Russia and Israel, now what?

[Dorothy Mae]

So if Revelation is all in the past... maybe you could point me to the references for some past events that they didn't teach in school.

I did not say it is all in the past. The Resurrection and Judgement have not yet occurred. Jesus has not yet returned bodily.

When(after 70 AD) did...

1. the Sun become black as sackcloth? Rev 6:12
2. the Moon become as blood? Rev 6:12
3. the wind stop blowing anywhere on Earth? Rev 7:1
4. it rain hail, fire and blood at the same time? Rev 8:7
5. 1/3 of the trees get burnt up? Rev 8:7
6. all the grasses on Earth get burnt up? Rev 8:7
7. 1/3 of the salt water on Earth become blood? Rev 8:8
8. 1/3 of all sea creatures died? Rev 8:8
9. 1/3 of all fresh water on Earth become bitter and kill men? Rev 8:10-11
10. all the celestial bodies (sun, moon, stars) go dark for 8 hours? Rev 8:12

I can answer these from elsewhere in the scripture seeing that this is a very Hebrew book following the pattern of the Hebrew writings. The terms regarding the Sun and Moon and stars are used to describe when God judges a nation and are used elsewhere in the OT referring to nations God was about to judge and destroy. These scriptures do not refer to the time of the events in the book of Revelation but other nations:
Isaiah 13:6-13 (fulfilled already)
Isaiah 19 destruction of Egypt...coming in clouds
Isaiah 34:3-5 against Edom
Jeremiah 4: destruction of Jerusalem in his day again, going in clouds
Ezekiel 30-32 against Egypt again coming in clouds
Ezekiel 32:6-8 sun and moon references
Amos 8:9 sun darkened against Israel

None of this refer to the heavenly bodies but sun and moon and starts mean the authorities that keep a society at peace and in safety. "Coming in clouds" is God's judgement which is why Jesus told the jewish leaders that they personally would see him "coming in the clouds" which they knew meant he would judge them. They knew it did not mean a heavenly elevator. (Acts 1:11 describes his actual coming again and it will be the same as he left, peaceful.)

Now regarding the verses that refer to the Earth, the actual word is "land" not planet. You would have to read Josephus' description of the killing that the armies did on their way to Jerusalem and it pretty much fulfills that description. Some of the waters became so bloody from the bodies it was undrinkable and stank. The inhabitants knew trouble was coming not because of messengers but because of the number of bodies floating down the rivers.

Those are the first 10 questions that you would have to have an answer for if these things truly are in the past.
Seeing as these things are not small events... and we have records from the 1st century... it should be recorded and match perfectly in every aspect. Such is the nature of prophecy.
So if one of these has not happened yet then it is still a future event. That is how I see it.

These things happened as described and it was horrible. Josephus recorded it. But it was for Jerusalem, not the whole world. What has the world done to deserve that? What did Israel do? They murdered the prophets sent to her and killed the Messiah. God judged them and destroyed them for that as the blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zachariah was required of them as Jesus said. They actually cursed themselves and their children at the trail and that curse came upon them. There are tons of verses that show that these events were the judgement of God described in Revelation that came upon those living then.

This list is just the first 10 things that should be obvious... There are many more and they all need answers.

There are answers in history. I mean, you can of course believe it is all still future. I am not compelling anyone to accept this view. But it would be wise to at least understand a view you reject. I understand your view completely. Understanding is not agreeing but not understanding and still rejecting is foolish.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Unable to attack Kiev?





JLB

The city of Kiev resisted the whole of the Russian forces. I mean one little city was stronger than the Russian army. Is this news to you?

 

[dwb001]

I did not say it is all in the past. The Resurrection and Judgement have not yet occurred. Jesus has not yet returned bodily.

I can answer these from elsewhere in the scripture seeing that this is a very Hebrew book following the pattern of the Hebrew writings. The terms regarding the Sun and Moon and stars are used to describe when God judges a nation and are used elsewhere in the OT referring to nations God was about to judge and destroy. These scriptures do not refer to the time of the events in the book of Revelation but other nations:
Isaiah 13:6-13 (fulfilled already)
Isaiah 19 destruction of Egypt...coming in clouds
Isaiah 34:3-5 against Edom
Jeremiah 4: destruction of Jerusalem in his day again, going in clouds
Ezekiel 30-32 against Egypt again coming in clouds
Ezekiel 32:6-8 sun and moon references
Amos 8:9 sun darkened against Israel

None of this refer to the heavenly bodies but sun and moon and starts mean the authorities that keep a society at peace and in safety. "Coming in clouds" is God's judgement which is why Jesus told the jewish leaders that they personally would see him "coming in the clouds" which they knew meant he would judge them. They knew it did not mean a heavenly elevator. (Acts 1:11 describes his actual coming again and it will be the same as he left, peaceful.)

Now regarding the verses that refer to the Earth, the actual word is "land" not planet. You would have to read Josephus' description of the killing that the armies did on their way to Jerusalem and it pretty much fulfills that description. Some of the waters became so bloody from the bodies it was undrinkable and stank. The inhabitants knew trouble was coming not because of messengers but because of the number of bodies floating down the rivers.

These things happened as described and it was horrible. Josephus recorded it. But it was for Jerusalem, not the whole world. What has the world done to deserve that? What did Israel do? They murdered the prophets sent to her and killed the Messiah. God judged them and destroyed them for that as the blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zachariah was required of them as Jesus said. They actually cursed themselves and their children at the trail and that curse came upon them. There are tons of verses that show that these events were the judgement of God described in Revelation that came upon those living then.

There are answers in history. I mean, you can of course believe it is all still future. I am not compelling anyone to accept this view. But it would be wise to at least understand a view you reject. I understand your view completely. Understanding is not agreeing but not understanding and still rejecting is foolish.

So when in doubt you redefine terms...
Just answer my question... 1-10.
Not general answers that sweep everything together... but one by one.
You said it was all history... so you don't even believe what you are saying.

You are trying to say that in 70AD the book of Revelation was future... then to buoy your claim you point to OT references? If it was fulfilled in Isaiah's time... then it isn't future in John's time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So when in doubt you redefine terms...

This is a personal attack, but I will graciously ignore it. I gave you the scriptures that show that this is what that means. The sun, moon and stars were predicted to "fall" or turn "red" or "no longer shine" to nations in the past and those heavenly bodies did not fall out of the sky. They are still there. It is actually, if you think about it, a really silly interpretation. If the sun turns black, all life on the planet is over and this happened in the past if one believes the Bible.

Just answer my question... 1-10.

I did. You do not seem to like the answer. Well, what can I do? If a man does not want to understand positions he does not personally hold, no one can make him. But I have come to understand why the Scripture talks about rendering ears unable to hear and eyes unable to see.

Not general answers that sweep everything together... but one by one.

Why, the references are together. What difference does it make? Look up the scriptures and you will see similar language referring to the heavenly bodies in metaphors that mean a melt down of societal order. Same with "coming in clouds" means God's final judgement, not Jesus taking a cumulous ride.

You said it was all history... so you don't even believe what you are saying.

Sigh! It happened in 70AD in detail which, interestingly enough, a historian was accompanying the Roman army and wrote it all down. He was not a Christian and had never read Revelation. He just wrote down what happened.

You are trying to say that in 70AD the book of Revelation was future... then to buoy your claim you point to OT references? If it was fulfilled in Isaiah's time... then it isn't future in John's time.

OK, let me try to sort this out. This imagery was used whenever God determined to wipe out an evil people. It happened before 70AD to Egypt and other nations. That same Hebrew imagery was used again to signify the final destruction of those who had rejected and pierced and killed the Son of God. It will never happen again.

The theology that teaches it is eminent (Dispensationalism) was embraced by the Americans but otherwise not generally known to the church. But if you do not want to learn anything else, then just move on. No one is forcing you to learn what others believe that differs from your thinking.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You know Niblo, it is disappointing to see that so few can intellectually engage in conversations with others whose views do not agree with their own. The ad hominem answer is so common, I despair of anyone in N. America being able to treat others with respect even though they disagree. It seems like belittling and name calling is the only weapon in their arsenal of defending what they think. Is it because they simply swallowed the view whole without "chewing" on it? I don't know. When I first heard the futurist view, I wondered as a teen, how fleeing Jerusalem is going to be of help to me since I lived in California. And I wondered at that time, where is one to flee to if the whole world is experiencing this terror. Even then I saw that few has having holes but there was nothing else offered at that time. And it was said that Jesus was coming back any day now....that was 50 years ago.

 

[dwb001]

This is a personal attack, but I will graciously ignore it. I gave you the scriptures that show that this is what that means. The sun, moon and stars were predicted to "fall" or turn "red" or "no longer shine" to nations in the past and those heavenly bodies did not fall out of the sky. They are still there. It is actually, if you think about it, a really silly interpretation. If the sun turns black, all life on the planet is over and this happened in the past if one believes the Bible.

Dated after 70AD... no you didn't answer that for me.

I did. You do not seem to like the answer. Well, what can I do? If a man does not want to understand positions he does not personally hold, no one can make him. But I have come to understand why the Scripture talks about rendering ears unable to hear and eyes unable to see.

What was you answer to question 1?
What was you answer to question 2?
What was you answer to question 3?
What was you answer to question 4?
What was you answer to question 5?
What was you answer to question 6?
What was you answer to question 7?
What was you answer to question 8?
What was you answer to question 9?
What was you answer to question 10?

Why, the references are together. What differencWhat was you answer to question 1?e does it make? Look up the scriptures and you will see similar language referring to the heavenly bodies in metaphors that mean a melt down of societal order. Same with "coming in clouds" means God's final judgement, not Jesus taking a cumulous ride.

Similar language does not show that it happened historically.
No you have not made a point that addresses my actual question.

Sigh! It happened in 70AD in detail which, interestingly enough, a historian was accompanying the Roman army and wrote it all down. He was not a Christian and had never read Revelation. He just wrote down what happened.

So where is that reference?
I did ask for your proofs.. which historian? Which book? Which chapter... etc?

OK, let me try to sort this out. This imagery was used whenever God determined to wipe out an evil people. It happened before 70AD to Egypt and other nations. That same Hebrew imagery was used again to signify the final destruction of those who had rejected and pierced and killed the Son of God. It will never happen again.

So? I am asking for the historical record that you are referencing that shows that these events happened.
If you don't provide a proof then how can you expect me to take your statements seriously?

The theology that teaches it is eminent (Dispensationalism) was embraced by the Americans but otherwise not generally known to the church. But if you do not want to learn anything else, then just move on. No one is forcing you to learn what others believe that differs from your thinking.

What is eminent? What is the "it" in that statement?
Why would you assume that I do not want to learn?

11. When in the 1st century did the Euphrates River dry up? Rev 16:12
12. When did every mountain become unable to be found? Rev 16:20
13. Are there any islands left in the world? Rev 16:20

Need I go on...
Please provide itemised answers with references(author,book,chapter and verse) for questions 1-13.
If you do not... then I will assume you are not able to back up your claims.
Remember to itemise your answers... that will help everyone who has questions to verify any answers.
Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

I mean the scriptures obviously speak of the middle east no matter what one's eschatology is. It names cities and areas that are in that part of the world and are not allegories. All think "Jerusalem" for example, means that city.

Sure. But what does eschatology have to do with it?
Let's leave it at this since I really have no interest in the end times.
Thanks though!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sure. But what does eschatology have to do with it?
Let's leave it at this since I really have no interest in the end times.
Thanks though!

You can move on but it’s a subject that interests a lot of people.

 

[eddif]

You were the bell.

Ok generation will not pass away.

From Moses to John (the law was taught).

That is a generation or age to me.

Revelation is showing what will happen in the future to those who are alive at that time.

Prophecy is a done deed at the time it is given by God.. Has it been fulfilled? In the mind of God what he speaks will be done. When Revelation is read it is as good as done.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I knew I was half asleep.
Revelation, as a book, is about Jesus Christ.
His birth, fleeing to Egypt to escape death (as an infant), other points.

Revelation contains prophetic utterances that will happen in the future. Next time I think I am half asleep I will wait till I am more awake.

Thanks Dorothy Mae i really blew that.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dated after 70AD... no you didn't answer that for me.

No, John was sentenced under Nero same time Paul and Peter were killed in 60 something AD. Those events described as soon to take place, took place soon.

What was you answer to question 1?
What was you answer to question 2?
What was you answer to question 3?
What was you answer to question 4?
What was you answer to question 5?
What was you answer to question 6?
What was you answer to question 7?
What was you answer to question 8?
What was you answer to question 9?
What was you answer to question 10?

Similar language does not show that it happened historically.
No you have not made a point that addresses my actual question.

Sorry, I guess you are unaware of the events of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. The fulfillment of the removal of governing authorities occurred in the city as the three different groups fought for power. There was chaos and unbelievable blood shed and hunger and horror. It would be better to read about the events that happened during the destruction of Judea from the Roman armies. The blood ran high, food was scarce as Revelation described. The seas surrounding were filled with bodies and turned bloody which I already answered.

So where is that reference?
I did ask for your proofs.. which historian? Which book? Which chapter... etc?

Read about the destruction of Jerusalem by Josephus. It is too long for me to quote as it is pages and pages of horror. You can find on internet teaching on these events that are not doubted to have happened.

So? I am asking for the historical record that you are referencing that shows that these events happened.

Josephus' recording. Interesting enough, the first century christians thought the city being initially surrounded by armies WAS the fulfillment of Jesus' prophesy and left Jerusalem and thereby no Christians perished in that horrible time. None. They thought those events fulfilled the prophesy in the first part of Matthew 24 referring to the end of the Jewish age.

If you don't provide a proof then how can you expect me to take your statements seriously?

Read the history of the fall of Jerusalem.

What is eminent? What is the "it" in that statement?
Why would you assume that I do not want to learn?

11. When in the 1st century did the Euphrates River dry up? Rev 16:12
12. When did every mountain become unable to be found? Rev 16:20
13. Are there any islands left in the world? Rev 16:20

Those are all metaphors. I mean do you really believe the Great Britain, Ireland, Hawaii, Japan, and all islands with all their inhabitants are suddenly going to whoosh away and all those innocent people just die? Do you not know that those are metaphors? God is described as having wings. Do you think he is a kind of bird?

Need I go on...
Please provide itemised answers with references(author,book,chapter and verse) for questions 1-13.
If you do not... then I will assume you are not able to back up your claims.
Remember to itemise your answers... that will help everyone who has questions to verify any answers.
Thanks

The descriptions in scripture are not itemized as you require or you will not believe. The scriptures in Revelation or even the books of the Bible are not in chronological order as written or even as they occurred. I do not expect you to believe me from one post as it turns your eschatology on its ear and it is quite the experience dropping the doom and gloom futurism where believers fight about Jesus delivering them before the Great Tribulation (which is never described as that but only time of great tribulation) or afterwards. If you read the scriptures I provide, study to show yourself approved, you will see those terms are used to describe God's judgement. If you read about what happened in Judea in 70AD, you will see that there is a match same as the events surrounding Jesus birth, which is not itemized in the OT but scattered, you will see that there is a match. Jesus said the temple would be destroyed in Matthew 24 and listed the signs preceding that event. Those are a match for Daniel and Revelation, but it takes some study to see this and that is beyond the space provided here.

 

[eddif]

Something like that.

But in the first half of the last week of the Devil's world, the false messiah will manifest himself like Christ, like a lamb as is written, in fact a false Christ, course, an ESOTERIC, and kabbalistic, and SPIRITIST Christ, a false lamb, and he will work (in the first half of the last week) as a prophet as was in the Old Testament, for us a false prophet, but for he himself he is a prophet of the Jews and they will receive him as a prophet, something like this, since the beginning of his manifestation. The two horns reveal his origin, his roots, by the way, the Jews would never accept a prophet who was not a Jew, of course.

Now see, to incorporate and merge Catholicism and Judaism-iron and clay-when the false prophet gives his Power, and his Throne (in Jerusalem), and great Authority to the Beast of sea, the Pope(I have said this countless times), and the Pope (the next one to be elected) be enthroned in Jerusalem by the false prophet (for the time being as a prophet) until the end of the first half of the last week, it will occur that and in that fusion the Beast of the sea, the Papacy through the Pope, the so-called prince of the RCC, will have linked to its religious structure the 10 horns and their 10 diadems, symbolically the 10 tribes of Israel and respective titles of nobility, biblically 10 princes of each tribe. And in that time still to come (UNDERSTAND) the dragon will have dominated worldwide Catholicism as a whole, that is, the 7 heads of the Beast of the sea; then the dragon will exercise all the power of the first Beast-the Papacy/the Pope- before him, as follow:

Revelation 13:12-14

12 And he (the esoteric, and kabbalistic and spiritist Beast of earth like a lamb, a false lamb) exerciseth all the power of the first Beast (the Beast of sea, a Gentile Beast) before him, and causeth the earth (earth here is Israel) and them which dwell therein to worship the first Beast (the Beast of sea-GREAT DELUSION), whose deadly wound was (will be) healed.

13 And he (the esoteric, and kabbalistic and spiritist Beast of earth like a lamb, a false lamb) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth(Israel) by the means of those (SPIRITIST) miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the Beast (in the sight of the Beast of sea who was ENTHRONED in Jerusalem by the false prophet ) ; saying to them that dwell on the earth(Israel), that they should make an image to the Beast(image of the Pope), which had the wound by a Sword, and did live. (The Sword is the Word of GOD, self-executing)

15 And he (the esoteric, and kabbalistic and spiritist Beast of earth like a lamb, a false lamb) has power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed (in LITERAL fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 to 23. (You know, but check it again. Will be terrible, very very terrible).

Furthermore, the court which is without the temple will be given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months when the Pope be enthroned in Israel by the false prophet.

Still in the first haalf of the last week, the Jews will worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the Beast(unto the Beast of sea): and they worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make WAR with him? (Michael is able-Revelation 12). And there was given unto him(unto the Beast of sea, so-called prince of the RCC) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.(Revelation 11:2, when Jerusalem be trodden by the Gentiles)
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God(against JESUS, evidently, antichrist), to blaspheme his NAME, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was(will be) given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth(Israel) shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear - Revelation 13:4 to 9.

All SATANIC events above described will occur in the first half of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27, and once finished the first half of the week, the false prophet will replace the Pope which was enthroned before and now, IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE LAST WEEK, he will sit in his throne as God, showing himself that he is the only God, and he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, and having he empowered himself with the incorporation of his religious and SATANIC MONSTER called Roman Catholic Church, he will also say that HE IS THE MESSIAH and is God. So, Revelation 13:11-18 will LITERALLY fulfill, and the great harlot, the Roman Catholic Church will be anihilated as a whole until the END, and Revelation 18 will LITERALLY be fulfilled.

As was prophesied by Daniel : From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. HERE the sacrifice of JESUS on the cross which has lasted in these last 2,000 years-730.000 days-until the current time, it will be taken out of the way; The Dispensation of the New Testament, the second Covenant, finished for ever.

- Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. The day 1.335 is the day of JESUS's return. Alleluia! - The millenial God's Kingdom begins - Revelation 11:15 to 18. take a look;

- Satan is laid hold, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deceives the whole world, he will be bound a thousand years into the bottomless pit, and will be shut up, and a seal put in him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:

To the only Wise God our Savior, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings(kings made by Him) and LORD of lords

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, ... Luke 13:v.24-25.

Get ready

You may not choose to answer this in open forum.

Do you buy into?:

Jesus and the Mysteries of Kabbalah - Jews for Jesus

This mystical strand of Jewish theology has many surprising resonances with ideas seen in the New Testament—ideas often thought to be un-Jewish.

jewsforjesus.org

I find reasons to accept portions of this organization, as much as some denominations.

True Jews are learning just like grafted in Gentiles. The one new man is spiritual..

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[dwb001]

No, John was sentenced under Nero same time Paul and Peter were killed in 60 something AD. Those events described as soon to take place, took place soon.

Sorry to be off on your timeline by 10 years.
Still you provide no answers.

Sorry, I guess you are unaware of the events of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea. The fulfillment of the removal of governing authorities occurred in the city as the three different groups fought for power. There was chaos and unbelievable blood shed and hunger and horror. It would be better to read about the events that happened during the destruction of Judea from the Roman armies. The blood ran high, food was scarce as Revelation described. The seas surrounding were filled with bodies and turned bloody which I already answered.

But you provide no references... so maybe you are making it all up.
I asked for an itemised response and you failed to meet the basic expections.

Read about the destruction of Jerusalem by Josephus. It is too long for me to quote as it is pages and pages of horror. You can find on internet teaching on these events that are not doubted to have happened.

Which book of Josephus? Antiquities? Wars? What chapter? I didn't ask for a quote... only a reference.
And you fail again to provide any reference.

Josephus' recording. Interesting enough, the first century christians thought the city being initially surrounded by armies WAS the fulfillment of Jesus' prophesy and left Jerusalem and thereby no Christians perished in that horrible time. None. They thought those events fulfilled the prophesy in the first part of Matthew 24 referring to the end of the Jewish age.

Good for them... maybe they(like others on these forums) were wrong.

Read the history of the fall of Jerusalem.

I have... but which one? There are more than a few books about history you know.

Those are all metaphors. I mean do you really believe the Great Britain, Ireland, Hawaii, Japan, and all islands with all their inhabitants are suddenly going to whoosh away and all those innocent people just die? Do you not know that those are metaphors? God is described as having wings. Do you think he is a kind of bird?

Not metaphors unless you can prove that.
Yes I believe very much that all islands and mountains will be removed.
Are you saying that God lied about His appearance?

The descriptions in scripture are not itemized as you require or you will not believe. The scriptures in Revelation or even the books of the Bible are not in chronological order as written or even as they occurred. I do not expect you to believe me from one post as it turns your eschatology on its ear and it is quite the experience dropping the doom and gloom futurism where believers fight about Jesus delivering them before the Great Tribulation (which is never described as that but only time of great tribulation) or afterwards. If you read the scriptures I provide, study to show yourself approved, you will see those terms are used to describe God's judgement. If you read about what happened in Judea in 70AD, you will see that there is a match same as the events surrounding Jesus birth, which is not itemized in the OT but scattered, you will see that there is a match. Jesus said the temple would be destroyed in Matthew 24 and listed the signs preceding that event. Those are a match for Daniel and Revelation, but it takes some study to see this and that is beyond the space provided here.

I itemised them... so answer my itemised list.
You do understand you are assuming much about other peoples arguments and thus you are contradicting yourself.

Roughly quoting you... "there is nothing called the Great Tribulation but there is a thing called the time of great tribulation"... And there is nothing called the Trinity in the Bible... nor does the Bible preach against homosexuality because the word isn't in the Bible.
These are silly arguments and make the person expounding them look foolish.

Why do you refer to the OT when the point is John was writing prophecy. So you should be looking to history for the confirmation, or I could just say that John was copying the OT so that his writings looked to be more prophetic than they actually were.

Much study is NOT needed. Maybe just understand how Revelation is different from all other books of the Bible and you might get the subtle differences.
Much study leads to gnostic views of the Bible and that leads quickly to error.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You may not choose to answer this in open forum.

Do you buy into?:

Jesus and the Mysteries of Kabbalah - Jews for Jesus

This mystical strand of Jewish theology has many surprising resonances with ideas seen in the New Testament—ideas often thought to be un-Jewish.

jewsforjesus.org

I find reasons to accept portions of this organization, as much as some denominations.

True Jews are learning just like grafted in Gentiles. The one new man is spiritual..

Mississippi redneck
eddif

It’s amazing how many futurists spin long detailed accounts of the future filling endless books that are outdated a few years later as world events changed but didn’t lead to what was so carefully predicted. Most of them seem to have a deep emotional attachment and ruthlessly attack any challenges unwilling to give up their cherish doom and gloom perspective.

 

[eddif]

It’s amazing how many futurists spin long detailed accounts of the future filling endless books that are outdated a few years later as world events changed but didn’t lead to what was so carefully predicted. Most of them seem to have a deep emotional attachment and ruthlessly attack any challenges unwilling to give up their cherish doom and gloom perspective.

And I sit on both sides.

A lot has been done
A lot still needs to be done.

I kind of politely refuse to join either side. I am a rod and staff advocate. Even today. There are changes at the last trump.

Books are written by both sides. It might be best to be an eclectic reader.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dwb001,

The comparison of the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and the books of Daniel and Revelation as well as Matthew 24 is too much to cover in a post. I reluctantly give you one of many presentations by Bruce Gore (who is a Calvinist by the way.)

This morning I read again Matthew 24 and it struck me that Jesus gave many signs and events that no one can miss regarding the coming judgement which lead to the christians leaving the city when they saw the events being played out. Matthew 1-24 if full of signs that are given in chronological order finishing up with Matthew 24:30 that says clearly Jesus will come in the clouds (metaphor for judgement not cumulus elevator) and that wraps up those signs and that ending of the covenant relationship with Israel. The signs are there. And the events described by Josephus fit in with this although he never read the book and was a Jew not a Christian and so not trying to make it fit.

Then in verse 36 he switches to his second coming which will have no signs from God no one can miss as in the previous verses. This an entirely different event and it lays it out so. Towards the end he tells us to be ready or "stay awake" and then goes on to tell us what he expects in detail. This is marvelous and I find it thrilling. What does He say we need to do to be ready? Matthew 24:45-51 tells us being ready is measured in how we treat other people. I have asked futurists what "be awake" means and they do not know. They think world events are signs but I have heard this for 50 years (Israel getting some real estate means within 40 years, a Bible generation (which is not actually in the Bible), so Jesus will come no later than 1972. Guess what? They were wrong. Why? Because there will be no signs from God at all according to Jesus. And what is more, Acts 1:11 tells us he is not coming with a military entourage.

Anyway, you can look into this if you find you have the courage. It is tremendously thrilling and empowering to drop the doom and gloom eschatology. It is thrilling to see that the events Jesus and Daniel and John described came to be fitting the description. Scripture fulfilled is more thrilling than waiting for a prophesy to be fulfilled. But that is just my personal experience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And I sit on both sides.

A lot has been done
A lot still needs to be done.

I kind of politely refuse to join either side. I am a rod and staff advocate. Even today. There are changes at the last trump.

Books are written by both sides. It might be best to be an eclectic reader.

eddif

This is, of course, the painless position, but you will never know the thrill of knowing the truth. But you know, if you do not want to commit on this one, it really does not affect your christianity and perhaps, I admire your position more than the stubborn futurists who do not even want to learn about anything else. "I do not know" is a better position than "I insist I am right and you are a (uncomplimentary adjective) for saying what you do."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry to be off on your timeline by 10 years.
Still you provide no answers.

No, you are off. The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written before the horrible events of 70AD and given to the believers so that they would know what is coming and take comfort in those words written to them. It all fits perfectly. I now gave you a link if you want to know more. There are a few hours of lecture on these matters by Bruce Gore if you want to educate yourself in what the opposition believes.

But you provide no references... so maybe you are making it all up.
I asked for an itemised response and you failed to meet the basic expections.

Which book of Josephus? Antiquities? Wars? What chapter? I didn't ask for a quote... only a reference.
And you fail again to provide any reference.

This information is readily found on the net so this is a smoke screen. It would take pages and pages to write out the fulfillment of the prophesies of Daniel, Jesus and Revelation. Pages and pages. I recommend you educate yourself on what you do not believe and stop personally attacking me.

Good for them... maybe they(like others on these forums) were wrong.

I have... but which one? There are more than a few books about history you know.

Not metaphors unless you can prove that.
Yes I believe very much that all islands and mountains will be removed.
Are you saying that God lied about His appearance?

So your view is scriptures are how you think the verses mean or God is lying? You know who had that position and used it wisely? The serpent. He told Eve that "you shall surely die" was not true and how he saw it was the truth essentially and they can eat the fruit and not die. You are my sibling in Christ and I urge you not to take that position. take your own view more lightly. You are not the people and wisdom will not die with you. (Job sort of)

I itemised them... so answer my itemised list.
You do understand you are assuming much about other peoples arguments and thus you are contradicting yourself.

Roughly quoting you... "there is nothing called the Great Tribulation but there is a thing called the time of great tribulation"...

Look it up if you do not believe me. What were the words Jesus used when speaking of those days?

And there is nothing called the Trinity in the Bible... nor does the Bible preach against homosexuality because the word isn't in the Bible.

huh? What does this have to do with the discussion and those above are not true in any case.

These are silly arguments and make the person expounding them look foolish.

Why do you refer to the OT when the point is John was writing prophecy. So you should be looking to history for the confirmation, or I could just say that John was copying the OT so that his writings looked to be more prophetic than they actually were.

The book of Revelation is full of references to the OT. Here is a quote so you know this is not me making this up.

"Revelation rarely quotes directly from the Old Testament, yet almost every verse alludes to or echoes ideas of older scriptures. Over half of the references stem from Daniel, Ezekiel, Psalms, and Isaiah, with Daniel providing the largest number in proportion to length and Ezekiel standing out as the most influential."

Much study is NOT needed. Maybe just understand how Revelation is different from all other books of the Bible and you might get the subtle differences.
Much study leads to gnostic views of the Bible and that leads quickly to error.

"Study to show thyself approved." "Search the scriptures."

NIV acts 17:11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I gave you a link that you can listen to. It is not that much work to listen to a position you do not hold yourself. It is actually how we learn, by listening to those whose thinking is not at the same level we are at.

My best wishes to you and your family.

 

[dwb001]

No, you are off. The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written before the horrible events of 70AD and given to the believers so that they would know what is coming and take comfort in those words written to them. It all fits perfectly. I now gave you a link if you want to know more. There are a few hours of lecture on these matters by Bruce Gore if you want to educate yourself in what the opposition believes.

I said I am off... and you say "No, you are off." Which is it? Wow you can't even accept a concession to the point.
No thanks... but maybe just explain things here.

This information is readily found on the net so this is a smoke screen. It would take pages and pages to write out the fulfillment of the prophesies of Daniel, Jesus and Revelation. Pages and pages. I recommend you educate yourself on what you do not believe and stop personally attacking me.

I have not personally attacked you.
Do you have your copy of Josephus out? Tell me what book, chapter and verse you are referencing and I will confirm in my copy of Josephus.

So your view is scriptures are how you think the verses mean or God is lying? You know who had that position and used it wisely? The serpent. He told Eve that "you shall surely die" was not true and how he saw it was the truth essentially and they can eat the fruit and not die. You are my sibling in Christ and I urge you not to take that position. take your own view more lightly. You are not the people and wisdom will not die with you. (Job sort of)

And I urge you to look to Rev 22:18-19. You may be altering the intent of the text of Revelation and by the very clear words of Revelation you might be in danger of Hellfire.

Look it up if you do not believe me. What were the words Jesus used when speaking of those days?

Three times in the KJV the term Great Tribulation is used. So that is what it should be called according to you.

huh? What does this have to do with the discussion and those above are not true in any case.

The book of Revelation is full of references to the OT. Here is a quote so you know this is not me making this up.

"Revelation rarely quotes directly from the Old Testament, yet almost every verse alludes to or echoes ideas of older scriptures. Over half of the references stem from Daniel, Ezekiel, Psalms, and Isaiah, with Daniel providing the largest number in proportion to length and Ezekiel standing out as the most influential."

That is incorrect. If the OT is referenced it is because the OT is referencing the same events as Revelation.
Funny I don't remember that quote from the Bible.

"Study to show thyself approved." "Search the scriptures."

NIV acts 17:11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Did the Berean search the scriptures to prove or disprove Paul.
And all I am asking is the same of you. Have you read Revelation as I have asked in the past.
Have you read it with a clean mindset, not trying to interpret anything but reading it as the book was intended to be read?

I gave you a link that you can listen to. It is not that much work to listen to a position you do not hold yourself. It is actually how we learn, by listening to those whose thinking is not at the same level we are at.

My best wishes to you and your family.

Why would I listen to someone who is incorrect and then learn from that what I should believe?
If I listen to your link will you read Revelation as I recommend?
Will you follow my leader?

Is it not possible(in some small way) that I might know what I am talking about and that you may not?
Does the possibility exist that you might be wrong and I am trying to lovingly correct you?

If the answer is no... then I will wash my hands of you and knock the dust off my feet with you.
If the answer is yes... then there might still be hope... and we can move on from there.

 

[dwb001]

It’s amazing how many futurists spin long detailed accounts of the future filling endless books that are outdated a few years later as world events changed but didn’t lead to what was so carefully predicted. Most of them seem to have a deep emotional attachment and ruthlessly attack any challenges unwilling to give up their cherish doom and gloom perspective.

Except... my views are anything but doom and gloom.
It is all victory, power and might of the Bridegroom.
My Man is coming power and flame to show who is the true King of kings.
Every event in Revelation is strength and Majesty of the One who loves me like no other.

So maybe that is your problem with Revelation.
Do you see Jesus as a beta male?
Is your Jesus not able to defeat the evils of this world?
Do you see Jesus as loving and caring and forgiving only.

My view of Jesus is love, care, forgiveness AND justice, holiness, powerful.

 

[dwb001]

dwb001,

The comparison of the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and the books of Daniel and Revelation as well as Matthew 24 is too much to cover in a post. I reluctantly give you one of many presentations by Bruce Gore (who is a Calvinist by the way.)

This morning I read again Matthew 24 and it struck me that Jesus gave many signs and events that no one can miss regarding the coming judgement which lead to the christians leaving the city when they saw the events being played out. Matthew 1-24 if full of signs that are given in chronological order finishing up with Matthew 24:30 that says clearly Jesus will come in the clouds (metaphor for judgement not cumulus elevator) and that wraps up those signs and that ending of the covenant relationship with Israel. The signs are there. And the events described by Josephus fit in with this although he never read the book and was a Jew not a Christian and so not trying to make it fit.

Then in verse 36 he switches to his second coming which will have no signs from God no one can miss as in the previous verses. This an entirely different event and it lays it out so. Towards the end he tells us to be ready or "stay awake" and then goes on to tell us what he expects in detail. This is marvelous and I find it thrilling. What does He say we need to do to be ready? Matthew 24:45-51 tells us being ready is measured in how we treat other people. I have asked futurists what "be awake" means and they do not know. They think world events are signs but I have heard this for 50 years (Israel getting some real estate means within 40 years, a Bible generation (which is not actually in the Bible), so Jesus will come no later than 1972. Guess what? They were wrong. Why? Because there will be no signs from God at all according to Jesus. And what is more, Acts 1:11 tells us he is not coming with a military entourage.

Anyway, you can look into this if you find you have the courage. It is tremendously thrilling and empowering to drop the doom and gloom eschatology. It is thrilling to see that the events Jesus and Daniel and John described came to be fitting the description. Scripture fulfilled is more thrilling than waiting for a prophesy to be fulfilled. But that is just my personal experience.

Why do you place Matthew(a biography) above a personally commissioned by Jesus book?
Just wondering why you trust more to a biography than a direct transcription?
Why not trust that Revelation is literal and Matthew is symbolic?

Jesus personally ordered the creation of only one book in the NT, correct? (Rev 1:19)
John was a faithful recorder of his vision. If you want to argue that John brought in references from the OT then you are saying that John lied about what he was shown. John's job was to write what he saw... not what he understood, believed, was taught.
So either John was a bad choice for the recorder of the vision, or he lied.

Or maybe Jesus and the Angels lied to John and showed him a deceptive vision. Not really in character.

So if John is true and Jesus is true and the Angels that spoke to John are true... Then Revelation is a bit of a special case in the NT.