Revelation is a Lie?!?

Yes, Jesus will come again. Yes there is a period of the Mark of the Beast, where normal social activity is excluded. Yes, Jesus will stand outside the gates of his own church. Yes, there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Actually, I believe Jesus already has come again, and is among us. The "last days" if you will, come in each generation to test us as Christians, before we are raised again. The "Mark of the Beast" occurs whenever the state takes over completely. It happened under Communism, it happened under Nazis, it is happening again (COVID masks and vaccines). However, the Revelation prophecy is actually a big hoax against Christians by Jews and Romans.
The HyperTexts John of Patmos: Errors, Contradictions and False Prophecies
Hint 1: Much of it is written more like Jewish literature. Case in point, the 30 minutes of silence? Something Jews would know about as it is when the incense is burned in the Temple. (Largely Gentile) Christians would know literally nothing of this, but any Jew would be able to explain it. Ditto for many of the strange prophetic images.
Hint 2: Jesus in Revelation (his name might as well be in scare quotes) is depicted as holding an iron rod, and called a "morning star." That's the name for Lucifer, the false light of the world. Also, the iron rod is a depiction of absolute power. Iron is forged by warlords in weapons of war and destruction. "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors. But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves."
Hint 3: The intense brutality of this 'Jesus' against sinners. Yes, the secular world does some seriously bad stuff, as consequence of their decision to be ruled by kings and not by God. Yet God allowed them to do this. Yes, there may be a breaking point. But this action and its responsibility is to struggle against the "powers and principalities" not "flesh and blood." The state of Babylon will indeed fall, as the state of Israel fell in the Old Testament. Yes, Christians will be put to persecution, time and again. But Jesus said, "And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jesus did not condemn the sinner, he did not even condemn the Pharisee (though he gave them a hard time). In fact, this is why Jesus was betrayed by the crowd, because they expected him to be a liberator or freedom fighter, not someone to forgive others on the cross.
Hint 4: Christians are condemned for having the Mark. Yeah, it is seriously bad news to have a society based around the Mark of the Beast (I heard today of a man who was denied a heart transplant for being unvaccinated). But "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: 'For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." How then can a manmade device separate us? This is what really deceives the elect, that anything on this Earth can make us apart from God. But neither will I swear any loyalty to this false world and its stupid rules.
Hint 5: Likewise, Christians are condemned for unclean food, adultery, or worship of idols. No more than normal. Jesus said on two occasions that what enters a person could not corrupt, only what comes out of a person.
Hint 6.66: Galatians 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!" Yet John (if that is John, since I read 3 John and the writing style seems different) teaches that grace is not sufficient for salvation, but avoiding a Mark, avoiding sin, and being utterly perfect during this time. But all this works theology is not in line with the Gospel. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

So here this "Jesus" comes along, and supposedly nukes all the non-Christians, then there are supposedly 1000 years of "peace", where "Satan" will be locked up, yet somehow there is no grace during this time. No sin of any kind will be allowed, and people will try to die but cannot. I'm probably mixing up passages, but you get the idea. We should trust what we know of Jesus, and trust that Jesus does allow evil in this world, because evil is part of God's plan. One day, suffering will fall away. Not free will. A careful reading of Genesis reveals that knowledge of Good and Evil was an intentional gift, not a sin. There is no possible way that God could have forbidden in by putting it (1) dead center in the garden of Eden, (2) not making the fruit out of reach, or (3) not having anyone or anything to guard it.

It think that's everything I want to say.

 

[ezrider]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The seventy weeks have been fulfilled. We are not waiting on the return of Christ to complete any of the objectives that the Lord had determined upon his people.

To finish the transgression. Done, As Jesus said, it is finished.
To make an end of sins. Done
To make reconciliation for iniquity. Done
To bring in everlasting righteousness. Done
To seal up the vision and prophecy. Done
To anoint the most Holy. Done

The objectives set forth to be completed in the seventy determined weeks have been completed. They are done. Jesus has no more works to do to finish these tasks.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The HE is Jesus and the covenant that HE shall confirm is the NEW COVENANT that was confirmed and sealed with his blood upon the cross.

What is left to be finished? The works have been completed. To say that the 70th week is not finished is to deny the very works that Jesus fulfilled and accomplished on the cross. He who denies Christ has completed his works in the week given to him, denies Christ also. Scripture tells us: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Any spirit who denies Christ has completed his works in the flesh, and must return again to complete the objectives set forth in the seventy weeks; that spirit is of antichrist.

 

[JLB]

The covenant that was made with Moses and the children of Israel (Jacob) has nothing to do with the new covenant.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

To make an end of sins. Done

Sorry but sin is rampant. Sin has not ended.

The final week has yet to begin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The HE is Jesus and the covenant that HE shall confirm is the NEW COVENANT that was confirmed and sealed with his blood upon the cross.

The "he" is certainly not Jesus.

The "he" is the prince who is to come, and he will confirm a covenant for 1 week, which is 7 years.


Jesus did not confirm a covenant for 7 years.



JLB

 

[ezrider]

The "he" is certainly not Jesus.

The "he" is the prince who is to come, and he will confirm a covenant for 1 week, which is 7 years.


Jesus did not confirm a covenant for 7 years.



JLB

The "he" who confirms the covenant with many is the one referred to as Messiah the Prince. Is there another messiah you look for? Was there another covenant that was promised of God that was not fulfilled? The covenant with Christ, the New Covenant, the one he confirmed in his ministry in the flesh before he was cut off, crucified, that covenant is said to be an everlasting covenant. Why should we look for another?

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Acts 5:30-31
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[ezrider]

Sorry but sin is rampant. Sin has not ended.

The final week has yet to begin.


JLB

So because you see sin rampant under the weight of law, you would deny the works of Christ completed upon the cross? Are you the judge of sin against God? Do you sit in HIS seat to declare that sin is rampant in the flesh, therefore Christ did not bring an end to sin?

Isaiah 43:24-26
Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money,
neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices:
but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins,
thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins.
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together:
declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.


Because you possess the knowledge of good and evil that allows you to see sin, and having eyes to see the sin your sight judges it to be rampant. Because you have not seen the end of sin for yourself, you judge the word to say that Christ did not make an end of sin before God with His sacrifice upon the cross.

John 9:39-41
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[JLB]

The "he" who confirms the covenant with many is the one referred to as Messiah the Prince.

No sir.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:26-27


Messiah never confirmed any covenant for “1 Week”, which is a 7 year period.


Furthermore, the “he” refers to the last person mentioned which is “the prince who is to come”.


The seventieth week will begin when the “prince who is to come“ confirms a covenant with many for 1 week.


Please show me in the New Testament where Jesus confirmed a covenant for seven years.



JLB

 

[JLB]

So because you see sin rampant under the weight of law, you would deny the works of Christ completed upon the cross?

I see that sin has certainly not ended.

you would deny the works of Christ completed upon the cross?

You misrepresent what I said by saying something I never stated or implied.


Please don’t violate our TOS again by misrepresenting me or others, as this only stirs up strife and division.




JLB

 

[bulmabriefs144]

JLB decided to PM me something.
I wouldn't have even gotten involved, but then I saw this spammy thing about All Voices Heard on my email.

"I have asked you to please refrain from promoting your theory that the book of Revelation, The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not from God."

Actually, it wasn't just him. Stovebolt also decides to bandwagon bully me. All by PM. Dude, you are administrators. You are not behaving like it, though. They are all talking around me like it's a decision by committee. So, my response.

---

Uhhhh no.

1. Because it isn't. I can quote scripture from Jesus to prove it.
2. Because your request amounts to censorship. Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve it on their own merit, but you are not entitled to tell me what to say, or what not to say.
3. Threatening me with what not to say, is very not Christian of you. In fact, it specifically calls back to JESUS'S OWN WORDS about how we will be brought before the synagogues and other authorities but God will give us words to say. Seems an awful lot like you're one of these "authorities" he spoke of.
4. The Revelation is NOT the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is the Revelation of JOHN. And that is if you can prove John wrote it! John was in his 30s or so when Jesus converted him, and it was written somewhere between 70 AD and 90 AD. He would have been old enough that senility was far more likely than a Revelation from Jesus. That's assuming he wasn't martyred with his brother who was joined with him at the hip. Also, Paul states that anyone who writes something that is a gospel other than the one given to you is under a curse.
Jesus > Paul >>> some guy who claims to be John (but which Martin Luther said had serious doubts about it, and he wasn't the only one! The entire Orthodox church rejected it until the Catholics forced it as part of the canon).

Now about my proof.

Read Matthew 24. Pay close attention to the mentions of signs in heaven. Particularly signs of the sun and moon. Also pay attention to Jesus's other words about how some would not taste death before the coming again. Why then, is there a two thousand year gap? Why then, if it is a clear revelation, is it filled with arcane and incomprehensible symbolism? Why does Jesus appear utterly at odds with the same man who said that he had come not to judge the Earth but to save it? Because... it is from the devil. Only the devil has motive to confuse and sow discord in the church. Only the devil enlists people in leadership roles to prevent this from being spoken about. This should read the Revelation of Satan as Spoken by Someone Calling Himself John. Yes, I can very clearly ignore this warning here about altering the text. The Bible is not the word of God, it is the inspired message written by us fallible humans. But Jesus is the Word of God. And I will speak his Word.

Okay, so what about this signs of the sun and moon? Well, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, these signs are mentioned. In all three of them, there is darkness in the sky. In fact, Matthew 27:45 says "From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land." Let's do basic science here. The average solar eclipse lasts maybe seven minutes for the main event? This was darkness far longer than that. But even if we're gonna assume most of that was setup time or something we have a fundamental problem. It is impossible to have a lunar eclipse during that time.

Could a solar eclipse have occurred when Christ died?

In Luke 23:44-45, we read that when Jesus died, there was a period of darkness. Could a solar eclipse have occurred when Christ died? Find out here.

www.neverthirsty.org

This is because it was on Friday near Passover, which happens during a full moon. Because of the position of the moon during Passover, a lunar eclipse is possible, a solar eclipse is not. This was supernatural darkness. An upheaval of the natural world and the stars. But more than that, Matthew tells us that the graves are opened up, that the dead are raised. This wasn't just Jesus who rose from the dead. This was The Resurrection. Soon after, the Temple fell, and Jews tried to explain why. Enter a group spoken about in Acts, those who wanted the Christians to be circumcised, in other words Jews who had heard of Jesus but were actually heretics. These people conspired to corrupt the church, along with the Romans (both after outright trying to kill Christians). But the plain truth as John (the real one) said, was that when Jesus spoke a prophecy about the temple being destroyed and remade, "But he was speaking about his own body." After a careful read of the other three Gospels, I am inclined to agree. That this John disagrees and instead speaks a Temple destruction allegory means that this John isn't John. Ergo, Revelation of Satan as Spoken by Someone Calling Himself John.

You can feel free not to believe it. What you can't do is try to silence me. Not without showing yourself up as an enemy of a free Church, where people can have denominations, so long as they believe in Christ the Lord.
I will not recant.

What I have written, I have written.

 

[JLB]

Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve it on their own merit, but you are not entitled to tell me what to say, or what not to say.

You can certainly believe what you want to believe, however in this Forum we have guidelines about what you can or can not say.


Here are some examples from our Terms of Service that you agreed to when you became a member.


1.4: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith. (Exodus 20:16)

1.5: No trolling. No flaming or remarks used to intentionally upset members. Intentional disruption of this nature may result in immediate termination of your membership.


1.9: No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material allowed. This includes words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements.

1.10: No spamming or solicitation. Our message boards are for discussions, not the selling of goods or services. All links require a 20 post minimum, including those within signatures.
Business forum exception : approved business and sites may be advertised for a nominal fee. Please contact Stovebolts for approval and pricing.




JLB

 

[bulmabriefs144]

You are misusing your own rules against me.

I am not trolling. I am stating an opinion, then backing up said opinion with other scripture. An actual troll will tell you "This Jesus guy is really stupid, now fight me."

I don't recall using any foul language. But I'm not a prude about language anyway, so I wouldn't pay attention. God gave us words, and the real restriction was using words in anger rather than love. I use my words to tell Christians everywhere that they are creating suffering for themselves by following false doctrines. Imagining being very depressed about the economy or leadership, then being told instead of "These things will pass, God is in charge" that the devil is in charge, that Jesus will come and punish the unbelievers, that we need to avoid the Mark of the Beast, etc. Do you know how disquieting such a message is? Because I do. You are basically telling people that if they don't feel all that worthy, not that "nothing will separate us from the love of God" but that salvation depends on avoiding adultery or witchcraft or heck anyone who misses a memo about getting a mark of their hand is doomed no matter how much they love Jesus. Having studied the gospels, I am providing a dissenting opinion to what I thought months ago was really important but now regard as rubbish, as Philippians puts it.

I don't see how I am misrepresenting another member either. You two were literally on my PM telling me that everyone is agreed then, that what I said is wrong. Uhhhh no, actually, Martin Luther, the Orthodox Church for quite awhile, and several members of the early church had grave misgivings about the book. First of all, you two are Admins or Mods or I didn't really pay close attention, and shouldn't be bullying a member for their opinions (that's right, none of the rules you cited gives you the right to behave this way, but a very loose and distorted definition of spam... I can show you spam on my own forum, I have a good sense of what it looks like).

And I'm not selling you anything.

So ummm, yeah, I have not one but at least two Admins/Mods on my case for doing nothing but heterodoxy. Let me as you a question, have you ever known a calm person who believed in the Revelation? If it is such good news, why does everyone who believes in it seem strung out and holding up "The End is Near" signs? Maybe because it is not good news. It is at odds with the prevailing message of angels to "do not be afraid." More like The Fly's quote " Be afraid, be very very afraid. " But should we be afraid? Or should we toss this book in the dumpster and try reading the Bible without it. It turned out that I had to toss a few moee books out once I started, but contrary to the opinion that there would be "nothing left" there was actually quite a bit left. Moses and the Law, Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood, Esther, a prophecy of God's time of redemption, and the redemption fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the early church and its struggles with false beliefs. Some of these I had to cut for length because I was binding my own book. But the vast majority is good news.

 

[Goldwing]

I have been on vacation and off line since March 28, and there has been much input on the seventy wks., of Dan. 9. I would like to share the following insights which in my humble opinion makes more sense and brings harmony to the prophecies. So please consider it.

During Israel’s captivity, God spoke to three prophets: Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel. God gave Jeremiah and Ezekiel wonderful insight into His future plans for Israel. (Plan A) God wanted Israel to listen to His prophets and understand what wonderful plans He had for His people if they would cooperate with Him. At the same time, God also spoke to Daniel, but He gave Daniel a very different prophetic schematic which is called “Plan B.” Plan B is a prophetic schematic built on the premise that if Israel failed to fulfill their covenant with God, God would abandon Israel as His trustees and Jerusalem would be totally destroyed. God gave conflicting views of the future to these three prophets for a reason; the future of the world would be determined by Israel’s behavior during the seventy weeks. If Israel cooperated with God during the seventy weeks by meeting the terms and conditions set before them, Plan B would not occur. Daniel’s visions and prophecies would be forever sealed up (remain meaningless). On the other hand, if Israel continued to rebel against His covenant during the seventy weeks, God would abandon them. He would start over by redefining the offspring of Abraham10 as believers in Christ and Plan B would proceed unconditionally.11

As we study this prophecy, please keep three matters in mind: First, Plan A (the seventy weeks) and Plan B (the 2,300 days) start with the same date to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. This was necessary because only one plan would be implemented. Gabriel told Daniel, “Seventy weeks are determined or decreed for your people . . .” The Hebrew word for determined or de- creed is chathak and it means to cut off; as in cutting off a piece of ribbon or cloth from a larger piece. In other words, the seventy weeks, which equals 490 years, are cut off of a larger time period – the 2,300 days. We know that Gabriel is talking about the 2,300 days because Gabriel said to Daniel in verse 23, “As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vi- sion.” Gabriel is talking about the vision previously given to Daniel recorded in Daniel 8.

Second, nothing is written in Prophecy 3 indicating when the 2,300 days would begin or end because God was not finished with the vision in Prophecy 3. The vision in Prophecy 3 was deliberately left incomplete for about eleven years! Just before the seventy years in Babylon ended, God wanted to reveal a very important message to His people through Daniel. So, Gabriel was sent to Daniel with some very important words, to give them hope.
Dan. 9:21-23
While I was still in prayer,Gabriel, the man I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Daniel learned that Jerusalem would be restored and rebuilt. Seventy weeks after a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, Messiah would appear. Of course, there was a caveat. By starting two different prophetic time periods with the same decree, God hung the destiny of the world on Israel’s behavior. If Israel cooperated, Plan A would be fulfilled and the book of Daniel would have remained forever sealed. If Israel rebelled, Plan B would be initiated and after 2,300 years expired, the horn, which is Lucifer, would physically appear out of nowhere at the appointed time of the end.

Third, excluding the book of Daniel, most people fail to realize that the entire Old Testament (Plan A) says nothing about a Second Coming. There would not have been any need for a Second Coming if Israel had met the terms and conditions set before them in Plan A. According to Plan A, Jesus would have come to Earth and begun establishing the kingdom of God on Earth in A.D. 27. In anticipation of the ful llment of Plan A, God sent John the Baptist12 ahead of Jesus to announce this marvelous truth! If Plan A had been fulfilled, all of the Old Testament prophecies would make perfect sense just as they read! The history of mankind after the seventieth week would have been entirely different if only Israel had welcomed Messiah.13

When Daniel humbled himself according to the conditions presented in the covenant and interceded on behalf of his people,14 God was pleased to honor Daniel and He remembered His covenant with Israel. God returned Israel to His land.15 God granted the nation of Israel a final opportunity to repent and fulfill the trusteeship for which He called them out of Egypt.16
Dan. 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint he most Holy.[Christ]

{24} Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy weeks are ‘cut off’ of the 2,300 days for the benefit of your people. During this time, God will do everything possible to help Israel fulfill their trusteeship. In return, they must cooperate with the Holy Spirit and be transformed into a people who love God supremely and their neighbors as them- selves. Gabriel warned, “Israel must stop rebelling against God’s ways (finish transgression), your people must live righteously (put an end to deliberate and de ant sin), your people must provide atonement (restitution) for wickedness as God requires (atone for your wrong doing), your people must purify their hearts and minds to bring in everlasting righteousness, and if they do, they will have the joy of anointing the Holy One of Israel. If your people will do these things, the visions and prophecies found in this book (containing Plan B) will be sealed up and never come to pass.”
Dan. 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment
to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

{25} “About eighty years from now, a Persian king, having the name Artaxerxes, will issue a decree in the seventh year of his reign17 to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. God will move on the king’s heart and make it possible for Israel to return to their home- land in a year of Jubilee.18 His decree will be issued on or about Nisan 1 during the Sunday year, 457 B.C. Ezra, a priest of God, will leave Babylon to go to Jerusalem on Nisan 12.19 Even though four decrees will be given to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, only one decree will be given in a Jubilee year.20 Watch for it because this decree will start the seventy weeks and the 2,300 days. After King Artaxerxes issues the decree in 457 B.C., one complete Jubilee cycle of seven weeks (49 years) will pass, then another sixty- two weeks (434 years) will pass, and finally, the seventieth week will arrive. The seventieth week will begin on Nisan 1, A.D. 27, a Sunday year in God’s calendar. During the fall of the year in A.D. 27, John will baptize Messiah and His ministry will begin.21 “Your beloved city, Jerusalem, will be reconstructed, but during troublous times. The Lord will use a high priest named Joshua and a king named Zerubbabel to rebuild the city.22 During Israel’s exile in Babylon, warlords have occupied the land of Judah and naturally, they will do everything possible to keep Israel from rebuilding, but the city and the temple will be rebuilt – not by human prowess, but through God’s enabling Holy Spirit.23

 

[Goldwing]

Dan. 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

{26} “Regrettably, your people, Daniel, will not comply with God’s covenant. When Messiah arrives, they will ridicule Him and reject His teaching. He will speak the words which the Father gives Him and the leaders of your people will be unwilling to listen to the Word of God. Messiah will be murdered. He will be cut down by His own people. Because of stubborn and persistent rebellion, Israel will bring down God’s wrath upon their own heads. According to the terms and conditions set forth in His covenant with Israel,24 God will send the Romans against Jerusalem and they will destroy His temple. Rome will utterly destroy the nation of Israel in A.D. 70. No one will be able to prevent it. Destruction will come upon your people like a mighty fiood. Wars and desolation will trouble the city of Jerusalem until the end of the world, and from time to time, the city will be reduced to ruins. This has been decreed. everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan. 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

{27} “Messiah will appear, right on time.25 As the Lamb of God, He will reconcile the world to God26 and confirm the covenant of salvation first given to Adam and Eve.27 Messiah will die in the middle year of the seventieth week, which is a Wednesday year, A.D. 30. Jesus will bring the Levitical laws and the sacrificial system with its obligations and animal sacrifices to an end.28 A few years before Messiah begins His ministry, King Herod will lavish great wealth on the temple in Jerusalem to win the favor of the Jews. But the Romans will burn the temple and destroy the city in A.D. 70. They will pull every stone in the temple apart to remove the melted gold.29 God has decreed that the second temple shall not stand and a third temple will never be rebuilt on Mt. Zion.”

The year of Messiah’s death is important for several reasons: First, the death of Jesus aligns A.D. 30 with a Wednesday year. Because this alignment is beyond dispute, 457 B.C. becomes a Sunday year. The year 457 B.C. also aligns with the year of Jubilee in Hezekiah’s day (702 B.C.), again emphasizing 457 B.C. as a Jubilee year. Second, the year of Messiah’s baptism is beyond dispute. A.D. 27 is a Sunday year, the first year of the seventieth week. Finally, the decree issued by Artaxerxes was issued on or about Nisan 1, 457 B.C. Because the seventy weeks are cut off of the 2,300 days, the books of record were opened and the cleansing of Heaven’s temple began on or about Nisan 1, A.D. 1844. Bible history reveals that Israel did not reform during the seventy weeks granted to them. Thus, God abandoned Plan A and Plan B was implemented. Plan B is based on a new covenant and the books of Daniel and Revelation contain prophecies and promises for Plan B. Merging Plan A prophecies with Plan B prophecies produces insurmountable confusion because both plans are separate and distinct. Soon, the Great Tribulation will begin, and when it does, the judgment of the living will begin.30

 

[JLB]

I am not trolling. I am stating an opinion, then backing up said opinion with other scripture. An actual troll will tell you "This Jesus guy is really stupid, now fight me."

I don't recall using any foul language.

I gave you some examples of things that are not allowed here.


This is a private forum with guidelines.



That’s my only point.




JLB

 

[christian1724]

Example: many Christians think that literal Israelites will make up the 144,000 of (Rev. 7), this will not be the case, because Israel even after three and a half years from Christ death , which marked the end of the seventy weeks, still would not except Christ as the Son of God.

I think you are confusing Jews with Israelites. It is a very common mistake among Christians throughout the ages. It also tends to eliminate the possibility of understanding prophecy. Yes, true Jews are Israelites, but only a fraction of Israelites are Jews.

Oh wow, my wife and I just saw a Bald Eagle perched in a tree outside our window!

 

[christian1724]

Furthermore, the “he” refers to the last person mentioned which is “the prince who is to come”.

I'll have to disagree with you here, JLB.
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many...". This is the same covenant as mentioned earlier in the chapter (verse 4).

Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

This chapter is about Daniels prayer to God for the redemption of His covenant people and the confirming of that covenant. God responds through Gabriel with a semi-detailed response concerning the arrival of His Savior to His covenant people. The covenant keeper is Jesus.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

If you have a good argument against this, I'd like to hear it.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually, it wasn't just him. Stovebolt also decides to bandwagon bully me. All by PM. Dude, you are administrators. You are not behaving like it, though.

This is the first time I have ever saw your name. I do not know who else PM'd you, but it wasn't me.

 

[JLB]

This is the same covenant as mentioned earlier in the chapter (verse 4).

And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. Daniel 9:4-6


Which covenant would Daniel be referring to here?



Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

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[christian1724]

Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Which covenant would Daniel be referring to here?

The context of the chapter concerning the mercy for sins and the salvation brought by Messiah the Prince along with verse 27 should be a best answer for that.​

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

But I think a better question would be: If the 'he' of verse 27 is a prince of a people to come (an anti-christ) then what "covenant" is he confirming/strengthening?

So if it comes down to either:

- the confirming of a previously unmentioned/unknown covenant made by a coming anti-christ​

OR

- the confirming of a covenant mentioned a few verses earlier​

I think the more obvious answer will fit the subject and context of the whole chapter.