salvation and the loss of it

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing about having to continue to "presently believe".

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)
Read it. It's as plain as day. It is the person who is currently believing that has eternal life. That's why we're not buying your hyper-grace doctrine that says the not currently believing person has eternal life. It directly contradicts the plain words of Jesus. Hyper-grace doctrine is defeated by the plain words of Jesus himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is the word "eternal" which carries the results of the current action into the future. Jesus gives life, and that kind of life is eternal, perpetual, into the ages. And if that were not enough, Jesus adds they will not perish; and if that were not enough, He says "never" perish.

"Never" come from two Greek words used together, one an objective negation (οὐ) and the other a subjective negation (μὴ). The phrase οὐ μὴ employed in Jn 10:28 is a double negative adding force to the negation; and it means not at all, never, not ever, in no case.

No one is arguing what eternal life is.
What is being argued--from Jesus' own plain words in John 5:24 NASB--is it is the believing person who has eternal life, not the person who doesn't believe. That's why we don't believe the blasphemous hyper-grace doctrine you're pushing here. It directly contradicts the plain words of Jesus himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the very clear promise Jesus made to those He gives eternal life. They will never perish.

You're leaving out the part that the promise is to the believing person, not the person who doesn't believe.
That's why your doctrine is being rejected in this forum. It directly contradicts Jesus' own words.

 

[Gregg T]

No one is arguing what eternal life is.
What is being argued--from Jesus' own plain words in John 5:24 NASB--is it is the believing person who has eternal life, not the person who doesn't believe. That's why we don't believe the blasphemous hyper-grace doctrine you're pushing here. It directly contradicts the plain words of Jesus himself.

I interpret Scripture to draw a distinction between life and eternal life, and between believing in/about Christ and believing into Christ.

Believing in can be temporary; believing into is eternal.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I interpret Scripture to draw a distinction between life and eternal life, and between believing in/about Christ and believing into Christ.

Believing in can be temporary; believing into is eternal.

hello Gregg T, dirtfarmer here

Good post.
James 2:19 states; "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble." It is not enough to believe "Jesus is God's Son". "Believing into Christ" is we were dead in sin, but Christ paid our sin debt by way of the cross. Because we have died to self by and with his death, we have been given his life and it is Christ that lives in and through us.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is the word "eternal" which carries the results of the current action into the future. Jesus gives life, and that kind of life is eternal, perpetual, into the ages. And if that were not enough, Jesus adds they will not perish; and if that were not enough, He says "never" perish.

"Never" come from two Greek words used together, one an objective negation (οὐ) and the other a subjective negation (μὴ). The phrase οὐ μὴ employed in Jn 10:28 is a double negative adding force to the negation; and it means not at all, never, not ever, in no case.

 

[FreeGrace]

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB bold mine)
Read it. It's as plain as day. It is the person who is currently believing that has eternal life. That's why we're not buying your hyper-grace doctrine that says the not currently believing person has eternal life. It directly contradicts the plain words of Jesus. Hyper-grace doctrine is defeated by the plain words of Jesus himself.

Abusing the present tense in John 5:24 doesn't prove anything. Jesus was very clear about who will never perish. Those He gives eternal life. Jn 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

No one is arguing what eternal life is.
What is being argued--from Jesus' own plain words in John 5:24 NASB--is it is the believing person who has eternal life, not the person who doesn't believe. That's why we don't believe the blasphemous hyper-grace doctrine you're pushing here. It directly contradicts the plain words of Jesus himself.

No one has the right to dismiss or ignore ALL the words of Jesus. And Jn 10:28 refutes your abuse of the present tense in Jn 5:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"the very clear promise Jesus made to those He gives eternal life. They will never perish."

You're leaving out the part that the promise is to the believing person, not the person who doesn't believe.

It seems you're missing the ENTIRE point of Jesus' promise.

On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life ONLY, one will never perish.

If your your view was correct, this is what Jesus SHOULD (WOULD) HAVE SAID:
"I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they keep believing, they will never perish."

Is it really not clear to everyone that Jesus made NO conditional clauses in His promise?

His promise was to those who RECEIVE eternal life. Not to those who keep believing.

That's why your doctrine is being rejected in this forum. It directly contradicts Jesus' own words.

The opposite is true. Those who reject what I have posted are in direct contradiction with Jesus' own words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems you're missing the ENTIRE point of Jesus' promise.

On the basis of RECEIVING eternal life ONLY, one will never perish.

The simple fact that Jesus says in John 5:24 NASB that it is the believing person who has eternal life is in such direct contradiction to Hypergrace doctrine that I see why it is necessary for that doctrine to change John 5:24 NASB from a simple statement about who has eternal life (the believing, not the unbelieving) to a statement about when one gets eternal life without regard to if they are presently believing (which instantly defeats the present tense Jesus used, but why worry about details,right? Lol.).

So, once again we have Freegrace/Hypergrace doctrine in checkmate. It has no where to move....and it can't stay where it's at (that's what a checkmate is for those who don't play chess).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jn 10:28 refutes your abuse of the present tense in Jn 5:24.

I understand the present tense in John 5:24 NASB exactly the way you do--'presently and currently believing', just as you said it means. But I know since Freegrace doctrine can not get out of the jam that John 5:24 NASB presents to the argument that the 'former believer has eternal life' you will continue to accuse me of changing the present tense to some other tense.

See folks, Freegrace doctrine is trying to change Jesus' plain statement about who has eternal life into a statement about when a person receives eternal life (without regard to having to presently and currently believe in order to have that eternal life now). But a simple read of the verse shows that to be a gasping, grasping, flailing attempt to make an erroneous Freegrace doctrine somehow true:

"he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life..." (John 5:24 NASB)

Who has eternal life? The one who (presently) hears and believes. Not the one who doesn't (presently) hear and believe, as Freegrace doctrine claims.

 

[Nathan]

No one has the right to dismiss or ignore ALL the words of Jesus. And Jn 10:28 refutes your abuse of the present tense in Jn 5:24.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We see than it is the sheep that hear His voice, and who follow Him, are the ones He gives eternal life. That looks present tense to me.

We can't dismiss the fact He said His sheep follow Him - right?

 

[FreeGrace]

The simple fact that Jesus says in John 5:24 NASB that it is the believing person who has eternal life is in such direct contradiction to Hypergrace doctrine that I see why it is necessary for that doctrine to change John 5:24 NASB from a simple statement about who has eternal life (the believing, not the unbelieving) to a statement about when one gets eternal life without regard to if they are presently believing (which instantly defeats the present tense Jesus used, but why worry about details,right? Lol.).

The lol is not on my views, but yours. There is NOTHING in John 5:24 about having to continue to believe in order to keep having eternal life. That idea is a perversion of the Greek present tense. It NEVER means that. Ever. And you've not shown that it does.

So, once again we have Freegrace/Hypergrace doctrine in checkmate.

No. The checkmate is on your theology. Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life (I give them eternal life) will never perish in John 10:28.

That what means is that once eternal life is given to a person, Jesus promises that they will never perish. This promise is also found in Jn 5:24, as long as one doesn't pervert and abuse the present tense.

The present tense speaks about an action that is "currently happening", NOT an action that is on-going out into the future.

And, Jesus promised that those believe "right now", will NOT come into condemnation. That's a FUTURE concept. "will not" in the future come into condemnation.

So, the view of loss of salvation is checkmated DIRECTLY by Jesus' clear words in both John 5:24 and 10:28.

Checkmate. Game over.

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand the present tense in John 5:24 NASB exactly the way you do--

No you don't, and I've shown WHY your understanding is incorrect.

'presently and currently believing', just as you said it means.

But it does NOT mean to "keep on believing" or "continue to believe out into the future" as your claim insinuates.

iow, from simply believing right now, one is promised that they:
1. HAVE eternal life
2. WILL NOT come into condemnation (in the future)
3. HAS passed from death to life

Who has eternal life?

The who believes right now, or currently.

The one who (presently) hears and believes.

OK

Not the one who doesn't (presently) hear and believe, as Freegrace doctrine claims.

No, that is entirely wrong.

I'll give an example of your flawed logic.

As you read this post "right now", or "currently", or "presently", let's say someone somewhere on earth places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. That means they are saved, justified, forgiven, possess eternal life.

So, from this very MOMENT OF TIME, that person WILL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION (ever), and HAS PASSED FROM death to life.

Got it? That's what the present tense means. It means an action that is occurring right now, or presently or currently.

Yet, you've abused that tense to mean to "keep on presently believing" by your insistence that if a believer ceases to believe IN THE FUTURE, they cease to:
1. have eternal life
2. will com into judgment
3. will pass back to death from life

So, you're treating the Greek present tense like some kind of warped future tense; action that continues into the future.

And, as many posts as I've posted regarding John 10:28 and NO RESPONSE, it's clear that that verse checkmates your view.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

We see than it is the sheep that hear His voice, and who follow Him, are the ones He gives eternal life. That looks present tense to me.

We can't dismiss the fact He said His sheep follow Him - right?

That isn't even the issue in v.28.

It doesn't matter HOW one becomes a recipient of eternal life. So go and have that argument if you wish.

The whole point of v.28 is the FACT that the BASIS FOR NEVER PERISHING is simply to receive eternal life.

It should be obvious that for those who receive eternal life the very fact that they HAVE eternal life means they cannot and never will perish.

That is the definition of eternal security.

So, eternal security is based on receiving eternal life.

If you wish to discuss how one receives eternal life, start a new thread.

But for the purposes of this thread, eternal security is based on receiving eternal life. Simple.

 

[reba]

How/why does one want to believe John 10:28 stands alone.. unless the context proves it does not say what a point of view wishes it did?

 

[Nathan]

That isn't even the issue in v.28.

It doesn't matter HOW one becomes a recipient of eternal life. So go and have that argument if you wish.

The whole point of v.28 is the FACT that the BASIS FOR NEVER PERISHING is simply to receive eternal life.

It should be obvious that for those who receive eternal life the very fact that they HAVE eternal life means they cannot and never will perish.

That is the definition of eternal security.

So, eternal security is based on receiving eternal life.

If you wish to discuss how one receives eternal life, start a new thread.

But for the purposes of this thread, eternal security is based on receiving eternal life. Simple.

Do you believe that He gives eternal life to those which are not His sheep? Does anyone other than His sheep have eternal security?

I simply posted two verses that are written at the same time, said by the same Person - at the same time. I'm not making them anything other than what they are.

 

[FreeGrace]

How/why does one want to believe John 10:28 stands alone.. unless the context proves it does not say what a point of view wishes it did?

v.28 is a factual statement and needs no context to clarify it. Recipients of the gift of eternal life will never perish. That is exactly what His promise is about.

So, one must prove that that wasn't His promise in order to continue to believe in loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe that He gives eternal life to those which are not His sheep? Does anyone other than His sheep have eternal security?

No, and no. I'm actually shocked at this question. My posts have been clear enough that these kinds of questions are a waste of time.

 

[Nathan]

No, and no. I'm actually shocked at this question. My posts have been clear enough that these kinds of questions are a waste of time.

Do you believe His sheep follow Him?