Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Dustoftheearth]

Originally Posted by Ernest T. Bass
What do they do with 1 Cor 6:9-11 that explicitly states thieves will not inherit the kingdom of heaven?

I don't see how one can get around it.

It is very simple if you would be willing to hear.

Will there be any sin at all in the Kingdom? No
Will there be even spot, stain or wrinkle in the Kingdom? No

Why?


For when we meet Him face to face, we shall be like He is.
We will all (who are His) be 'changed' into His likeness

Behold I make all things new, and there will not be thief’s, or drunkards, or fornicators etc… neither spot stain or wrinkle, because it will all be eradicated as we enter the kingdom..

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

 

[Butch5]

Let's take a biblical example:

Can a Christian have his father's wife and then boast about it, and still be saved if he has not repented of it?

1Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Did you notice that the passage says, 'that the spirit may be saved.' It doesn't say the spirit will be saved but may be saved. The idea here is most likely to bring one to repentance so that the spirit is not lost but may be saved.

 

[Butch5]

It is very simple if you would be willing to hear.

Will there be any sin at all in the Kingdom? No
Will there be even spot, stain or wrinkle in the Kingdom? No

Why?


For when we meet Him face to face, we shall be like He is.
We will all (who are His) be 'changed' into His likeness

Behold I make all things new, and there will not be thief’s, or drunkards, or fornicators etc… neither spot stain or wrinkle, because it will all be eradicated as we enter the kingdom..

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

How does this address the issue?

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

So a Christian can steal and yet be saved, 1 Cor 6:9-11 ?

That scripture is speaking of a lifestyle of sin. Not an occasional misstep. Surely you cannot believe that you have not sinned today. Nor could you have repented of all of your sins of omission and commission... My bet is that every night you go to sleep, you have at least one unconfessed sin...

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

So a Christian can steal and commit adultery and yet be saved, 1 Cor 6:9-11 ?

If a Christian can do one act of unrighteousness and still be saved, why can't they do four or five acts of unrighteousness and still be saved? Or nine or ten and still be saved? Twenty or twenty five and still be saved?


(I am not Arminian by the way)

question one answered in other response.
questions 2, 3, and 4 We do every day. And so do you. You should look up the word sanctification.

Are you going to tell me that God will send a new believer to Hell if he should sin and then die before he has a chance to repent? Just say'n...

You must be Pelagian then. You are not a Calvinist with the tone that I am reading.

 

[beardedad]

Paul was talking about thieves - period. Paul made no exceptions...thieves (all of them no matter who they are) will not inherit the kingdom of God. But those Christians that conditionally repent of their sins can make it to heaven. 'Goofing off at work' is stealing time from the employer and the Christian should not be doing it and had better repent and quit doing if they are. Nowhere did Paul, in Romans or elsewhere, make any allowances or give any license to Christians to sin yet can still maintain their salvation. There is no such thing as a Christian can commit X number of sins and still be saved. One sin is sufficient to make one be lost. That is why Paul said in Eph 1:4 that Christians are 'holy and without blame' and it takes conditional obedience in repenting to keep the Christian without blame, 1 Jn 1:7. WHen Paul said he was chief among sinners Paul was expressing a present regret over his past sinning. 1 Tim 1:13 Paul spoke of his sinning in the past not in the present and Paul was not presently a sinner who was sinning "ignorantly in unbelief". If Paul was presently a sinner and saved, that contradicts a host of verses Paul wrote. Paul once wrote "Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ." 1 Cor 11:1. This means if Paul was a chief sinner then Christ was a chief sinner as Paul followed Christ's example. Paul wrote Rom 6:6,11 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " If Paul was a sinner his old man was not crucified and he was not following his owns words in that Christians are not to serve sin and Paul would not be alive to God but alive unto sin.

I am sorry you feel this way, but Paul says that he is a sinner and a saved man. He states that the body is sin but the spirit is saved. Man was born a sinner and will remain a sinner until death. There is no denying this fact. No matter how hard we try we cannot deliver our self from sin, only god can. As I stated before Christ was our sacrifice that paid for our sins past, present and future, all of them. Without this no one would go to Glory. There is no way that you can live a day without sin, nobody could, only Christ was able to. To me repenting or not repenting does not in itself gives us or takes away our salvation, only our faith in Christ gives us this assurance of what we have not of what some might think we could lose.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

i have a problem with this.

where is the repentance if one steals a horse and doesn't return it?

the apostle paul tells us to continually repent of our sins.

how can we sin against God and not repent and still claim to be right with God?

it's like stealing money from your father and trying to justify it by saying it's your inheritance.

if you truely loved your father, you would not steal from him.

aren't we suppose to be known by our fruits?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

so tell me ERNEST... do you worry about losing your salvation all the time?

No, I do not worry about it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Let's take a biblical example:

Can a Christian have his father's wife and then boast about it, and still be saved if he has not repented of it?

1Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"There was a brother in the Corinthian church who was living in fornication with his father’s wife (1 Corinthians 5:1). Paul, by inspiration, states that he had “judged†this wayward man (v. 3). Further, he admonished the saints at Corinth to “put away the wicked man from among yourselves†(v. 13), which was a command to exercise church discipline. They were to expel the offender from their fellowship. The design of the discipline was to bring the wayward brother to repentance so that his “spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus†(v. 5; cf. 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15).

The implication is quite plain — if the fornicator did not abandon his evil, he would not be saved in the day of the Lord. If it was impossible for him to be lost, the function/goal of the discipline was misstated.
Here is an interesting thought: can one become so wicked that he is unfit for church fellowship, yet still fit for God’s fellowship?"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1131-can-a-christian-ever-be-lost

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That scripture is speaking of a lifestyle of sin. Not an occasional misstep. Surely you cannot believe that you have not sinned today. Nor could you have repented of all of your sins of omission and commission... My bet is that every night you go to sleep, you have at least one unconfessed sin...

There is a difference between a lost sinner who lives in sin and will not repent of his sins and a Christian who occasionally sins but repents of his sin in order to receive forgiveness. A Christian who steals a horse and keeps that stolen horse thereby not repenting is living is a ongoing state of sinning no different from the lost sinner who will not repent. There is no verse that says there is forgiveness without repentance.

How much can one sin before it does affect his salvation or is there no amount of sinning the Christian can do that has any affect upon his salvation?

1 Jn 1:7 IF (conditional word) the Christians continues (present tense) to walk in the light then Christ's blood continues (present tense) to cleanse away all sins. The the cleansing is conditional and there is no cleansing of sins with the conditional walking -obedience in repenting.

We can makes some comparisons and contrasts:


Lk 1:3,5 Jesus said to repent or perish
Eternal security says one does not have to repent and will not perish.

1 Cor 6:9-11 Paul said the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven
Eternal security says the unrighteous will inherit the kingdom of heaven


Eh 1:4 the Christians is to be blameless
Eternal security says the Christian does not have to be blameless but can even live as a sinner


Eternal security takes the complete opposite position from the bible that one can be a unrepentant sinner and be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

question one answered in other response.
questions 2, 3, and 4 We do every day. And so do you. You should look up the word sanctification.

Are you going to tell me that God will send a new believer to Hell if he should sin and then die before he has a chance to repent? Just say'n...

You must be Pelagian then. You are not a Calvinist with the tone that I am reading.

You're trying to prove that the unrighteous will be saved. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"


Is stealing unrighteousness?

(I'm not Pelegian ether)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am sorry you feel this way, but Paul says that he is a sinner and a saved man. He states that the body is sin but the spirit is saved. Man was born a sinner and will remain a sinner until death. There is no denying this fact. No matter how hard we try we cannot deliver our self from sin, only god can. As I stated before Christ was our sacrifice that paid for our sins past, present and future, all of them. Without this no one would go to Glory. There is no way that you can live a day without sin, nobody could, only Christ was able to. To me repenting or not repenting does not in itself gives us or takes away our salvation, only our faith in Christ gives us this assurance of what we have not of what some might think we could lose.

But you did not deal with the contradictions I presented you:

Paul once wrote "Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ." 1 Cor 11:1. This means if Paul was a chief sinner then Christ was a chief sinner as Paul followed Christ's example. Paul wrote Rom 6:6,11 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " If Paul was a sinner his old man was not crucified and he was not following his owns words in that Christians are not to serve sin and Paul would not be alive to God but alive unto sin.

Psa 1:5 - Isa 1:28 - 1 Pet 4:18 - James 5:20 among other verses say the sinner is lost. How could Paul both be saved and a lost sinner at the same time?

Nowhere ever did Paul say a Christian can live in sin and still be saved. Not only does that idea contradict Paul's own writings but contradicts John's when John wrote "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him" and "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." and "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" and "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth".

If Paul was a sinner then he was not a Christian, his old man of sin had not died, he was alive to sin and not alive to God, he was walking in darkness and not in the truth.

Mark 2:17 " When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. "

Note how the righteous are contrasted from the sinner. Was Paul a lost sinner, a unrighteous person or was he righteous? Cannot be both at the same time.





--There is no verse that says CHrist paid for anyone's sins (past, present or future sins) if that person does not repent of those sins....Lk 13:3,5 repent or perish

--Nowhere did God expect Christians to be perfectly sinless but God does expect Christians to continuously walk in the light whereby all his sins can be continuously cleansed away, 1 Jn 1:7

--There is not a verse that says one will be able to carry just one of their unrepented sins through the pearly gates into heaven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

i have a problem with this.

where is the repentance if one steals a horse and doesn't return it?

He remains a thief until he returns the horse or makes some kind of restitution for the horse. Sinning can be a state one is in and he remains in that state until he repents and leaves it. I can be in the state of New York and I remain in that state until I leave it. Likewise one can be living in a state of adultery or thievery and remain in that state until they leave it by repenting. No one will be saved in their sins.

 

[beardedad]

But you did not deal with the contradictions I presented you:

Paul once wrote "Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ." 1 Cor 11:1. This means if Paul was a chief sinner then Christ was a chief sinner as Paul followed Christ's example. Paul wrote Rom 6:6,11 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " If Paul was a sinner his old man was not crucified and he was not following his owns words in that Christians are not to serve sin and Paul would not be alive to God but alive unto sin.

Psa 1:5 - Isa 1:28 - 1 Pet 4:18 - James 5:20 among other verses say the sinner is lost. How could Paul both be saved and a lost sinner at the same time?

Nowhere ever did Paul say a Christian can live in sin and still be saved. Not only does that idea contradict Paul's own writings but contradicts John's when John wrote "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him" and "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." and "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" and "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth".

If Paul was a sinner then he was not a Christian, his old man of sin had not died, he was alive to sin and not alive to God, he was walking in darkness and not in the truth.

Mark 2:17 " When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. "

Note how the righteous are contrasted from the sinner. Was Paul a lost sinner, a unrighteous person or was he righteous? Cannot be both at the same time.





--There is no verse that says CHrist paid for anyone's sins (past, present or future sins) if that person does not repent of those sins....Lk 13:3,5 repent or perish

--Nowhere did God expect Christians to be perfectly sinless but God does expect Christians to continuously walk in the light whereby all his sins can be continuously cleansed away, 1 Jn 1:7

--There is not a verse that says one will be able to carry just one of their unrepented sins through the pearly gates into heaven.

If you look at 1 Cor 15:3 Paul says that Christ died for our sins. There is no contraditions we are all saved sinners. We are all sinners in the flesh but our souls are saved throgh Jesus death on the cross. Also, we read in I Peter 2:24, "Who Himself bore our sins

in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed." Jesus has personally paid the price for our sins, so that we can be made righteous before God. We read in I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also

suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God." Romans 5:6-10 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man

someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies

we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life" You know what John 3:16 says that all we have to do is believe on him to be saved, there was no other buts given. In all fairness we are

all sin, God hates sin, our salvation is given from God through Christs death on the cross to pay for our sins to God. In all fairness we should the thanking Christ for paying for our sins. If it were not for this nobody would make it. for as Paul states "As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one."

 

[Butch5]

I am sorry you feel this way, but Paul says that he is a sinner and a saved man. He states that the body is sin but the spirit is saved. Man was born a sinner and will remain a sinner until death. There is no denying this fact. No matter how hard we try we cannot deliver our self from sin, only god can. As I stated before Christ was our sacrifice that paid for our sins past, present and future, all of them. Without this no one would go to Glory. There is no way that you can live a day without sin, nobody could, only Christ was able to. To me repenting or not repenting does not in itself gives us or takes away our salvation, only our faith in Christ gives us this assurance of what we have not of what some might think we could lose.

I don't believe Paul is giving an allowance for sin in Romans 7. Additionally, didn't Jesus say, 'go and sin no more?' Why would He say such a thing if Sinners were expected to continue in sin? You also said, "There is no way that you can live a day without sin, nobody could, only Christ was able to." Did He deliver you from sin?

 

[Butch5]

If you look at 1 Cor 15:3 Paul says that Christ died for our sins. There is no contraditions we are all saved sinners. We are all sinners in the flesh but our souls are saved throgh Jesus death on the cross. Also, we read in I Peter 2:24, "Who Himself bore our sins

in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed." Jesus has personally paid the price for our sins, so that we can be made righteous before God. We read in I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also

suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God." Romans 5:6-10 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man

someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies

we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life" You know what John 3:16 says that all we have to do is believe on him to be saved, there was no other buts given. In all fairness we are

all sin, God hates sin, our salvation is given from God through Christs death on the cross to pay for our sins to God. In all fairness we should the thanking Christ for paying for our sins. If it were not for this nobody would make it. for as Paul states "As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one."

John 3:16 doesn't say that one only has to believe in Him, it says the one who believes, "May" not perish. This verse in no way negates any other qualifiers for eternal life. Nor does it establish belief alone as a means of obtaining eternal life.

 

[beardedad]

John 3:16 doesn't say that one only has to believe in Him, it says the one who believes, "May" not perish. This verse in no way negates any other qualifiers for eternal life. Nor does it establish belief alone as a means of obtaining eternal life.

In the King James it is Shall not perish. It is a fact statement there is no may. It is showing that the only way is throught Jesus's death that we obtain eternial life.

 

[beardedad]

I don't believe Paul is giving an allowance for sin in Romans 7. Additionally, didn't Jesus say, 'go and sin no more?' Why would He say such a thing if Sinners were expected to continue in sin? You also said, "There is no way that you can live a day without sin, nobody could, only Christ was able to." Did He deliver you from sin?

He was telling her to go and don't do that again, you know as well as I we cannot be sin free. You can take the man from sin but you cannot take the sin nature out of man. He delivered me from sin but not of sin, I know that I sin every day in some way or another. All I can do is try again the next day but I know that I am still his at the end of the day.

 

[Butch5]

In the King James it is Shall not perish. It is a fact statement there is no may. It is showing that the only way is throught Jesus's death that we obtain eternial life.

Actually, it's not a fact statement. The word translated perish is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood indicates possibility or probability, but not certainty, thus the reason it's translated "may" not perish. If the statement was a fact then it would be in the indicative mood, it's not.

 

[Butch5]

He was telling her to go and don't do that again, you know as well as I we cannot be sin free. You can take the man from sin but you cannot take the sin nature out of man. He delivered me from sin but not of sin, I know that I sin every day in some way or another. All I can do is try again the next day but I know that I am still his at the end of the day.

Does "go and sin no more" mean don't do that particular sin anymore? I believe there is a real danger in Christianity with the belief that we're sinners and were going to sin everyday. Why would a Christian have an expectation of sin? If one expects to sin every day, how does one ever gain a victory over sin? I think Christians put themselves in real danger when they think this way. It lowers one's expectation of self and one's ability to overcome.