salvation and the loss of it

[ezra]

i am rather shocked how this subject come up again. it usually sparks a fire storm . our salvation is Secure in Him the age old debate can or can we not will never be solved . yes i do believe salvation is eternal but this does give us a license to do as we please paul covers this in romans 6
Romans 6King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

we are free moral agents and times we do chose to do wrong freely .the Big problem is staying in the sin never returning back . question is was they truly saved . i whole heartedly believe that like the prodigal son that after we wallow in the filth and eat with the pigs . we will come to our senses and return home. one key word at times we over look REPENTANCE stop what we are doing make a about face . if there is no remorse in our Christian life and no remorse .. then i doubt we are saved... in closing i never preach we can lose our salvation or we can not. we all know our boundaries in what scripture has to say .. Jude 4 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, :amen

 

[Nathan]

Of course.


Such people NEVER believed. The Bible calls them unbelievers.


Right. Unbelievers. Never believed.


Trick question. His sheep, as opposed to those not His sheep, became His sheep by "entering through Him", per v.9. This is a metaphor or figure of speech for believing in Him. Those who believe receive eternal life. And will never perish.


Doesn't matter. Jesus is omniscient and knows full well who will not continue to follow Him. But His promise still stands.

I couldn't help but notice you left out the last question. Was it purposefully, or did you miss it? I'll repeat it in case you missed it.

John 10:27 (ESV) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Do you believe the above statement, which I underlined, of Christ is 100% true?

 

[FreeGrace]

Assuming this is directed to me, I said this in the previous post;
"Jesus promised eternal life to recipients of eternal life."

Where is the scripture passage that says that ?

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus gives them (believers) eternal life.

Result: they will never perish.

The result is promised from being a recipient of eternal life.

A recipient is one who has received something. Believers receive eternal life. Therefore, believers are recipients of eternal life.

And on THAT BASIS, they will never perish.

It's never about what we do in order to never perish. It's all about what Christ has done for us. Eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I couldn't help but notice you left out the last question. Was it purposefully, or did you miss it? I'll repeat it in case you missed it.

John 10:27 (ESV) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Do you believe the above statement, which I underlined, of Christ is 100% true?

I certainly know better than to think Jesus was speaking strictly literally, because He Himself spoke of those who "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13.

So, I believe that He was speaking generally. Otherwise, the problem is created that pits Jesus' words against Him.

I'd never do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Result: they will never perish.

The result is promised from being a recipient of eternal life.

A recipient is one who has received something. Believers receive eternal life. Therefore, believers are recipients of eternal life.

It's always humorous when I see the non-OSAS argument contained right in the OSASer's argument and they don't even realize it.

So Freegrace doctrine can do one of four things:

1) admit they see the non-hypergrace OSAS argument right in their own defense of Hypergrace OSAS (which will make them accountable for their error--John 9:41 NASB).

2) insist that they do not see it (which will confirm their blindness--John 9:41 NASB).

3) remain quiet and hope nobody notices and it just goes away (Romans 1:18 NASB).

4) come to their senses and repent of leading little ones who believe in Christ into a stumbling that will result in them going to the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

 

[dirtfarmer]

I couldn't help but notice you left out the last question. Was it purposefully, or did you miss it? I'll repeat it in case you missed it.

John 10:27 (ESV) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Do you believe the above statement, which I underlined, of Christ is 100% true?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Who are the "other sheep that shall hear his voice" mentioned in John 10 :16?

 

[Nathan]

I certainly know better than to think Jesus was speaking strictly literally, because He Himself spoke of those who "believed for a while" in Luke 8:13.

So, I believe that He was speaking generally. Otherwise, the problem is created that pits Jesus' words against Him.

I'd never do that.

I think you may be not hearing what you are saying.

You just said that one verse is not strictly literal, that Jesus was speaking 'generally', but in the very next verse you build your doctrine on the basis that Jesus meant what He said, not generally, and in absolute strict terms?

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Who are the "other sheep that shall hear his voice" mentioned in John 10 :16?

Gentiles

 

[reba]

FreeGrace , when we add our own thoughts to scripture it does change what the scriptures say.. My opinion your opinion is just that, our opinions.
When we read the Ten Commandments they are a straight list.. they read easy... I fully believe God wrote His Word for the most part in a way we can all 'get what we need ' from it...

He wrote them for you and for me.... we read things a bit different.. that does not make one of us wrong/right just different .. ( Note i am speaking within the realms of Christianity to a brother) We both know we are saved by Grace.. wiht all that that Grace includes...

When we look at God's creation lets say the Grand Canyon. IT is the same canyon we all see. some of the ways it is described will be the same, some will see something a bit different.. The colours will not be the same to each of us.. You may see an outcropping i dont... or a cleft... We are created alike but not so alike as to be clones..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's ironic that the very doctrine that insists a believer can never, ever go to the eternal hell is actually a doctrine that can cause one's who believe in Christ to go to the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Result: they will never perish.

The result is promised from being a recipient of eternal life.

A recipient is one who has received something. Believers receive eternal life. Therefore, believers are recipients of eternal life."

It's always humorous when I see the non-OSAS argument contained right in the OSASer's argument and they don't even realize it.[/QUOT]
Unless one also realizes what ELSE Scripture says about it. We know WHEN one receives eternal life; WHEN they believe. Jn 5:24
And that means one HAS (possesses, becomes the RECIPIENT) of eternal life WHEN they first believed.

So, Jesus' promise is clear: WHEN one believes, which is WHEN they believed, they are guaranteed by Jesus' promise that they will never perish. John 10:28

There is no way around Jesus' promise.

So Freegrace doctrine can do one of four things:

1) admit they see the non-hypergrace OSAS argument right in their own defense of Hypergrace OSAS (which will make them accountable for their error--John 9:41 NASB).

This would be nonsense.

2) insist that they do not see it (which will confirm their blindness--John 9:41 NASB).

What is seen, and very clearly, is Jesus' promise of eternal security in John 10:28.

3) remain quiet and hope nobody notices and it just goes away (Romans 1:18 NASB).

More nonsense.

4) come to their senses and repent of leading little ones who believe in Christ into a stumbling that will result in them going to the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

Again, Jesus promised eternal security in Jn 10:28, by saying recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Is this not a promise of never perishing? Or what?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you may be not hearing what you are saying.

Of course I am.

You just said that one verse is not strictly literal, that Jesus was speaking 'generally', but in the very next verse you build your doctrine on the basis that Jesus meant what He said, not generally, and in absolute strict terms?

Seriously? How could He be speaking in general terms in v.28? It's a very direct PROMISE.

I'm sure you do know the difference between making GENERAL statements and SPECIFIC DIRECT promises.

No rational person makes general promises. A promise is a specific guarantee about something specifically.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace , when we add our own thoughts to scripture it does change what the scriptures say.. My opinion your opinion is just that, our opinions.

I fully agree. That's why I post Scripture that SAYS what I believe.

When we read the Ten Commandments they are a straight list.. they read easy... I fully believe God wrote His Word for the most part in a way we can all 'get what we need ' from it...

He wrote them for you and for me.... we read things a bit different.. that does not make one of us wrong/right just different .. ( Note i am speaking within the realms of Christianity to a brother) We both know we are saved by Grace.. wiht all that that Grace includes...

Amen!

When we look at God's creation lets say the Grand Canyon. IT is the same canyon we all see. some of the ways it is described will be the same, some will see something a bit different.. The colours will not be the same to each of us.. You may see an outcropping i dont... or a cleft... We are created alike but not so alike as to be clones..

Sorry, but I don't see how this is relevant to the issue of eternal security vs conditional security.

Scripture cannot be so poorly written and communicated that individuals can come up with these 2 diametrically opposed ideas. I cannot believe in such a thing.

Scripture has to be just as clear about one stays saved as it is about how to get saved in the first place.

Vagueness has no place in these issues.

However, if the issue is just how one reads Scripture, then what's the big deal? Both sides would be right, but just "seeing" things "a bit" differently.

So, I guess I'm asking; what's your point? Or, what's your answer?

 

[FreeGrace]

It's ironic that the very doctrine that insists a believer can never, ever go to the eternal hell is actually a doctrine that can cause one's who believe in Christ to go to the eternal hell (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB).

How can that be? Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28

Apparently that promise is seen quite differently than the plain words He spoke.

"I give them eternal life" refers to recipients of eternal life. They became recipients when He gave eternal life to them.

"and they (recipients) will never perish".

iow, the moment one becomes a recipient of eternal life, meaning they ARE SAVED at that moment, they will never perish, so says Jesus.

How is this not eternal security?

So, what was Jesus promising, or just saying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus promised recipients of eternal life that they will never perish. John 10:28

And who are those who have eternal life according to John 5:24 NASB, ex-believers, or the presently believing?
I know you will not answer honestly. I think you're too proud to admit your doctrine is wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

your understanding of the Greek present tense is in error. The tense does not to "keep on believing out into the future", and I proved that from a Greek grammar text. It means "currently believes".

That's exactly what it means--he who currently and presently believes has eternal life. Jesus said the present, current believer is the one who has eternal life.

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)

But you say the not currently believing person has eternal life. We don't believe your doctrine because you directly contradict Jesus' own words in the passage above. And you have provided no explanation for your contradiction of Jesus except to make the ridiculous charge that I'm saying the present tense of 'believing' means 'never ending believing', lol. Trust me, I'm not Calvinist OSAS that I would make such an argument, lol!

But now that we have cleared the air about that and we both agree on the tense and usage of 'believing' in John 5:24 NASB explain to us why we should accept what you say, that the one who doesn't presently believe has eternal life, in contradiction to what Jesus says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is a 'gotcha' moment. You can't get out of it.
You can't get around the plain words of Jesus who said it is the believing (present tense) that has eternal life (John 5:24 NASB).

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly what it means--he who currently and presently believes has eternal life. Jesus said the present, current believer is the one who has eternal life.

No, it one who presently (now, currently, right now) has eternal life. And don't forget what Jesus also noted:
1. will not come into condemnation. This is exactly the same as Jn 10:28, the promise that recipients of eternal life will never perish
2. has passed from death to life.

Now, if one can lose salvation/eternal life, there MUST BE a verse, at least, that actually and plainly SAYS that one who has eternal life can lose it, or can come into condemnation, and that one who has eternal life can spiritually die again.

So, please show me the verses that support your view.

But you say the not currently believing person has eternal life.

See above for clear explanation. Basically, one who currently believes, right now, WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION.

There is NO REQUIREMENT to keep on keeping on.

We don't believe your doctrine because you directly contradict Jesus' own words in the passage above.

What about Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28? He promised RECIPIENTS of eternal life that they will never perish.

And you have provided no explanation for your contradiction of Jesus except to make the ridiculous charge that I'm saying the present tense of 'believing' means 'never ending believing', lol. Trust me, I'm not Calvinist OSAS that I would make such an argument, lol!

How about dealing with the clear promise of Jesus in Jn 10:28? Those who receive eternal life will never perish. That is a guarantee of never perishing. It's a promise and Jesus ALWAYS keeps His promises.

But now that we have cleared the air about that and we both agree on the tense and usage of 'believing' in John 5:24 NASB explain to us why we should accept what you say, that the one who doesn't presently believe has eternal life, in contradiction to what Jesus says.

I don't want ANYONE to accept what I say.

I DO want EVERYONE to accept what Jesus promised in Jn 10:28, it seems you're unwilling to address.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is a 'gotcha' moment. You can't get out of it.
You can't get around the plain words of Jesus who said it is the believing (present tense) that has eternal life (John 5:24 NASB).

No, what your side cannot get around is the very clear promise Jesus made to those He gives eternal life. They will never perish.

Nothing about having to continue to "presently believe".

Just the simple FACT of receiving eternal life means one will never perish.

 

[Gregg T]

This is a 'gotcha' moment. You can't get out of it.
You can't get around the plain words of Jesus who said it is the believing (present tense) that has eternal life (John 5:24 NASB).

It is the word "eternal" which carries the results of the current action into the future. Jesus gives life, and that kind of life is eternal, perpetual, into the ages. And if that were not enough, Jesus adds they will not perish; and if that were not enough, He says "never" perish.

"Never" come from two Greek words used together, one an objective negation (οὐ) and the other a subjective negation (μὴ). The phrase οὐ μὴ employed in Jn 10:28 is a double negative adding force to the negation; and it means not at all, never, not ever, in no case.