Sabbath Day business

[JLB]

I agree. Considering the length to which Paul and others talk about the law, and fulfilling it, not casting it down, I can't see the verse meaning we are not to examine and discuss the law, even to the point of quarreling, period, because that would be "unprofitable and worthless".

I think it imperative that we know for ourselves how we fulfill the law. Not so we can be justified that way, but so we can "learn what is pleasing to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:10 NASB), and so we won't be "foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" (Ephesians 5:17 NASB), and "so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4 NASB).

Love God and love your neighbor.

That is the essence of what Genesis through Revelstion teaches.

How does not eating shrimp benefit my neighbor?

Does it take faith to not eat shrimp?


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's funny to me that so many people in the church feel the need to stress not trying to be justified before God through keeping laws. Out of the countless Christians I've met and conversed with in all my years as a Christian I've only met perhaps two that believed a person is justified by doing certain commands given by God (jocor is NOT one of them).

The exact opposite problem is what grips the church these days--the belief that dead faith, the faith the demons have, is the faith that can save them. Few in the church have the spiritual insight to even see the magnitude of this problem in the church today, let alone be able to stress the danger of such a belief.

So I don't know why it's necessary, except for a very tiny fraction of the church, that so many Christians rail against an almost completely defeated belief that keeping various commands of God is how one is justified (made righteous) in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation.

You said faith in Christ fulfills the law.

What is the purpose of Christians, who have faith in Christ, trying to keep the law of Moses, if the have fulfilled the law?

If they don't have faith in Christ, then they are not saved.

Either way, it's a Gospel problem, not a law of Moses problem.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Love God and love your neighbor.

That is the essence of what Genesis through Revelstion teaches.

How does not eating shrimp benefit my neighbor?

Does it take faith to not eat shrimp?


JLB

You not eating shrimp does not benefit your neighbor. It benefits you by being a fruit of your salvation and love for "God".

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.
​

However, if you feed your neighbor shrimp, you show you do not love him because you are giving him something Yahweh does not allow to be eaten.

Yes, it takes faith to not eat shrimp. It takes faith to obey any command of Yahweh. That is why Israel failed, because the Word preached to them was not mixed with faith. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

 

[JLB]

You not eating shrimp does not benefit your neighbor. It benefits you by being a fruit of your salvation and love for "God".

Not eating shrimp has nothing to do with my salvation.

You not eating shrimp does not benefit your neighbor. It benefits you by being a fruit of your salvation and love for "God".

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.
​

However, if you feed your neighbor shrimp, you show you do not love him because you are giving him something Yahweh does not allow to be eaten.

Yes, it takes faith to not eat shrimp. It takes faith to obey any command of Yahweh. That is why Israel failed, because the Word preached to them was not mixed with faith. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

Jesus Christ is YHWH, the Lord God.

He has purified all foods.

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
Mark 7:14-15

There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him;

18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Genesis 9:3

Same Lord that spoke to Noah also spoke to His disciples and purified all foods.

...because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”

If you want to keep the law of Mosed you must keep all the law, which includes sacrifices and returning to Jerusalem for the feasts, putting people to death who violate the Sabbath, stoning women found in adultery..,

JLB

 

[ezrider]

Yes, it takes faith to not eat shrimp. It takes faith to obey any command of Yahweh. That is why Israel failed, because the Word preached to them was not mixed with faith. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

If you want to keep the law of Mosed you must keep all the law, which includes sacrifices and returning to Jerusalem for the feasts, putting people to death who violate the Sabbath, stoning women found in adultery..,

And this is where we cross a line. For if jocor by faith keeps the Sabbath, or by faith he abstains from eating shrimp, then it is jocor's faith before the Lord.

JLB, if jocor were to go on and keep the Law of Moses as you suggest, then if he were to stand up to stone someone to death, then I suppose it would have to be faith that would drive him to do such a thing. I am trusting that his faith does not lead him there by refusing to eat shrimp.

But where the faith of jocor ends with these matters and the condemnation begins is when he does not keep it before the Lord, but instead proclaims it publicly for the rest of us to glory in his self righteousness, that by his faith he won't eat shrimp so he can establish the law.
Thou hast faith, keep it to thyself. But to be as the hypocrites who love to make a show of themselves, saying look at me, because I keep the Sabbath. or look at me, I won't eat shrimp because it was commanded to me.

Well jocor, this is your reward. When you bring the things of the law before the congregation to justify your own self righteousness, then it is no more by faith, but of works, and the whole of the law falls upon your head. If only you knew your faith before the Lord, you would not try to justify it before the rest of us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does not eating shrimp benefit my neighbor?

Does it take faith to not eat shrimp?

You said faith in Christ fulfills the law.

What is the purpose of Christians, who have faith in Christ, trying to keep the law of Moses, if the have fulfilled the law?

See? I've been telling you over and over and over again that your problem is you are only able to think of the fulfillment of the law as keeping it literally to the letter.

If you really want to know truth about this subject, read Isaiah 58 to see God teach even the Isrealites a true spiritual fulfillment of the law. I'm guessing you will not, but I post this so others will--http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/58.html.

I urge everyone to read it and see how 'love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills even the Sabbath Commandment--"and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Romans 13:9 NASB italics/bold mine, capitals in original)


.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

More of your tangled nonsense.

JLB

I will remind you of this discussion when you start talking about faith equaling obedience again in this forum:

"2...the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
6 ...those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience"
Hebrews 4:2,6 NASB

 

[JLB]

See? I've been telling you over and over and over again that your problem is you are only able to think of the fulfillment of the law as keeping it literally to the letter.

If you really want to know truth about this subject, read Isaiah 58 to see God teach even the Isrealites a true spiritual fulfillment of the law. I'm guessing you will not, but I post this so others will--http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/58.html.

The law of Moses required the children of Israel to do all of the literal commands that were instituted by Moses.

It it's not the literal law of Moses, with all the commands to literally do by Moses, then it's not the law of Moses.

The New Covenant is not some spiritual new law of Moses.

The law of Moses has been made obsolete, and has vanished away, being nailed to the cross.

Hebrews 8:13

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, - Ephesians 2:14

If the law of Moses has not been removed, then why does God call it the New Covenant.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But where the faith of jocor ends with these matters and the condemnation begins is when he does not keep it before the Lord, but instead proclaims it publicly for the rest of us to glory in his self righteousness

Why is law keeping categorically and without exception always seen as trying to be self-righteous? Why is it impossible to keep the literal law for the reason of a genuine love and thankfulness to God?

"4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:4,6 NASB)


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[JLB]

I will remind you of this discussion when you start talking about faith equaling obedience again in this forum:

It is well documented on this Forum what I teach about the obedience of faith, even to the point of you accusing me of teaching a works doctrine.

The point I made about your doctrine is also clear, in that the scripture you posted from Romans, makes no mention of "faith in Christ" fulfilling the law of Moses.

It says love fulfills.

Not faith in Christ fulfills.

Please post the scripture where faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses, and you will be back on track.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses required the children of Israel to do all of the literal commands that were instituted by Moses.

It it's not the literal law of Moses, with all the commands to literally do by Moses, then it's not the law of Moses.

The New Covenant is not some spiritual new law of Moses.

The law of Moses has been made obsolete, and has vanished away, being nailed to the cross.

Hebrews 8:13

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, - Ephesians 2:14

If the law of Moses has not been removed, then why does God call it the New Covenant.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.


JLB

Okay, now that you've once again given the reason why we don't have to keep the literal covenant requirements of the law of Moses, explain how we do not destroy them but uphold them through Christ and faith in him. If you can.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is well documented on this Forum what I teach about the obedience of faith, even to the point of you accusing me of teaching a works doctrine.

The point I made about your doctrine is also clear, in that the scripture you posted from Romans, makes no mention of "faith in Christ" fulfilling the law of Moses.

It says love fulfills.

Not faith in Christ fulfills.

Please post the scripture where faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses, and you will be back on track.


JLB

JLB, is not 'love your neighbor as yourself' obedient faith? Obedience that even you yourself equates with faith? Why do you suddenly not want to make that connection anymore?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Okay, now that you've once again droned out the reason we don't have to keep the literal covenant requirements of the law of Moses, explain how we do not destroy them but uphold them through Christ and faith in him. If you can.

Here, I'll help you...

" For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7 NASB)

In the above passage, is Christ a fulfilling and satisfying of the law of Passover for us, such that we don't have to do the literal fulfillment anymore, or is Christ the casting down and destroying of the law of Passover?

Did Christ come to destroy the law, or to fulfill it?
"I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)


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[Jethro Bodine]

If you want to keep the law of Mosed you must keep all the law

Only if you are trying to be justified by the law of Moses. Jocor is not. His goal is to please the Lord by living in obedient faith. His conscience dictates that he keep the literal Mosaic worship requirements to do that. Paul says that's what he should do.

 

[JLB]

Only if you are trying to be justified by the law of Moses. Jocor is not. His goal is to please the Lord by living in obedient faith. His conscience dictates that he keep the literal Mosaic worship requirements to do that. Paul says that's what he should do.

Jocor is an example of a person who is trying to be justified by the law of Moses.

He has rejected the words of Christ, that states all foods are pure.

Therefore he considers it a sin to eat Shrimp or bacon, which means he desires to be "right with God', by not eating shrimp or bacon.

The very definition of trying to be justified by the obsolete law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, it takes faith to not eat shrimp. It takes faith to obey any command of Yahweh. That is why Israel failed, because the Word preached to them was not mixed with faith. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

Spot on.
Even if we disagree on the fulfillment of the law in this New Covenant, it's definitely true that the Israelite who had faith kept the law when and where he could. No question about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jocor is an example of a person who is trying to be justified by the law of Moses.

He has rejected the words of Christ, that states all foods are pure.

Therefore he considers it a sin to eat Shrimp or bacon, which means he desires to be "right with God', by not eating shrimp or bacon.

The very definition of trying to be justified by the obsolete law of Moses.


JLB

Jocor is not trying to make himself righteous by his observance of the law. But I understand that you are only capable of seeing law keeping that way.

I've only met one law keeper who thought he literally made himself righteous before God by keeping the law.

 

[JLB]

JLB, is not 'love your neighbor as yourself' obedient faith? Obedience that even you yourself equates with faith? Why do you suddenly not want to make that connection anymore?

It's about the scripture you quoted from Romans... faith in Christ fulfills the law of Moses.

You scripture does not say that.

It says love fulfills...


Love God and love your neighbor has been God's Royal law since the garden...

Love fulfills and satisfies the all the Torah and prophets, because loves does no wrong to people.

This was true before Christ.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jocor is an example of a person who is trying to be justified by the law of Moses.

He has rejected the words of Christ, that states all foods are pure.

Therefore he considers it a sin to eat Shrimp or bacon, which means he desires to be "right with God', by not eating shrimp or bacon.

The very definition of trying to be justified by the obsolete law of Moses.


JLB

He keeps Sabbath, for example, for the same reason I and others keep 'do not steal'--to do right before God, not so we can be declared righteous by that right doing, but because both of us know that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that is then seen in it's obedience to do right (you know, your former teaching 'faith=obedience').

This is actually one of the things that stirred my insights into this matter. Here I was bashing law keepers for keeping the law as if wanting to do rightoeus works automatically meant trying to make yourself righteous before God, all the while I'm obeying the commands to not steal, not commit adultery, etc. I realized even I obey the law, but not for the reason of trying to justify myself. I suddenly realized it's entirely possible to do that. I was doing that, lol!

 

[smaller]

You not eating shrimp does not benefit your neighbor. It benefits you by being a fruit of your salvation and love for "God".

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.
​

However, if you feed your neighbor shrimp, you show you do not love him because you are giving him something Yahweh does not allow to be eaten.

Yes, it takes faith to not eat shrimp. It takes faith to obey any command of Yahweh. That is why Israel failed, because the Word preached to them was not mixed with faith. Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31).

There are 'carnal fleshly' ordinances, and there are spiritual ordinances hidden within those same Words.

Let's not mistake one for the other.

Paul transcribed every command in the scriptures into ONE LAW, the only LAW of the Spirit, that matters. Romans 13:8-10