Russia and Israel, now what?

[Dorothy Mae]

If this is another one of your poor attempts at humor, then I suppose I expect nothing less from a European such as yourself.

I’m not a European so your insult went astray. The humor did pass you by.

In all seriousness, did you post this thread just so you can receive a genuine answer from the Christforums.net users, or did you wish to project your preconception about what your ideas of the end-time events are going to be like?

Another insult. I wanted to know how futurists dealt with the truth about Russia, that they cannot take Kiev and certainly are not going to march through sovereign nations to get to Jerusalem anytime soon. Those are the obvious facts so how do futurists deal with this?

You offer Turkey, a NATO nation, laying down its Muslim culture and joining christian orthodox Russia. That’s not reality. And when challenged your answer is anything (you imagine) can happen and you insult me.

May I politely ask what Christian denomination are you from? I wish to know what ideology and beliefs you hold regarding about Christianity in general.

You are not polite and so I will withhold personal information until you’ve earned my trust. Try laughing at the joke. I didn’t make it up but thought it pretty funny.

God Bless!

He does but you don’t. Lighten up.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If Russia is already friends with the Muslim Central Asian Countries (Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan). What makes you think Russia can't be friends with another Muslim country such as Turkey? Because Turkey is "NATO" and Russia is well...Russia like you think it is?

God Bless!

Friends is not close to surrendering. I didn’t say they aren’t “friends” but that they won’t surrender their sovereign territory. All of Europe is friends with Turkey and has been while the Soviet Union ruled the Muslims nations under it who gladly left the union ASAP. Turkey refuses to let Soviet ships go to the Crimea. Not much of a friendship.

 

[Marilyn C]

You know Marilyn C, Think about God deciding to make those nasty people repent by bringing judgment on them. Is this the dealings of a just and loving God? Did God raining brimstone on Sodom bring them to repentance? Did God eliminating nations bring them to repentance? Did the Jews who experienced the judgement of God in 70AD repent?

The gospel is going through the earth at an incredible speed change nations as it said it would. Jesus is not coming in a hostile, bloody, violent takeover and we are on the "right" side. He is coming as he left, the scripture says.

This is my position, the violence described in Revelation and Matthew 24 was God judging Israel for murdering the prophets sent to it including the Son. That will not happen again.

Rev. 19: 11 - 21.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Rev. 19: 11 - 21.

You probably don’t know that this was Gods judgement on Israel and is in the past. I give you the best more accurate direct, no metaphor, description of his return (but you won’t like it.) Acts1:12

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I asked the question because I know futurists are fond of finding “fulfillment” of prophesy of the end is near when it fits. Earthquakes? Prophesy fulfillment!! But I wondered if the camp that sees powerful Russia matching to Jerusalem thinks a bit differently now that it’s crystal clear they can’t.

 

[eddif]

Rev. 19: 11 - 21.

My post 183 was in support of punishment to bringing repentance.

This is maybe not under this thread exactly, but God does use punishment of his people to bring repentance.

Judgement may not be to bring repentance though. I don’t want to force this conversation.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My post 183 was in support of punishment to bringing repentance.

This is maybe not under this thread exactly, but God does use punishment of his people to bring repentance.

When? Did Sodom repent?

Judgement may not be to bring repentance though. I don’t want to force this conversation.

Judgement is definitely not for repentance. it’s for justice. It’s sometimes final and the judges are gone.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When? Did Sodom repent?

Judgement is definitely not for repentance. it’s for justice. It’s sometimes final and the judges are gone.

I meant those so judged are then gone.

 

[eddif]

When? Did Sodom repent?

Judgement is definitely not for repentance. it’s for justice. It’s sometimes final and the judges are gone.

Great

Lot basically is Gods person. (But not perfect). His wife was family but evidently judged by God. The daughters evidently are not his people in later actions?
In the middle of judgement is a reminant of sorts saved?

Did we just agree? Wow

This concept is what I speak of in Ezekiel. Judgement came on some of Israel at Jerusalem, but those who sighed over the sins of Israel were dispersed to be saved from death.

Back to Russia and Israel.
If in the middle of all this conflict/judgement, and if it is not the final judgement (if the hearts of Any are turned/stayed on God) some might be saved.

As a redneck I do not claim to be beyond who I am. I see concepts (at times), and not always timelines. Remnants are saved before The Day of Judgement.. at the day of judgement (it seems the books decide).

I see through dark sunshades. Not blind but not clearly yet.

eddif

 

[Oseas]

Judgement is definitely not for repentance. it’s for justice. It’s sometimes final and the Judges are gone.

Right. Romans 2:5-16KJV

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12 For as many as have sinned without law (the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jews) shall be Judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the Day(Lord's Day) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[eddif]

Right. Romans 2:5-16KJV

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12 For as many as have sinned without law (the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jews) shall be Judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the Day(Lord's Day) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Amen

The Jew and Gentile who have the law placed in heart and mind by God (the one new man), and not those who seek righteousness of the law written on stony hearts. The Jew first.

Scarcely…

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right. Romans 2:5-16KJV

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

Where does this say that the so judged repent? That was my statement. The judgement of God, when it falls, and we are talking JUDGEMENT as in Sodom or Jerusalem 70AD, is for justice not repentance.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12 For as many as have sinned without law (the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jews) shall be Judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the Day(Lord's Day) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

I think you didn’t understand my statement. When God judges a nation, that is, pours out that Final Judgement that wipes them out as in Jerusalem 70AD, it does not lead to repentance.

 

[Marilyn C]

You probably don’t know that this was Gods judgement on Israel and is in the past. I give you the best more accurate direct, no metaphor, description of his return (but you won’t like it.) Acts1:12

Hi Dorothy,

Yes, Jesus will come again to the mount of Olives, (Acts 1: 11 & 12, Zech. 14: 3 & 4) when He will fight against those nations that come against Jerusalem. (v. 1 & 2)

Also, the angelic army will be with the Lord.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

I asked the question because I know futurists are fond of finding “fulfillment” of prophesy of the end is near when it fits. Earthquakes? Prophesy fulfillment!! But I wondered if the camp that sees powerful Russia matching to Jerusalem thinks a bit differently now that it’s crystal clear they can’t.

Dorothy, the `show ` is not over yet. Do you realise that Russia has 120 million people!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy,

Yes, Jesus will come again to the mount of Olives, (Acts 1: 11 & 12, Zech. 14: 3 & 4) when He will fight against those nations that come against Jerusalem. (v. 1 & 2)

Also, the angelic army will be with the Lord.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks for hanging in there. That is, of course, the Futurist Eschatology. I do not believe a word of that but I know it’s quite popular in N. America.

What I see in scripture is that Jesus came in Judgement (not bodily) and those who pierced him standing at his trial saw that day. He fought against them through the chaos inside and Romans outside. This is my eschatology in a nutshell.

Luke 21:32
“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matt 25:35

And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Those experienced what you describe and they deserved it and could have repented anywhere along the way.

Act1:11 describes his second coming without metaphors as you quoted but do not believe judging from the rest of your words. “He will come in same way he left” (no horses, no army, no bloodshed.)

But concerning that day (2nd coming) and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,bbut the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice there were no signs and they were UNAWARE.

The other scriptures you cite are mainly metaphors and describe the events around and up until 70AD. The the scriptures you quote are the same speech given at the same time in different Gospels which is disingenuous of you. The gospels report the same events but it doesn’t make it doubly true. It happened to that generation as Jesus said it would and the details match astoundingly.

God has never and will never come with a supernatural army to execute bloody killing on those who cannot defend themselves because they don’t like Him. In every instances, either He sent human armies or “natural” disasters occurred. He never comes like an invading horde.

The angel said he’d come in the same manner, not to the same place.

I know you don’t agree but if you just understand that with you don’t agree, it’d be great.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, the `show ` is not over yet. Do you realise that Russia has 120 million people!

Doesn’t seem to be helping them. Not saying they won’t win but if they cannot take an almost third world nation, they aren’t marching through many nations which requires them taking over those nations (who had that left their control ASAP.)

The Bible doesn’t actually say Russia anyway. It’s just that Americans don’t like Russia and so write popular books naming them as the bad guy. Makes a ton of money.

But the general view is that futurists believe Russia is very powerful and intent on attacking Israel no matter what the reality is. Ok, well I asked.

 

[eddif]

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks for hanging in there. That is, of course, the Futurist Eschatology. I do not believe a word of that but I know it’s quite popular in N. America.

What I see in scripture is that Jesus came in Judgement (not bodily) and those who pierced him standing at his trial saw that day. He fought against them through the chaos inside and Romans outside. This is my eschatology in a nutshell.

Luke 21:32
“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matt 25:35

And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Those experienced what you describe and they deserved it and could have repented anywhere along the way.

Act1:11 describes his second coming without metaphors as you quoted but do not believe judging from the rest of your words. “He will come in same way he left” (no horses, no army, no bloodshed.)

But concerning that day (2nd coming) and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,bbut the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice there were no signs and they were UNAWARE.

The other scriptures you cite are mainly metaphors and describe the events around and up until 70AD. The the scriptures you quote are the same speech given at the same time in different Gospels which is disingenuous of you. The gospels report the same events but it doesn’t make it doubly true. It happened to that generation as Jesus said it would and the details match astoundingly.

God has never and will never come with a supernatural army to execute bloody killing on those who cannot defend themselves because they don’t like Him. In every instances, either He sent human armies or “natural” disasters occurred. He never comes like an invading horde.

The angel said he’d come in the same manner, not to the same place.

I know you don’t agree but if you just understand that with you don’t agree, it’d be great.

1 Corinthians 11:31 kjv
31. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Ok in the Op you said

So what nation do you see today as marching down to Israel to surround it so the world can end and Jesus come and take over? (I hope I didn’t offend in my choice of words. I tried to be neutral and I am sincerely asking.)

if you are sincerely asking (and we respond) ???

Past Present Future:
What happens in Eden - Eden closed
At Noah’s flood - no more floods like that
From Moses to John the law was taught
etc.

Just because something happened in the past a certain way, it does not make the past way as the way the future will work. I am sure my punctuation is lacking.

Today the Jew and Gentile are one new man. Both are more of one mind. Are we in charge of all the changes? No. Are we more in charge? I say yes. Can I explain this down to the finest point? No.
Thus
The 1 Corinthians 11:31 verse.

There is a final judgement in the future (even though judgement is shifting). A time when the books are opened. Some things are sealed now.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Oseas]

Where does this say that the so judged repent? That was my statement. The judgement of God, when it falls, and we are talking JUDGEMENT as in Sodom or Jerusalem 70AD, is for justice not repentance.

Judgement is definitely not for repentance. it’s for justice. It’s sometimes final and the Judges are gone.
Yes, after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Oseas]

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Thessalonians 7-10

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[GodsGrace]

Russia cannot even take Kiev, marching distance away. China has no interest in that nuclear nation. Ever look at the geography? How are they doing to get there? I think if you asked a military man about this, they would laugh. Wars are still fought with soldiers who need transportation through waters and nations directly opposed to them getting there. But I see that those who hold this eschatology do not want to think about it very far. Nations have to hate Israel whether they do or not. Israel is defenseless whether it is or not. OK, no answers available and no change in eschatology will be entertained.

Dorothy,
I know nothing of end times, but I heard, can't remember where, that the end would come from the Middle East.

Any thought?