Sabbath Day business

[jocor]

jocor Is there anybody here trying to tell you that Saturday Worship is somehow wrong?

Here are winepress' words;

I could never think to go back to that old washed out wineskin of a practice any more than I would reconsider butchering out a lamb on an altar in some building in the middle east. I was just answering your question from Holy Writ is all.
​

Sounds like winepress is saying the 7th day rest is wrong, worthless and not for the new wine skins of the New Covenant.

 

[ezrider]

But that was the case. The sheet with all the animals from Peter's vision dropped more than three times in those conversations but nothing was resolved. The message from the Holy Spirit was to Jews who wanted to insist that Gentiles could not be made to be clean. Nothing all that complex. But we are dense sometimes.

The vision given to Peter was and indication of the fulfillment of the law, announcing they had entered the promised land.

Deuteronomy 12:11-16
Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord: And ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you. Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest: But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee. Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the Lord thy God which he hath given thee:the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart. Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.


Deuteronomy 12:20-24
When the Lord thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. If the place which the Lord thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the Lord hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them:the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike. Only be sure that thou eat not the blood:for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water.

 

[Sparkey]

The vision given to Peter was and indication of the fulfillment of the law, announcing they had entered the promised land.

Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, ... the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart. Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

The vision of the sheet given to Peter had unclean and even had some of those creepy crawly things in it. But take note, Peter never did, even though he was commanded to "rise, kill, and eat" three times. He didn't. He was like Ezekiel 4:12 "not so, Lord," when he was commanded to eat barley cakes using human dung as fuel. Peter also refused.

Notice that it was the unclean and the the clean that was given permission to eat flesh because their soul (their body) lusteth after it. "the unclean and the clean may eat thereof" is not the same as "you may eat that which is unclean." The Deut Scripture you quoted means something else... it doesn't mean that Peter (or Jews) could eat unclean meats. It means they could eat flesh (implied: clean flesh, not unclean). Fallow-deer, Hart, Hind, and Roe-buck. They were all numbered among the deut 14:4-5 clean animals.

I've not heard (never heard) that part. They were very definitely and definitively told to not to eat unclean - because that was part of their separation -- first the knife (the judgment, or the threat - the pricking of the Spirit, the conviction.) then the cut (the wound -- comes from acting on it) then the blood. In the blood is the life. We are not to eat the blood. That part applies to Jew and Gentile alike. And yes, in case you didn't catch it, I was talking about the circumcision of the heart. It's a mini-sermon in the making and I know it needs work. That's okay, I've got time.

And in the larger sense, I do see your point and I've never seen that before. :nodIt's just that I'm a very picky kind. Shhhh... don't tell anybody but I went for decades not eating unclean things. About 30 years. But now? I can eat a pizza with a clean conscience before God. Thank God for that, right? I'm reading and reading that Deut Scripture, trying to make what you have said fit... I may have to change my mind about it? I'll thank you if I do, but boy, I don't like having to do that... lol

 

[Sparkey]

jocor Is there anybody here trying to tell you that Saturday Worship is somehow wrong?

Here are winepress' words;

I could never think to go back to that old washed out wineskin of a practice any more than I would reconsider butchering out a lamb on an altar in some building in the middle east. I was just answering your question from Holy Writ is all.
​

Sounds like winepress is saying the 7th day rest is wrong, worthless and not for the new wine skins of the New Covenant.

I'd have to ask winepress to know that. Thanks for the reply though. I used the [mention] function to see if he/she is around to clear that up for us. But winepress has been a member here for less than a month? We're gonna go easy just because of that. Me? I don't have that excuse.

Could it also mean that he thinks you sound like those who want to make us into Jews? There are lots of people who are stuck on the law and they really do want to bring us back into bondage. You know.

We both know that 7th Day Worship is fine. There is no sin in it. Not one bit. And I'm pretty sure you can find Paul preaching about the significance of days as easy as I can. But thanks for the reply.

 

[Sparkey]

Correct.
They could not comprehend the message as to obey it because they would not.

You're putting too fine of a point on that for my taste. But okay. I'll tuck that one away and use it against you sometime, if you don't mind. I'll say I could not and you'll insist that it was indeed possible for me... then I'll say I could not because I would not. That almost means it's okay to be unwilling.

Nice convolution, if you like that kind of thing...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Because they have not believed the truth. But what us it that condemns them?

Their own unbelief evidenced in their wickedness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

then I'll say I could not because I would not. That almost means it's okay to be unwilling.

How does that make it okay to be unwilling?
It wasn't okay for the Isrealites.

 

[Sparkey]

Follow me, I'll try once again ('cause you're a friend and I'm dense too)
We were talking and you said "They could not..."

I raised my hand and said, "Of course they could, else God is evil -- how can we be given commands that he WON'T let us keep???"
Then you changed your mind and said, "They could not because they would not."

So that's how you came close to saying that it is okay to be unwilling.
If you say 'could not' is nothing more than a simple consequence of 'would not' you have conflated things beyond any reasonable meaning.

But you're correct. It is not okay to be unwilling. You should be apróthymos about being unwilling. You could also rightly stand against being lukewarm and/or milk-toast but I know you're nowhere close to that. Good thing, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

how can we be given commands that he WON'T let us keep???

How? When we decide to reject what he commands--but which we really can do through faith--he makes it so we can't do them. And he does that so the rejecter of truth will be condemned. I shared some scriptures that tell us this. Here are some more:

"18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity" (Ephesians 4:18-19 NIV italics mine)

"21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie" (Romans 1:21-25 NIV italics mine)

 

[ezrider]

Their own unbelief evidenced in their wickedness.

And what make the wickedness evident to them?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And what make the wickedness evident to them?

The commandment. Like when God gave the commandment to Adam 'do not eat', and he disobeyed it. The commandment aroused sin in him and he died because of his sin.

"Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Romans 7:7-9 NASB)

 

[JLB]

My statement needs to be understood in the context that Jesus Martyr made his comment. When he said "delivered from the Law of Moses," he meant that the entire Law of Moses is abolished. My comment was made to say we are not delivered from the Law of Moses by abolishing all the laws of Moses. The context of Romans 7:6 is dealing with being delivered from the hold (death penalty) that the Law had on us because Yeshua paid the death penalty and we died and were buried with him through our baptism unto death. Now that we are figuratively resurrected with him, we can easily obey the Law through the indwelling Spirit.

Delivered from the law...

...you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

The word (law) became flesh.
That flesh died and with the law died.

Those who were under the law, have been redeemed from the law.
Galatians 4:4

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:1-6

Paul plainly says he has died to the law... The very thing he was held by.

The scriptures say if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18


You say because we have the Spirit, we are now obligated to keep the law.

You teach against the scriptures.


...you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

The law was nailed to the cross and died with Christ.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Colossians 2:14


JLB

 

[JLB]

You included the 4th commandment of the Ten as an "ordinance," but included several others of the Ten as "Moral laws". On what grounds do you demote the Sabbath command to something less than the other nine and say it is not one of the moral laws. I submit to you that anyone who causes another person to work on the holy Sabbath Day broke a moral law. All Ten Commandments will that were on those stone tablets, later carried in the Ark of the Testimony and then written on the hearts of believers will be among the laws that govern YHWH's Kingdom during the Millennium.


Ephesians 2:13-16 is referring to man-made ordinances (dogma), not YHWH's ordinances (dikaioma). It was man-made Jewish laws that caused the hatred/enmity between Jew and Gentile, especially the wall they had built separating the court of the Jews from the court of the Gentiles which no Gentile could cross or else they would be put to death. YHWH never commanded such a wall to be built. It was the Jews hatred of Gentiles that led to its building and that led to the Gentiles hatred of Jews. The Gentiles loved YHWH's laws because they prevented Jews from wronging Gentiles and Jews loved His laws because they prevented Gentiles from wronging Jews.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18

All the law of Moses has been made obsolete by God.

We have been delivered from all the law of Moses. Romans 7:6

All the law was put to death, being contained in His flesh.

All the law that was added, until the Seed has come, was removed and taken out of the way.

The Lord Jesus is YHWH, the law giver who became flesh and died, and with his flesh the law died with Him.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith upholds and fulfills the law, not delivers us from it's righteous requirements. Faith did not come so we can break the law. Faith came so that we can uphold and fulfill the law.

What we are delivered from is the power of the law to keep us in bondage to sinful flesh (because the sin nature died with Christ on the cross), and we are delivered from the condemnation of the law because we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh, and have Christ's forgiveness when we do walk in the flesh. This is not to be confused with the end of the first covenant (which so many Protestants do). We fulfill the law through the New Covenant of Christ's blood and faith in that blood now.

 

[jocor]

Delivered from the law...

...you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

The word (law) became flesh.
That flesh died and with the law died.

Those who were under the law, have been redeemed from the law.
Galatians 4:4

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:1-6

Paul plainly says he has died to the law... The very thing he was held by.

The scriptures say if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18


You say because we have the Spirit, we are now obligated to keep the law.

You teach against the scriptures.


...you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

The law was nailed to the cross and died with Christ.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Colossians 2:14


JLB

The believer is dead to the law. This does not mean the law is dead. Being dead to the law means the law no longer has a claim upon our life if we break it. It does not mean we are no longer subject to the law as far as obeying it. The spiritual man will be subject to it, but the carnal man cannot be.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
​

Since we are in the Spirit and not in the flesh, we CAN and SHOULD BE subject to the law of Yahweh.

 

[jocor]

The law was nailed to the cross and died with Christ.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Colossians 2:14
JLB

The context of Colossians 2 deals with man-made laws and traditions. It was the "handwriting of dogma" that was nailed to the tree, not the handwriting of YHWH's laws. If YHWH's law was nailed to the tree, we would all be permitted to break any of His commandments. Yet, we see many "Old Covenant" laws that we are told to obey under the New Covenant. Why if they "died with Christ"?

 

[ezrider]

Since we are in the Spirit and not in the flesh, we CAN and SHOULD BE subject to the law of Yahweh.

I am afraid you have just simply mist the entire point of the Gospel.

What the LAW CAN NOT DO

IS

REVEAL TO YOU THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST.


I know I'm shouting, and I have said enough. If the point is lost to you, then it is lost to you.

 

[WIP]

Let's keep our voices....er, keybords...down please.

 

[Sparkey]

How? When we decide to reject what he commands--but which we really can do through faith--he makes it so we can't do them. And he does that so the rejecter of truth will be condemned. I shared some scriptures that tell us this.

I think of what God does (partial blindness and etc) as a mercy to us. We are getting stubborn and doing so in full light -- and we are disobedient, and if we continue to do this knowing full well that we are committing sin, we would be heaping up judgment against ourselves. So we slip back and we are seized and taken captive.

It's not about our inability -- it's our unwillingness. God is Good in all cases. He does not, can not, tell us to do the impossible. Jesus came in flesh. Even all those laws that were added because of our stubborn willfulness, because of transgression, were fulfilled by that MAN, that flesh. He was born of the Spirit and shows a better way.

So you can't tell me that God was evil and that He designed an impossible system. Remember the original prohibition. Don't eat the fruit from that one tree, way over there. Nothing impossible about that one, now was there?

No matter the authority, giving a command that can not be followed (because it's impossible) repudiates the command. Punishment for not following an impossible instruction that can not be followed is wicked. Our Father in heaven is not like that at all. We might think so, but Jesus showed differently.

We really need to start thinking like dads and understanding what it is to have to deal with "the willful child," more. It's not about evil dad. Not at all.

 

[Sparkey]

You're right about faith. Every single command, even the command to all of Israel to come to Mt. Sinai while it trembled before Him was achievable. Moses met the burning bush there, at Mt. Sinai earlier. The Children missed out on an experience when they refused to obey. Could it have been a national burning bush experience? We don't know. It could have been more, much, much more. But even sparrows died as they approached -- flesh dies in the presence of God's holiness. All flesh. What did God do? He acknowledged their fears (and stubborn refusal) and set boundaries. More instructions that are explicitly clear and readily followed. Did they have trouble staying away from God? No, for them, that was easy. They honored those boundaries, to a man.

But do you think that they would have been all slaughtered if they had stepped out in faith? They had been following Him in faith for three months just to get there. He was not going to let them down. They let themselves down when they understood how Holy He is and that no flesh can stand before Him.

Not even the Prophet Isaiah could glimpse His holiness. When He did? He used the prophetic curse formula against himself, "Woe is me," he bemoaned his fate, "... for I am a man of unclean lips." But by all counts, he was very comfortable before Royalty, a Statesman of statesmen. "From a people of unclean lips..." Such was his dilemma. But did God leave it at that? No. You know what happened. And that was indeed an impossible thing, for a man of sin to appear before the absolute holiness of God?!? This is death. No man can do this and live. Yet, God is merciful. His mercy endures forever. His goodness can not be measured.

You're right about faith. With faith, all things are possible and you already know that faith is not man-made. This too comes from Him.