages of sin is death and not salvation.


Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"


Everyone serves either one of two masters, we all serve either serve 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. One cannot serve both, one cannot be a sinner serving sin and also at the same time be a servant unto righteousness.



Abel was righteous, Heb 11:4

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually, it's not a fact statement. The word translated perish is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood indicates possibility or probability, but not certainty, thus the reason it's translated "may" not perish. If the statement was a fact then it would be in the indicative mood, it's not.

Jn 3:16 ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The NIV completely ignored the subjunctive and replaced it was an indicative mood as if it is a statement of fact one will not perish regardless if he continues to believeth (present tense) or not. Unfortunately many eternal securists often over look the little conditional word "IF" in many verses.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Was this man still a brother (in Christ) or not, when he committed this offence?

If after committing this offence he was no longer a brother in Christ, then what business was it of Pauls or the Church to discipline or judge anyone outside of the Body?

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to associate with fornicators.
1Co 5:10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world!
1Co 5:11 But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a person.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

If the man had lost his salvation, it would have been at the same time he committed the offence, not some hours, days weeks later. He would then not be named a brother, but one outside.

If the fornicator refused to repent he would not be saved. Again, in 1 Cor 6:9-11 fornicators are among those that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Are you arguing fornicators will inherit the kingdom of God?

THe problem at the church at Corinth (among their many other problems) was they had not practiced discipline with this wayward individual but had maintained fellowship with him and in doing so they were wrong.

Nowhere did Paul say this man could be a fornicator and remain a fornicator and still be saved as ES would say he could.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Are you saved by your own righteousness, or the righteousness of Christ?

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

It takes me working God's righteousness to be accepted with God. By working God's righteousness puts me in Christ where there I am covered by Christ's perfect righteousness and accepted by God. There is no salvation outside of Christ but there is no getting in Christ without working God's righteousness. Sinning, unrighteousness keeps one outside of Christ. One is either doing God's righteousness or they are doing unrighteousness, cannot do both at the same time.