Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

If he has lost his salvation because of his sin, then how will he be able to repent without the Holy Spirit?

Would his sorrow be a godly sorrow or a worldly sorrow?

Thievery is a sin that will cause him to be lost, 1 Cor 6:9-11. The reason I titled this thread Repentance vs ES was to show that ES is just the exact opposite of what the bible says on the subject of repetnace/salvation. ES says one can steal and not repent and be saved the bible says the opposite, those that steal will be lost if they do not repent.

One must repent from his heart and the Holy Spirit, separate and apart from the bible, does not make one repent.

 

[Pard]

All I see is that someone has a poor understand of eternal salvation. Eternal salvation says that those who are in Christ can never be removed from Him. Those who are in Christ would necessarily repent for any sin that they commit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I do not see the issue here. Eternal security goes hand in hand with repentance.

We repent daily, always striving to prove ourselves set apart from the world, for God has set us apart from the world. But we do fall, the life of a Christian is cyclical. You experience states of great temptation, periods of sin, and then times of peace. It goes around and around, this is inevitable, though not an excuse! The object of our lives on this earth should be to ensure that each cycle gets tighter and tighter, meaning our fall becomes shorter and shorter, while also working to make our time of peace longer and longer. You do this all through God's grace and because you have been made righteous through the blood of Christ.

Eternal security fits right in as well because only the eternally secure will continue on the road of repentance day after day, fall after fall. Though some may appear to be secure in time they will grow wary of the road of repentance and shall fall away, but those who are destine for salvation will fight on wards.

ES says one does not have to repent for ES has made salvation an uncondtioanl guarantee, that is, you cannot lose your salvation no matter what. Yet the bible makes savlation conditional upon repenting.
You say 'Eternal security goes hand in hand with repentance." Yet some here are suggesting a Christian can steal, not repent, and maintain salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All I see is that someone has a poor understand of eternal salvation. Eternal salvation says that those who are in Christ can never be removed from Him. Those who are in Christ would necessarily repent for any sin that they commit.

What verse say one can never be removed from Christ?
What verse says repentance is automatic?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't see any Calvin n you. Nope, people make mistakes. Sir, you sin an average of 99 times per day. My bet, you repent of 5 to 10% of them. I am not going to convince you. When you go to bed tonight, you better repent of every sin.. or burn baby burn...you never know when the ticker will give out...

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."


Continued repenting will keep ALL sins continually cleansed by Christ's blood and that is how the Christian is "holy and without blame' Eph 1:4.


ES says all sins do not need to be cleansed by Christ's blood for some sins can enter heaven and the Christian can be with some blame.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

yes Ernest, repentance is the key.
as Paul states in Philippians 2:12b-13, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose".
this says that we are to love God, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and the resulting repentance.
it is a natural process for those who are saved.
if we love God, if we are filled with his Holy Spirit, then we will want to repent. it is a daily process to work out our salvation.
how can we say we love God and want to be with him for all eternity and still ignore his desire that we turn to him daily and repent of our sins?
if you truely love God then the Holy Spirit will convict you in your heart to repent.
can one walk away from God and then come back? yes!
can one walk away from God and never come back and still go spend all eternity with God?
only God can judge, but i doubt it. i think that would be sinning against the Holy Spirit.

A Christian can turn from the faith and fall away, 1 Cor 10:12.

Heb 6:4-5 says that a Christian has "tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," BUT "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame." So it is clear that a Christian can fall away.

The Christian can fall into a state where he is in a present tense state of crucifying and putting to shame Christ and as long as he remains in that state he is lost for it will be impossible for him to repent while remaining in that state. Christ is the reason one repents and if one is in a present tense state where is is ongoingly crucifying and putting to shame 'the reason', then he will not be able to repent. But if he quits crucifying and putting to shame 'the reason' then he can then repent. Acts 8 Simon sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Spiirt and became lost but he did not remain in that state of sinning for he asked Peter to pray for him that he might be forgiven.

My point in this thread is that a Christian cannot steal his neighbors horse and unrepentantly keep that horse and yet maintain salvation. ES say he can be saved even while being a sinner/thief.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

i agree with you Ernest. i believe my earlier post testifies to what you have just said.

 

[Butch5]

Jn 3:16 ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The NIV completely ignored the subjunctive and replaced it was an indicative mood as if it is a statement of fact one will not perish regardless if he continues to believeth (present tense) or not. Unfortunately many eternal securists often over look the little conditional word "IF" in many verses.

Yes, I've notice that in several passages. I think there are quite a few instances where passages are translated based on the translators theology rather than the text.

 

[heymikey80]

Jn 3:16 ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The NIV completely ignored the subjunctive and replaced it was an indicative mood as if it is a statement of fact one will not perish regardless if he continues to believeth (present tense) or not. Unfortunately many eternal securists often over look the little conditional word "IF" in many verses.

Yes, I've notice that in several passages. I think there are quite a few instances where passages are translated based on the translators theology rather than the text.

Actually this is a common Greek usage in the First Century. What's happening here is that the present subjunctive ("may believe") is understood to mean future indicative, with the implication of purpose. Strangely enough, this exists in English as well: "that they would have eternal life" is a subjunctive, but it is meant as future tense. This form seems to me ambiguous on the same terms as the Greek version.

Y'can't have eternal life without a future. And so the logic concludes, subjunctives on an eternal future have to be future indicative, indicating purpose.

That's not the whole story here though. "whoever believes" is one of those interesting phrases, meaning that it's true of every single one who believes. No one is excepted, everyone who believes, God gave His Son for the purpose of believers -- all of 'em -- not perishing but having eternal life.

So John 3:16 continues to be a stiff denial of the OP: "each one of those believing would not perish, but would have eternal life."

 

[Deborah13]

No, the Lord will discipline us for each sin we commit. The good news is that after he has done so, he will forgive us.

Please give scripture to backup this statement. I'm at a loss as to where either statement is supported.

Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

What do you guys do with the Scriptures that speak of those who fell away? If the Scriptures are the final authority and they say some people fell way and were lost doesn't that take priority over someone's opinion?

Please give the scriptures you are speaking of. Please don't make a statement such as this without scripture that we can read for ourselves without searching for it.
Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

You quoted the rest of the passage in 1 Corinthians 6 which indicates that a man has a part in his salvation.

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

v 9 says the unrighteous- will not inherit. You my christian friends to not fit the bill. Paul describes you in v 11 & 12. You are righteous in Christ. A new creature, and He says that He WILL finish the good work He began in you.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

You see, it is Jesus Himself who will perform this work in you and you know that He is always faithful and cannot lie. So be of good cheer, and service the Lord with a thankful, joyful heart. You are saved and will be perserved in Him.



Paul clearly states that a christian is washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Jesus by the Spirit of God. It has been done, finished, completed.
Read verse 12, ALL things are lawful unto me but not expedient. In other words not a good idea and he says he will not be brought under the power of any.
He goes on to remind them who they are in Christ and that for them to comment fornication they are sinning against their own bodies.

I find it interesting that some of the people who really understand Paul's radical teachings on grace (but have no spiritual revelation of it) deny Paul as an apostle of Christ. They are so offended by his teaching that they reject all the books written by Paul even though they accept the first four books of the NT.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually this is a common Greek usage in the First Century. What's happening here is that the present subjunctive ("may believe") is understood to mean future indicative, with the implication of purpose. Strangely enough, this exists in English as well: "that they would have eternal life" is a subjunctive, but it is meant as future tense. This form seems to me ambiguous on the same terms as the Greek version.

Y'can't have eternal life without a future. And so the logic concludes, subjunctives on an eternal future have to be future indicative, indicating purpose.

That's not the whole story here though. "whoever believes" is one of those interesting phrases, meaning that it's true of every single one who believes. No one is excepted, everyone who believes, God gave His Son for the purpose of believers -- all of 'em -- not perishing but having eternal life.

So John 3:16 continues to be a stiff denial of the OP: "each one of those believing would not perish, but would have eternal life."

If one quits believing will or will he not perish?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

v 9 says the unrighteous- will not inherit. You my christian friends to not fit the bill. Paul describes you in v 11 & 12. You are righteous in Christ. A new creature, and He says that He WILL finish the good work He began in you.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

You see, it is Jesus Himself who will perform this work in you and you know that He is always faithful and cannot lie. So be of good cheer, and service the Lord with a thankful, joyful heart. You are saved and will be perserved in Him.



Paul clearly states that a christian is washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Jesus by the Spirit of God. It has been done, finished, completed.
Read verse 12, ALL things are lawful unto me but not expedient. In other words not a good idea and he says he will not be brought under the power of any.
He goes on to remind them who they are in Christ and that for them to comment fornication they are sinning against their own bodies.

I find it interesting that some of the people who really understand Paul's radical teachings on grace (but have no spiritual revelation of it) deny Paul as an apostle of Christ. They are so offended by his teaching that they reject all the books written by Paul even though they accept the first four books of the NT.

Phil 1:5 goes with verse 6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

God does not work in people randomly or randomly choose what people to work in and what people not to work in. The Philippians had been keeping the gospel and by choosing to obey the gospel God is working in them through the gospel. If they quit keeping the gospel God no longer works in them.

 

[Deborah13]

Phil 1:5 goes with verse 6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

God does not work in people randomly or randomly choose what people to work in and what people not to work in. The Philippians had been keeping the gospel and by choosing to obey the gospel God is working in them through the gospel. If they quit keeping the gospel God no longer works in them.

I fail to see th "if" in Phil 1:5

God works in who He chooses to work in. We have no say in that.

If the Holy Spirit was not and is not working in you and I we would never have been saved in the first place nor would we be able to continue in the faith. We can claim no credit for either.

 

[Deborah13]

I fail to see th "if" in Phil 1:5

God works in who He chooses to work in. We have no say in that.

If the Holy Spirit was not and is not working in you and I we would never have been saved in the first place nor would we be able to continue in the faith. We can claim no credit for either.

What is your understanding/interpretation of 1 Corinthians 1:11 & 12 ? Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

If one quits believing will or will he not perish?

What do you mean by quits believing? What exactly do they quit believing?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

A flimsy argument? It's what the Scriptures say. I gave you the meaning of the Greek text, not the English. The word may doesn't appear in the Greek text of Romans 4:16 . In Acts 3:19 the first occurrence of the word may doesn't exist. The second occurrence is translated "may come" because the Greek word translated "come" is in the subjunctive mood indication possibility of probability.

Additionally, your usage of these two passages in no bears on the use of the subjunctive being translated "may" in the verse in question.

Hi again Butch5

You gave no Greek meaning at all, you just said 'may' and what 'you think' it may mean.

Having looked it up, it is that same word used in John 3:17 and Mark 5:23
4982 [e] sōthē σωθῇ 'might be saved' V-ASP-3S

Mark 5:23 V-ASP-3S
BIB: αὐτῇ ἵνα σωθῇ καὶ ζήσῃ
NAS: on her, so that she will get well and live.
KJV: that she may be healed; and
INT: on her so that she might be cured and she shall live

Most translations I have say 'may' but these translations have:

(NASB) and *implored Him earnestly, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death; please come and lay Your hands on her, so that she will get well and live."

(LEB) And he was imploring him many times, saying, "My little daughter [is at the point of death]! Come, lay your hands on her, so that she will get well and will live."

(ALT) And he was earnestly pleading with Him, saying, "My little daughter has the last extremity [fig., is at the point of death]. [I ask] that having come, You lay Your hands on her, in order that she shall be cured and will live."

John 3:17 V-ASP-3S
BIB: ἀλλ' ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος
NAS: but that the world might be saved through
KJV: through him might be saved.
INT: but that might be saved the world

(ALT) "For God did not send His Son into the world so that He should judge the world, but so that the world shall be saved through Him.

(ASV) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

(LEB) For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

(NAS77) "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

(RV) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

1 Corinthians 5:5 V-ASP-3S
BIB: τὸ πνεῦμα σωθῇ ἐν τῇ
NAS: that his spirit may be saved in the day
KJV: the spirit may be saved in
INT: the spirit might be saved in the

(ALT) to hand over such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit shall be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

I will add a follow on below this.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

A flimsy argument? It's what the Scriptures say. I gave you the meaning of the Greek text, not the English. The word may doesn't appear in the Greek text of Romans 4:16 . In Acts 3:19 the first occurrence of the word may doesn't exist. The second occurrence is translated "may come" because the Greek word translated "come" is in the subjunctive mood indication possibility of probability.

Additionally, your usage of these two passages in no bears on the use of the subjunctive being translated "may" in the verse in question.

Follow on:

There is something else to take into consideration.

We can never judge another person's salvation, and neither would Paul.
There is always an element of doubt of Christ in them, 'until' we see the fruit of Christ in them.

Paul spoke and dealt with all who were 'named' a brother, as though they were a brother, even though we know that not all who are named a brother are brothers in Christ.

1Co 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one
As a named brother, we have a duty to not have the name of God blasphemed in the world, caused by our wrong doings.

Paul used the words "so-called brother" in do "not to associate with any so-called brother" as in there must be an element of doubt, unless or until there is fruit.

Fruit does not appear immediately, but after much patience. The ground first needs to be made good, then the seed of the word needs to take root and do some growing before there is any fruit.

What this man had done, did not even exist among the Gentiles.
We can and should judge a brothers actions in such matters, but we can never judge a named brothers heart.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

What are you talking about, in, out, in, out? Are referring to getting, losing, and getting salvation again? If that is what you're referring to that's not what I believe. A person joins in a relationship with God once. If they reject it that's it. That's what the Scriptures teach. There is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that tells one they are unconditionally secure once they've entered into a relationship with God

And how does one reject it?

If they have entered in a relationship, then they have not rejected it.

If they have entered in a relationship with God, then they have been born again into a new man.

Does this new man somehow become unborn again, and then somehow re-enters being the old man that has been crucified with Christ?
I know from scripture that God has demonstrated His love for us, and provided a way in which we can become born again. That was by sending His only begotten Son into the world to die for us.

Perhaps you can demonstrate for us in scripture, how God has provided a way for us to undo what He has done, and become unborn again? How has God provided a way for us to become un-crucified with Christ, and become the old man again.