Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[ezra]

thye biggest issue with eternal security in scripture is Ignorance they are so blinded by the fact they can be secure in Christ ..scriptures plainly tell us that. eternal security does not give one a excuse/reason to live how they want. still make it to heaven thats not Bible ...there was a time i could not even say eternal life... eternal security is placing your faith in Christ for salvation.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Neither, one is saved by God.

It is true that we are saved by God, but now you are confusing me in what you really believe Butch5

We are either saved by God, and God alone, or saved by ourselves.
Our salvation is God's glory, and He will not share His glory with any man.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

If the fornicator refused to repent he would not be saved. Again, in 1 Cor 6:9-11 fornicators are among those that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Are you arguing fornicators will inherit the kingdom of God?

THe problem at the church at Corinth (among their many other problems) was they had not practiced discipline with this wayward individual but had maintained fellowship with him and in doing so they were wrong.

Nowhere did Paul say this man could be a fornicator and remain a fornicator and still be saved as ES would say he could.

You have not answered the question.

Was he or was he not still a brother?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

It takes me working God's righteousness to be accepted with God. By working God's righteousness puts me in Christ where there I am covered by Christ's perfect righteousness and accepted by God. There is no salvation outside of Christ but there is no getting in Christ without working God's righteousness. Sinning, unrighteousness keeps one outside of Christ. One is either doing God's righteousness or they are doing unrighteousness, cannot do both at the same time.

How can anyone work God's righteousness without first being in Christ?

Are you suggesting that the flesh can be profitable, and do what the spirit does?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Originally Posted by Ernest T. Bass
Jn 3:16 ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The NIV completely ignored the subjunctive and replaced it was an indicative mood as if it is a statement of fact one will not perish regardless if he continues to believeth (present tense) or not. Unfortunately many eternal securists often over look the little conditional word "IF" in many verses.

Yes, I've notice that in several passages. I think there are quite a few instances where passages are translated based on the translators theology rather than the text.

Ok so is it, if I believe today I shall not perish, but if I should not believe tomorrow then I perish?

That would mean, if tomorrow I somehow don't believe and perish, then the 'today' statement is a lie.
How can one 'truly' believe, and then end up perishing because of unbelief?

You make "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" to be a lie, because something happened (unbelief) that he should perish.

'whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, because God will keep them believing unto eternal life'

The problem could be that someone believes by faith hearing the word of God, or someone intellectually believes from cleaver and persuasive words. Let he who has ears hear what the Spirit says.

The first is 'knowing' (heart) and the second is 'knowledge' (mind)
You can change your mind as your knowledge may change, but you can never change what you know is true in your heart.

If you have heard and believe, it is impossible to not believe. At best, one can try and deny what they know is true.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I fail to see th "if" in Phil 1:5

God works in who He chooses to work in. We have no say in that.

If the Holy Spirit was not and is not working in you and I we would never have been saved in the first place nor would we be able to continue in the faith. We can claim no credit for either.

God does not randomly choose whom He will or will not work in. If that were true, then if God did not work in me then me being lost is due to a failure on God's part to work in me. Since God is not culpable for the lost, God works in those who have chosen to keep His gospel. Likewise the Holy Spirit does not miraculously operate on people apart from the word for them to be saved. If that were true, then if the HS did operate in some miraculous manner upon me then I would be lost due to the failure of the HS miraculously operating upon me making the HS culpable for the lost. Since the HS is not culpable for the lost, the HS through His word saves. People can hear the word, upon hearing the word can then choose to believe, repent, confess, be baptized into Christ. If people chose to not believe then they will be culpable for themselves being lost.

Since God nor the HS are not culpable for the lost Phil 1:5,6 does not teach ES.

 

[Butch5]

Please give the scriptures you are speaking of. Please don't make a statement such as this without scripture that we can read for ourselves without searching for it.
Thanks

Deborah13,

They've been given time and time again. Judas is one. Here's another.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What do you mean by quits believing? What exactly do they quit believing?

people can choose to believe the gospel and they can choose to quit beleiving, turn from or lose their faith, Heb 3:12 Heb 4:11 1 Tim 4:1 1 Tim 5:8,12 1 Tim 6:10 etc


Jn 3:16 mentioned earlier "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The verb 'believeth' is present tense showing an ongoing sustained action and not just a one time or occasional action.

The verb 'should' is subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."

So the action of perishing may or may not occur depending upon if one maintains an ongoing, sustained belief, meaning if one turns from or loses his faith then he can perish.

Charles Stanley, among others, who believe in ES incredibly and unbiblically says one can lose their faith and still be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

thye biggest issue with eternal security in scripture is Ignorance they are so blinded by the fact they can be secure in Christ ..scriptures plainly tell us that. eternal security does not give one a excuse/reason to live how they want. still make it to heaven thats not Bible ...there was a time i could not even say eternal life... eternal security is placing your faith in Christ for salvation.

ES is not found anywhere in the bible. Just from this thread the error of ES has people actually thinking one can be a thief, fornicator, that is be unrighteous and yet still be saved contrary to 1 Cor 6:9-11.

 

[Butch5]

1 Corinthians 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

v 9 says the unrighteous- will not inherit. You my christian friends to not fit the bill. Paul describes you in v 11 & 12. You are righteous in Christ. A new creature, and He says that He WILL finish the good work He began in you.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

You see, it is Jesus Himself who will perform this work in you and you know that He is always faithful and cannot lie. So be of good cheer, and service the Lord with a thankful, joyful heart. You are saved and will be perserved in Him.



Paul clearly states that a christian is washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Jesus by the Spirit of God. It has been done, finished, completed.
Read verse 12, ALL things are lawful unto me but not expedient. In other words not a good idea and he says he will not be brought under the power of any.
He goes on to remind them who they are in Christ and that for them to comment fornication they are sinning against their own bodies.

I find it interesting that some of the people who really understand Paul's radical teachings on grace (but have no spiritual revelation of it) deny Paul as an apostle of Christ. They are so offended by his teaching that they reject all the books written by Paul even though they accept the first four books of the NT.

The post was to show that there was something man must do. When Paul says to the Corinthians, 'you are washed' he uses that middle voice. meaning they washed themselves. He is referring to their baptism. That is something one does.

You also quoted Philippians 1:6. Paul said he was confident, that is not a guarantee. He is expressing his opinion that given their way of life to this point he believes they continue in Christ and that Christ will continue to work in them

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You have not answered the question.

Was he or was he not still a brother?

An erring, lost brother.

My question is will fornicators be saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How can anyone work God's righteousness without first being in Christ?

Are you suggesting that the flesh can be profitable, and do what the spirit does?

Those whom Peter preached the word to in Acts 2 were lost. They were lost but they were still able hear and understand what Peter said, they were lost but they were able to be pricked in the heart/believe, they were lost but they were able ask what they must do, they were lost until they finally obeyed by submitting to being baptized for remission of sins.

 

[ezra]

ES is not found anywhere in the bible. Just from this thread the error of ES has people actually thinking one can be a thief, fornicator, that is be unrighteous and yet still be saved contrary to 1 Cor 6:9-11.

jude 24 24 Now unto him that is able to{ keep you from falling, and to present you faultless } before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


Hebrews 5:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. i never said the word eternal security was there i said we can be secure in our salvation but i did just show you scripture

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

[Butch5]

Follow on:

There is something else to take into consideration.

We can never judge another person's salvation, and neither would Paul.
There is always an element of doubt of Christ in them, 'until' we see the fruit of Christ in them.

Paul spoke and dealt with all who were 'named' a brother, as though they were a brother, even though we know that not all who are named a brother are brothers in Christ.

1Co 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one
As a named brother, we have a duty to not have the name of God blasphemed in the world, caused by our wrong doings.

Paul used the words "so-called brother" in do "not to associate with any so-called brother" as in there must be an element of doubt, unless or until there is fruit.

Fruit does not appear immediately, but after much patience. The ground first needs to be made good, then the seed of the word needs to take root and do some growing before there is any fruit.

What this man had done, did not even exist among the Gentiles.
We can and should judge a brothers actions in such matters, but we can never judge a named brothers heart.

Hi Dustoftheearth,

The English translations can help but the Greek is in the subjunctive mood as you've seen. I'm not sure what you were getting at when you spoke about a so-called brother. I was mere pointing out that the verse were in the subjunctive mood.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

An erring, lost brother.

Depending what you mean by 'lost'

No such thing as a lost brother in Christ

My question is will fornicators be saved?

Yes

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Depending what you mean by 'lost'

No such thing as a lost brother in Christ

Lost as in not saved. The purpose of the discipline as described by Paul was that he "may be saved". If salvation cannot be lost then the purpose of the discipline was erroneous.

Yes

Then this man would be lost for he was a fornicator.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

jude 24 24 Now unto him that is able to{ keep you from falling, and to present you faultless } before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

"Able" does not mean a certain, unconditional guarantee

Hebrews 5:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

One must conditionally obey to be saved, if one quits obeying he will be lost.

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. i never said the word eternal security was there i said we can be secure in our salvation but i did just show you scripture

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

A promise is not an unconditional guarantee. God never promised eternal life to the unrighteous and if a Christian falls away into unrighteouness he will not recevie this promise.

in 1 jn 5:11 who were the ones given eternal life and why were they given it?

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. "

The ones given eternal life were the ones who believe (present tense). Those that do not maintain a present tense belief forfeit the gift of eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

And how does one reject it?

If they have entered in a relationship, then they have not rejected it.

They can reject it by not abiding in Christ, by choosing sin over Christ.

If they have entered in a relationship with God, then they have been born
again into a new man.

What is the new man? Isn't it having the slate wiped clean and indwelling of the Spirit? I mean one is not physically a new man, one doesn't lose their desires, they don't immediately stop sinning, etc. A person is still the same person they were before, however, the sins have been forgiven, a clean slate.

Does this new man somehow become unborn again, and then somehow re-enters being the old man that has been crucified with Christ?

Unborn again? No, One can simply decide they'd rather have the things of the world. The term born again is really a term that relates to Israel. The Jews believed they would received the promises of God because they were Abraham's seed, his physical seed. Nicodemus thought because he was a Jew he was entitled to those promises. Jesus told him unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. What he was telling Nicodemus was that his physical (flesh) birth from Abraham was not sufficient for him to gain those promises. The term born again only is only used a few times in Scripture and every time it is in reference to Jews.

I know from scripture that God has demonstrated His love for us, and provided a way in which we can become born again. That was by sending His only begotten Son into the world to die for us.

Perhaps you can demonstrate for us in scripture, how God has provided a way for us to undo what He has done, and become unborn again? How has God provided a way for us to become un-crucified with Christ, and become the old man again.

There are several passages that address this issue.

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(Heb 3:8-14 KJV)

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Hi Dustoftheearth,

The English translations can help but the Greek is in the subjunctive mood as you've seen. I'm not sure what you were getting at when you spoke about a so-called brother. I was mere pointing out that the verse were in the subjunctive mood.

I am suggesting that the subjunctive mood is possibly there because Paul had no way of knowing if the man was truly a brother in Christ. Paul said that there are 'so-called' brothers. They may have made a confessions of belief, but perhaps they have not truly heard and believed in the heart.

Again, the only way we can know for sure that someone is a true brother in Christ, is by their fruit. If we see the fruit of Christ in them, then they are surely brothers in Christ, and not some 'so-called' brother.

We are not God who knows who are His, and we do not know a person's heart.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Lost as in not saved. The purpose of the discipline as described by Paul was that he "may be saved". If salvation cannot be lost then the purpose of the discipline was erroneous.

Why?

God disciplines us because we are His children and that He loves us.

[FONT=&quot]Would you utterly destroy a child of yours, because otherwise discipline would be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]erroneous?[/FONT]

I have explianed the possible reason for the [FONT=&quot]subjunctive mood
[/FONT]

Then this man would be lost for he was a fornicator.

Says who?